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Author Topic: Chivalry and Sorcery  (Read 5048 times)

chirine ba kal

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Chivalry and Sorcery
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2017, 03:49:45 PM »
Ah, "Bireme and Galley"...

Still have my copy, along with several sets of the ship plans mounted on foamcore. They are superb for boarding actions and, along with "Sea Steeds and Wave Riders" (I have multiple sets of that, as well, also mounted on foamcore) quite possibly the very best thing for same. The rules themselves, on the other hand, are a very mixed bag. The ship handling and movement is good, and plays well, but the ship-to-ship combat rules re kinda weak and seem under-developed. Since I'd assume the use of C&S for the actual boarding action combat, it does work, but as a stand-alone game I don't think that it does. One would be better off using a specialist set of naval rules for the maritime stuff, and one's favorite RPG for the melees.

jhkim

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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2017, 04:35:02 PM »
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;949718
With regard to the 'best' edition I'd suggest that 2nd is probably the way to go. It loses the small typeface and replaces one volume with three but the majority of the material that makes C&S so good remains. My copy of the Red book fell apart from use over time but the three volume 2nd ed has certainly stood up better. The box often gets damaged but keeps the books in decent condition. You are likely to pay quite a bit for a copy in good condition but they do come up every now and again on eBay etc.

The old Loyal Order of Chivalry and Sorcery archive can be found at http://web.archive.org/web/20010721022411/locs.org/ and there's a forum at http://chivalrysorcery.myfastforum.org/index.php which isn't very active but has some useful/interesting material hidden away.
I've only briefly seen the other editions, but I liked my 2nd edition a lot - and the other editions didn't look very compelling. On the other hand, I've only played a short adventure with it many years ago - so I'm not all that sure about it.

I liked reading the magic rules - particularly alchemy and witchcraft - but didn't get to use them much in actual play.

David Johansen

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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2017, 12:47:26 AM »
Quote from: trechriron;949857
I am not; Renton, WA USA. I met the Professor in Las Vegas, NV I lived for 6 years but moved back to WA 3 years ago.

Oddly enough I was born in Renton.  My Dad was a chemical engineer at Boeing in 1970.  He got laid off and moved to Utah, then Colorado Springs and from there to Calgary Alberta Canada.  It made a right mess of my citizenships.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;949859
Ah, "Bireme and Galley"...

Still have my copy, along with several sets of the ship plans mounted on foamcore. They are superb for boarding actions and, along with "Sea Steeds and Wave Riders" (I have multiple sets of that, as well, also mounted on foamcore) quite possibly the very best thing for same. The rules themselves, on the other hand, are a very mixed bag. The ship handling and movement is good, and plays well, but the ship-to-ship combat rules re kinda weak and seem under-developed. Since I'd assume the use of C&S for the actual boarding action combat, it does work, but as a stand-alone game I don't think that it does. One would be better off using a specialist set of naval rules for the maritime stuff, and one's favorite RPG for the melees.

I've got Sea Law for Rolemaster 2 / War Law.  I've used War Law once and I could write a long dissertation on the things that are awesome about it and the things that are annoying / dreadful about it.  I almost wonder if any of the authors had actually played any wargames before.  There are endless rules about special skills for units and very limited rules for actually raising regiments.  The combat charts are mathematically derived from Arms Law so you have a full page table for each weapon type.  But for an rpg, keeping the battlemap down to a basic 8.5 x 11 hex grid side map is pretty brilliant.  Anyhow it worked fairly well when we used it, but, while I can see the value as an rpg adjunct, I can't really see wanting to wargame with it.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 12:53:31 AM by David Johansen »
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Larsdangly

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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2017, 01:50:12 AM »
Once you've written a couple of games it is easy to spot things that almost certainly got written and published without ever seriously play testing...

GameDaddy

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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2017, 11:55:08 PM »
Quote from: David Johansen;949391
Well, since The Pundit is talking about authentic medieval rpgs I thought I'd start a thread on the grand daddy of them all, Chivalry and Sorcery.  

Oh well, anyhow, I'm known for my love of baroque and bizarre systems and I'm a big fan of knights and castles and such like. I won't deny that C&S somewhat inspired The Arcane Confabulation.  So, are there any C&S fans around here?  Did anyone get second edition?  I always wanted it but that big, fat box was $35.  I've heard the saurians supplement was pretty good.  Did anyone use their "award winning" miniatures rules?  Bireme and Galley?

I'd like to hear about it.

o/ - Ran alot of Chivalry & Sorcery here. Played in a couple of other campaigns at about the same time. Picked up the Redbook in 1979, followed by the Chivalry & Sorcery Sourcebook. Character creation was highly complex 8.5/10 and took an excruciating amount of time, however produced an uber-realistic character complete with a highly detailed background. It was very Eurocentric, and Feudalistic, and there were extremely detailed rules on combat, skills use, and owning/managing acastle, tower, estate, or manor. This made it very attractive as an rpg especially from about 1980 on as AD&D began really deviating from the original intent of D&D, and TSR released a series of increasingly bizarre rulings concerning combat in play which didn't simulate real melee combat well. We suspected the AD&D magic was similarly skewed and looked to C&S to provide a much more believable medieval fantasy setting with more complete and balanced combat and magic rules. Ran games until about 1983 or so...

The detailed and descriptive critical hit tables were great! The family background inheritance & wealth generator was great, and the jousting and mounted combat rules were simply amazing in both detail and speediness in play (once the Jousting rules were learned). There was a lot to like about C&S back when TSR was just beginning to get that reputation as "They Sue Regularly" in regards to other game designers as well as their fans.

C&S also used an innovative acetate hexgrid that could be overlaid on any hand drawn or printed map to regulate outdoor movement in the game.

My friend Rodney had Saurians and Bireme & Galley, so he used them for his game worlds. I didn't have much exposure to either except when a Saurian army attacked our fortified manor and lands in one of the more memorable campaigns of his game. The Saurians were very deadly foes! Also I did generate a couple types of war galleys for my C&S games.

My other friend John had the Arden Campaign setting and the Destrier book (Because he liked the talking horses, LoL!)

That kind of how we got more out of our gaming budgets back in the day, Each person in our group would get a copy of core rules for a game, and then pick up different adventure modules or supplements which we would share, and even from time-to-time photocopy out of, cherry picking the best of the game rules and ideas for our games that was really a mashup of several rules and supplements sets.

I used the C&S Jousting rules for my D&D games as well. Once learned, it was ridiculously simple and fast to use in-play.

Also used these rules for a Tolkien campaign at least once.

Anyone can get C&S 4 core rules for free now, downloadable from the druvethrurpg website courtesy of Britannia Game Designs.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/142316/Chivalry--Sorcery-4th-Edition?affiliate_id=622563

Britannia Game Designs
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Brittannia-Game-Designs-Ltd-222021604475526/about/?ref=page_internal
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 12:07:03 AM by GameDaddy »
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CRKrueger

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« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2017, 11:59:56 PM »
How close is the 2000 Gamestuff "C&S Red Book" edition to the original 1977 First Edition?  It's supposed to be nearly identical just in a readable font.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

David Johansen

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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2017, 12:33:39 AM »
Huh, I think I heard about that, wonder if it's still available somewhere.

I'd like to rebuild my collection of obscure games one day.

At one point there was a pre-order up at my distributor for a new edition of C&S but it never materialized.  Last I checked Britannia's website was down, I'll have to check.

Okay some poking around yielded some articles dating to 2011 -2012 in which Britannia is announcing a new edition that has never materialized.  There are pdfs available http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php?keywords=Chivalry+%26+Sorcery&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=&x=0&y=0

and then there is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_(C%26S)

Which looks to be a fan project approaching 900 pages but lacking the official rights while having the creator's blessing.  I know there was some nastiness around the third to fourth edition transition and that the creators had a falling out but I don't know any details.  From the articles one might infer that Wilf Backhaus wasn't really a supporter of Britannia's edition.

Oh well, that kind of stuff is why I mostly work on my own stuff.  No issues with rights.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 12:46:27 AM by David Johansen »
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Hermes Serpent

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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2017, 04:01:05 AM »
TBH I point out any appearance of The Red Book that I see to the IP holder Britannia Game Designs as they spent a lot of money defending their IP (in association with Ed before his death) against the Red Book and other attempts to infringe upon their ownership of C&S.

Wilf certainly had his own ideas about fresh editions but I believe that the acrimony was resolved before his death.

BGD despite occasional attempts to move on a new edition seem to have lost momentum (I know that the owners lost a child to an unfortunate household accident some time back and that seems to be behind a lot of their malaise).

CRKrueger

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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2017, 06:57:19 AM »
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;950219
TBH I point out any appearance of The Red Book that I see to the IP holder Britannia Game Designs as they spent a lot of money defending their IP (in association with Ed before his death) against the Red Book and other attempts to infringe upon their ownership of C&S.

Wilf certainly had his own ideas about fresh editions but I believe that the acrimony was resolved before his death.

BGD despite occasional attempts to move on a new edition seem to have lost momentum (I know that the owners lost a child to an unfortunate household accident some time back and that seems to be behind a lot of their malaise).

Are they making money by selling previous editions they have rights to or are they just quashing all other editions because it's not the one they want to sell?

If they'll sell me 1e I'll buy it from them.  If they don't, that's their choice not mine, and if they think they can disappear it from history, they can go fuck themselves.

The 2000 version I have was released for free by the creator of C&S, Wilf, under license.  I've never seen the continually expanding fan versions.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 07:02:34 AM by CRKrueger »
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Hermes Serpent

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« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2017, 07:53:02 AM »
I am not a lawyer and don't know the terms of the licence they hold but your attitude seems needlessly antagonistic to the concept of IP ownership.

CRKrueger

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« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2017, 08:23:41 AM »
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;950256
I am not a lawyer and don't know the terms of the licence they hold

Here you go...
Quote from: C&S Red Book 2000 edition page 2
Legal Notices:All additional material and changes comprising The C&S Red Book ©2000 Gamestuff Inc, All Rights Reserved. The first edition of Chivalry & Sorcery ©1977 by Wilf Backhaus and Edward Simbalist. This electronic edition is produced under license from Wilf K. Backhaus, Maple Leaf Games Ltd and Brittannia Game Designs Ltd by Gamestuff Inc.  Chivalry & Sorcery is a trade mark used under license from Brittannia Game Designs Ltd. C&S Red Book is a trade mark of  Gamestuff Inc. who also claims all unique characters, character names, locations, and unique spell names in the text as trade marks. C&S is a trade mark of Wilf K. Backhaus and is used with permission.

You may be thinking of all the fan C&S Redbooks...
  • C&S Redbook 2 - Phoenix Edition
  • C&S Redbook 3 - Chimera Edition
  • C&S Redbook 4 - Gorgon Edition
  • C&S Redbook 5 - Manticore Edition
  • C&S Redbook 6 - Hydra Edition
  • C&S Redbook 7 - Minotaur Edition
...these are the unlicensed fan releases which got BGD on the warpath.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;950256
but your attitude seems needlessly antagonistic to the concept of IP ownership.
and you seem to be quite overinvolved for someone who has no legal or economic standing, to the point of a veiled threat to those who might distribute a freely released product by the original author under license from the current IP holder.  I have no problem with someone making money off of IP they own.  Hiding behind IP law to effectively burn books is where we have the problem.

Look up the licensing information yourself:
Google "c&s red book pdf" or just search on Scribd.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Hermes Serpent

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« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2017, 11:01:16 AM »
As an author of some material published under the C&S trademark I do have some standing regarding the product. However I misunderstood the Red Book you wrote about as the unauthorised fan produced Red Books which I believe BGD have taken action against in the past.

I was referring to BGD's licence from Ed and Wilf where BGD own the trademarks to the name and product identity rather than that of the Red Book licenced via Wilf.

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« Reply #27 on: March 11, 2017, 03:26:38 AM »
C&S certainly had its charm, and remained popular in Alberta long after its star had faded elsewhere, thanks to the enthusiasm of Ed Simbalist. I hung out with him once. I wouldn't say it was exactly 'medieval authentic', but it was in some ways slightly more medieval than D&D.
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Khepfrish

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« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2019, 04:51:40 PM »
I realize that C&S is a bit of a niche game these days. Indeed, most would say that it always was. Neverthless, if you want to relive your 1970s RPG youthful vigour then you might like to know that I'm selling by 1st edition rules, in good condition, on eBay.

Brad

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« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2019, 05:31:03 PM »
Quote from: Khepfrish;1070864
I realize that C&S is a bit of a niche game these days. Indeed, most would say that it always was. Neverthless, if you want to relive your 1970s RPG youthful vigour then you might like to know that I'm selling by 1st edition rules, in good condition, on eBay.

Link please. My copy is falling apart.

EDIT: Probably gonna be deleted as I don't think Pundit allows this per the rules.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 05:35:04 PM by Brad »