So, when you're gaming, what do you prefer from your villains:

1. When villains have a motivation and justification from their own point of view of what they're doing, and basically think that what they're doing is right in some sense?
(ie. Braniac wants to take over the universe because only he is capable of establishing order, Xu Huang really believes that Cao Cao is the only hope for civilization, the Saxons feel that it is their right given to them by their gods to conquer the british people, serial killer dude is crazy and thinks that he has to collect all those spleens in order to stop the PBS Mind Control Satellites, etc)

or

2. Villains are just Evil, they know it, and they like it that way?

And does this answer change in terms of henchmen or non-humans? Should orcs have motivation in D&D? Or should they just be Orcs? Is that motivation enough?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo, when you're gaming, what do you prefer from your villains:

1. When villains have a motivation and justification from their own point of view of what they're doing, and basically think that what they're doing is right in some sense?
(ie. Braniac wants to take over the universe because only he is capable of establishing order, Xu Huang really believes that Cao Cao is the only hope for civilization, the Saxons feel that it is their right given to them by their gods to conquer the british people, serial killer dude is crazy and thinks that he has to collect all those spleens in order to stop the PBS Mind Control Satellites, etc)

or

2. Villains are just Evil, they know it, and they like it that way?

And does this answer change in terms of henchmen or non-humans? Should orcs have motivation in D&D? Or should they just be Orcs? Is that motivation enough?

RPGPundit

For me, #1.

-clash

Quote from: RPGPundit1. When villains have a motivation and justification from their own point of view of what they're doing, and basically think that what they're doing is right in some sense?

I give you the corporate executives of Enron, circa 2000: "We're going to fuck grandma in the ass!"  They had motive and justification from their point of view, but they also knew that what they were doing was very, very wrong.

Quote2. Villains are just Evil, they know it, and they like it that way?

Again, I give you the same Enron execs, for the very same reasons.  They knew they were evil and they liked it that way.

So, basically, I don't see it as an either-or situation.  Sometimes evil people feel totally justified in doing what they do, but they're also totally aware of how depraved it is, and they like it that way.  So there's a third axis that I use when characterising villains.

!i!

Mostly 1, but I'm willing to admit that some people are willing to consider themselves evil because of a transgressive thrill from doing so.

Quote from: RPGPundit1. When villains have a motivation and justification from their own point of view of what they're doing, and basically think that what they're doing is right in some sense?

As a rule, I prefer these sorts of nuanced NPCs, someone with complex but strong beliefs but may run counter to the characters'. [I don't have "opposition" or "bad guys" in my games, obviously, because it's not up to me to decide who they oppose.] But as you point out, fantasy includes a large variety of possible motivations, some of which are so alien to us that they may as well be Just Evil.

The guardsman who pockets your Magic MacGuffin isn't just a two-dimensional dickhead, he's a tragic single father trying to support his five surviving children. But the lich-king, who just "wants a home for his people," is a member of a "species" which reproduces not by intercourse, but by death: it doesn't matter how much he explains, "Look, I'm just supporting life formed on negative energy, I'm not A Bad Guy," he's still just going to look like a bad guy. But I like to have realistic motivations for them, anyway.

I suppose I do differ when it's just minor characters; as much as I'd love to have every character in the game world planned out in advance, with all their motivations intact, sometimes the guard is just a guard because Lord English would have a guard in his chambers. If the guard becomes important, if something starts happening around him, I try to weave a complex tapestry on the spot, but I do not always succeed.

Hi!
  I think its a mix. Some NPCs are there as window dressing. They set the tone of the game, test a mechanic or generally make a point. these need to fill their role, but don't need to be fleshed out. City Guards, whether dull-witted slackers or feisty extortionists are two-dimensional and really don't need a 3rd dimension, unless there is something else going on there (like they are the mastermind behind some grander plot than rob the guys coming into the city).
  But, BBEG, and even other players in a more complex story need to have more depth, in my opinion...

1... it's not all that hard to make their motivations up, so why not...

But 2. can also be interesting when done right (I am not sure if it is considered to be right, but it can be turned into some sort of absurd kafkasque existetional horror)

Typically I'd go with #1, with the caveat that some characters would consider self-proclaimed evil to be motivation enough.

As others say, a mix is best.  I lean toward your choice #1 most often, most especially for longer, more involved arcs.

But sometimes I like having a black-and-white situation.  For example, when I'm running a fantasy game, I like having my goblins just be goblins: evil dudes whose job is to spread evil in the most evil fashion possible.  I don't need an ecology of goblinkind or some nuanced examination of how the adventurers are the "real" monsters for slaughtering innocent orc babies and their wetnurses.  If I want a 3 dimensional villain, I'll use a human instead.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaSometimes evil people feel totally justified in doing what they do, but they're also totally aware of how depraved it is, and they like it that way.  So there's a third axis that I use when characterising villains.

This.  I like a mix of #1 and #3.

Sometimes people feel justified; sometimes they just want something.  For minions, it's usually the same way.  Monsters are still monsters, though.

Generally, I'm all about #1.

Not that my players give a solitary rat fuck about that, so it might as well be #2.

In the end, two wins by default more often than not...

#1 for my group. Even for Orcs....

Esp for splatter campaigns, my players like some motivations behind the evil acts. Although there have been a few "I'm just an asshole" villains , they are normally the lead goon or second tier villains....never the Big Bad.

Edit: An example would be the villains from the Rock. You got Ed Harris whose doing some pretty fucked up things because of his beliefs....than you got the two whackjobs towards the end of the movie who are just dicks.

Regards,
David R

Is there an option for people who know that they're doing a bad thing, don't enjoy it, but do it because they're weak?

Because even both of these options together don't cover the full gamut of my villains.  I think if you add in the weakness, you're getting close.

Gleeful unrepentant evil is the only sort of evil that has any place in my games.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo, when you're gaming, what do you prefer from your villains:

1. When villains have a motivation and justification from their own point of view of what they're doing, and basically think that what they're doing is right in some sense?
(ie. Braniac wants to take over the universe because only he is capable of establishing order, Xu Huang really believes that Cao Cao is the only hope for civilization, the Saxons feel that it is their right given to them by their gods to conquer the british people, serial killer dude is crazy and thinks that he has to collect all those spleens in order to stop the PBS Mind Control Satellites, etc)

or

2. Villains are just Evil, they know it, and they like it that way?

And does this answer change in terms of henchmen or non-humans? Should orcs have motivation in D&D? Or should they just be Orcs? Is that motivation enough?

RPGPundit

I want both, depending on the villain. Having all NPCs of a certain stripe work the same way smashes my realism radar.