Quote from: ffilz;1082883This really gets to the meat, what do we mean by "D&D Type Game"? To me, kill things and take their treasure while exploring dungeons, and eventually gaining enough power to start being important in the setting is D&D. Alter that too much and you're playing a different game...

Or if "D&D Type Game" is a synonym for RPG (which it is for some folks...), then find a rule set that does what you want.


I'm still not quite sure what you're after. You just want to play D&D without the level gaining?

Frank

So, as the campaign progresses; the fighter gets better at melee and ranged combat, the rogue gets better at thief skills and backstabbing, the cleric gets better at turning away the undead and healing people, and the wizard learns and casts more spells.  But why are they harder to kill than a T-Rex, at high levels?  Exaggerated HP, due to repeatedly leveling up; is the reason.  

Why would their body become that tough to kill?  They already gain protection through magical resistances, and better saving throws.  Why so much HP inflation too?

Quote from: Razor 007;1082891So, as the campaign progresses; the fighter gets better at melee and ranged combat, the rogue gets better at thief skills and backstabbing, the cleric gets better at turning away the undead and healing people, and the wizard learns and casts more spells.  But why are they harder to kill than a T-Rex, at high levels?  Exaggerated HP, due to repeatedly leveling up; is the reason.  

Why would their body become that tough to kill?  They already gain protection through magical resistances, and better saving throws.  Why so much HP inflation too?

That doesn't happen in Ars Magica, Savage Worlds, GURPS, or most variants of Fudge.

You can play all of those like D&D, but for some people, not having HP means the game doesn't feel like D&D to them. At which point I would then recommend DCC RPG, or an OSR game since they keep the HP much lower (DCC caps out at level 10).

Quote from: Razor 007;1082891So, as the campaign progresses; the fighter gets better at melee and ranged combat, the rogue gets better at thief skills and backstabbing, the cleric gets better at turning away the undead and healing people, and the wizard learns and casts more spells.  But why are they harder to kill than a T-Rex, at high levels?  Exaggerated HP, due to repeatedly leveling up; is the reason.  

Why would their body become that tough to kill?  They already gain protection through magical resistances, and better saving throws.  Why so much HP inflation too?

Well, one common point is that their HP doesn't reflect actual toughness of the body, rather, within the abstract combat system of D&D, it represents something other than raw resistance to injury.

But ok, if hit points are the only issue, then either keep them fixed, or cap them at some number of hit dice that works better in your mind.

If that is the only change made, you can probably otherwise keep the game feeling like D&D. Well, except for the greater ability to resist damage that DOES play into how D&D plays out. You may want to adjust dragon breath. If PCs can't get to 45+ hit points, an AD&D Ancient Huge Red Dragon having an 88 point breath means dead characters even if they make their saves. You would also want to cap the damage of spells like fireball.

But I feel like you keep dodging the question of what does "D&D Type Game" mean to you?

Frank

Frank

Quote from: Razor 007;1082891Why would their body become that tough to kill?  They already gain protection through magical resistances, and better saving throws.  Why so much HP inflation too?

HP isn't body toughness. Never has been. As you level, you gain the ability to survive blows that would kill lesser men, but how you survive those blows is a combination of many factors that are all abstracted into HP (luck, divine blessings, ability to dodge, last second awareness, etc). But most importantly, PCs gain HP so they can fight bigger monsters and keep going through the adventure (aka, become fantasy superheroes).

When I run Red Book games, PCs got max HP because Red Book healing is scarce. You need a 2nd level Cleric to cast Cure Light Wounds, otherwise its slow natural healing. But I wasn't going for a high fantasy campaign. I wanted something very mortal.

Honestly? Don't think so!

Yes. And I often do. It's really hard to break out above 6th level in my BtB games. If I want to run a "hero" level game rather than novice level, I generally start PCs 3rd-6th level. And yeah, not much advancement after that.

You are an adventurer who occasionally learns new moves, gains or improves new skills, and acquires better equipment; through exploration and conquest.  You HP top out pretty quickly, but otherwise it's a lot like D&D.  You never become nearly invincible.  You are always mortal, but ever learning and improving.

The in-D&D solution is called E6, I believe. The disadvantage to it is that monsters have not been built for PCs with those altered statblocks, so you need to adapt any of the tougher ones.

Quote from: Razor 007;1082854The drive would be learning, growing, acquiring, experiencing, etc.  Becoming more wise, more skilled, more capable, etc.; but not becoming 10 times harder to kill, by the end of a 12 month campaign.

I think this would make for a compelling OSR product IF you could demonstrate to players the value proposition of how you level up. True20 didn't have escalating "hit points". I think it's plausible and more so, I think it would need to be built into the premise of the setting. A more gritty world where magic truly sets apart the legendary from the masses.

Edit to add:

So when leveling up, you would;
1) Get better at some skills.
2) Learn a new class ability. or...
3) Learn a new spell. or...
4) Learn more about your ancestry learning a new racial ability.

None of the components would increase hit points, AC, etc. Only giving you new things that improve your capabilities or add new ones. Yes?

P.S.S
There is a d20 variant called Radiance d20 that has you leveling up in a race, a class and an archetype, picking one thing from each. It still has escalating vitality. It could make for a solid starting point however. It is OGL.

Good point about True20.  That system did a good job starting your PC tough enough but not getting too powerful long term.

Start a BECMI/RC or AD&D 1E game at around name level, and the effect will be very similar.  The characters are slow to advance, and don't gain many more hit points with each level.

Quote from: Razor 007;1082891Why would their body become that tough to kill?  They already gain protection through magical resistances, and better saving throws.  Why so much HP inflation too?

Jesus Christ we have to re-tread this damn subject again?

For the ad-nausium-th time. HP in D&D are NOT meat until you get down to the last few blows as it were. They are stamina, luck, skill, exhaustion, etc, and some meat in there too.

A high level fighter can outlast because they have trained, are more experienced, etc. They can dodge, deflect a blow, parry, roll with it, whatever where a starting character knows none of the survival skills.

Quote from: Omega;1083310...HP in D&D are NOT meat...

Except when it is. Like when attacks have injury poison. If you are at full HP and get hit for 30 of 100 HP in damage with a poisoned claw, then the claw did hit you and gave you an injury to inflict the poison.

IMHO: I think HP is a bad mechanic and makes games inherently more complex. I think it only makes sense when things like Sci-Fi shields have HP.

Quote from: Omega;1083310Jesus Christ we have to re-tread this damn subject again?

For the ad-nausium-th time. HP in D&D are NOT meat until you get down to the last few blows as it were. They are stamina, luck, skill, exhaustion, etc, and some meat in there too.

A high level fighter can outlast because they have trained, are more experienced, etc. They can dodge, deflect a blow, parry, roll with it, whatever where a starting character knows none of the survival skills.

Moreso now than in any other edition, too. When you run 5E, if you like to narrate injuries you should simply refrain from any broken bones and sword gash descriptions until you know the PCS are A: down to their last 10% HP and B: have exausted their recovery hit dice. Until then it's all just "I feel a little fatigued from the monster waving it's club at me."

Which ironically is why I have burned out on 5E. As recently as Pathfinder you could usually assume that damage dealt = something unpleasant.