TheRPGSite

My younger brother is a "normal" roleplayer.  That is to say, he goes online to download porn and chat on the Myspace or whatever the fuck the kids are doing these days. He emphatically does NOT go online to look up shit about RPGs.

In other respects, my brother is an extremely dedicated gamer.  He roleplays on a weekly basis, and has been doing so for over 5 years now.

The other day, I asked him what RPGs he actually knew about. He knew about D20 (which to him is D&D, D20 modern, Spycraft, Star Wars D20, and "others"), and in fact D20 is the only system he really wants to play ever (he's far more of a D20 absolutist than I am); and he has neither heard of nor wants to hear about "weird variants" like True20. He doesn't trust them.
He knows about RIFTS and palladiums' various old games, even the ones that have been out of print for years.
He knows about Call of Cthulhu, and about Shadowrun, and about Star Frontiers (?!), and he knows about Warhammer though he doesn't care for it.  He knows about "World of Darkness" though not any particular games in it, much less the difference between first and second edition, and he has no interest in playing it.  For him, WoD is the periphery, alternative stuff on the fringe of gaming.

And that's basically it. Anything else that he might know about (ie. Qin) is only because I directly and recently introduced him to it.

So it strikes me that there really are two hobbies, utterly separate.  On the one hand, there's dudes like my brother, who know of four or five games and play one or two. And then there's the gamers who obsess about the games that only 0.1% of the world's gamers have ever heard of, not to mention the idiots on Forums who want to believe and claim that "Scion" or "spirit of the century" or "Truth and justice" are "basically mainstream".

The truth is that anything outside of those few games my brother mentioned (and one or two others possibly, like maybe GURPS) is not and will never be mainstream.  It is a testament to people's abilities to delude themselves to think anything else.

RPGPundit

QuoteSo it strikes me that there really are two hobbies, utterly separate. On the one hand, there's dudes like my brother, who know of four or five games and play one or two. And then there's the gamers who obsess about the games that only 0.1% of the world's gamers have ever heard of, not to mention the idiots on Forums who want to believe and claim that "Scion" or "spirit of the century" or "Truth and justice" are "basically mainstream".

You lost me at 'utterly separate'.  I've played D&D with members of both camps at the same table.

Most people I game with are like your brother in the regards mentioned here.

Even some of my RPG friends know and care shit about Internet discussions and RPG.net darlings. One of them owned two RPG stores.

Let alone the forge.

Internet RPG-talk is a hobby unto itself.

Quote from: SettembriniInternet RPG-talk is a hobby unto itself.

QFT.

Otherwise, I don't buy the camps bit. I was taught by a bunch of uber-obsessed geeks from the math charter school that my arts magnet school shared a building with. Said obsessive internetting geeks were strictly D20. My "normal" gaming group doesn't care what system "as long as I can play as a beermage." Which is hard for me to GM for, but... doable.

Quote from: jrientsYou lost me at 'utterly separate'.  I've played D&D with members of both camps at the same table.

So how the fuck is it that so many of the members of the second camp can actually believe shit like that "Dogs in the vinyard" has "Popular acclaim"?!

I mean, it strikes me that the type of guys that hang out at rpg.net at least appear by all of their posts to be UTTERLY FUCKING CLUELESS about the reality of what actual gamers (ie. 99.9% of them) actually like or have even heard of.

RPGPundit

Quote from: beejazzMy "normal" gaming group doesn't care what system ".

I think that Pundits point - and one I agree with - is that this is not the normal rpg group or player out there.

 There are D&D (and to a lesser extent) d20 players, and then there's everybody else.

 Yes, there are groups out there that play many games in addition to D&D/d20. But there are ten times as many groups that play just D&D.



.

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, it strikes me that the type of guys that hang out at rpg.net at least appear by all of their posts to be UTTERLY FUCKING CLUELESS about the reality of what actual gamers (ie. 99.9% of them) actually like or have even heard of.

This has been stated many times by others, and I firmly believe it: rpg.net members are not indicative of mainstream gaming -- the outspoken majority seem susceptible to gaming propaganda. That's not to say that other types of gamers are not -- many simply hear that a new cool D&D book is out and buy it because D&D is all the rage (the rage being limited to mainstream books in this case) -- but I would say that the real diehard gamers (mostly old-timers now) go into a FLGS look at the new stuff, and pick something up based on what looks cool to them.

I agree that the Internet RPG scene is a moniority in the wider gamer world, but I think it's the better of the two worlds.  The internet scene is vibrant, very vibrant, and full of options.

I feel sorry for the people who aren't exposed to some of the aweseom games out there.

I was in agreement until the rants and insults started to fly. And it almost went an entire post without them.

My group is mostly like your brother, although we mix in some RPG internet time into our porn schedules. I'm the only one that I know of who has heard of the various uncommon game titles, and even I have never played any of them.

I certainly don't think the groups are utterly seperate and incompatible. RPG tastes, like almost everything in life, run the gamut of variety. And like politics, it's possible to not be a fringe fanatic. I assume most of the people that have been exposed to both sides (and not insulted by one of them) tend to fall closer to the middle than the ends.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd then there's the gamers who obsess about the games that only 0.1% of the world's gamers have ever heard of, not to mention the idiots on Forums who want to believe and claim that "Scion" or "spirit of the century" or "Truth and justice" are "basically mainstream".

Eh, the largest chain of game stores in this country lists Scion: Hero as one of the recent bestsellers. In fact, the last time I checked their site, it was #1 on the list that's usually dominated by D&D and WoD.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo how the fuck is it that so many of the members of the second camp can actually believe shit like that "Dogs in the vinyard" has "Popular acclaim"?!

Because many people are stupid and/or self-delusional.  But that applies to both camps.

QuoteI mean, it strikes me that the type of guys that hang out at rpg.net at least appear by all of their posts to be UTTERLY FUCKING CLUELESS about the reality of what actual gamers (ie. 99.9% of them) actually like or have even heard of.

That's casting a pretty wide net.  Not that long ago I was the type of guy that hangs out at rpg.net.

Partly the situation at RPGnet the overrepresentation of the uberhobbyist distorts the picture (though one trip to EN World ought to clear that up) and partly at least some folks at RPGnet are trying to carve out a space where D&D isn't The Only Thing That Matters.  I have no objection to creating such a place, so long as everyone can keep persepctive.  Some folks can't.  It's just like the case of the fanboys who think they matter more than the zillion people who saw the Spider-Man movies in the theaters.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo how the fuck is it that so many of the members of the second camp can actually believe shit like that "Dogs in the vinyard" has "Popular acclaim"?!

Because it's what happens to be popular with the people they are familiar with.  It's the same way "polls" work, or did you really think they actually poll ever person in the nation?  They don't.  It's a representative sampling of a small cross section of the community, not necessarily the community as a whole, which, of course, is what you're complaining about; representative samplings of opinions from segments being passed off as representative samplings of opinions of the whole.

Problem is. .

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, it strikes me that the type of guys that hang out at rpg.net at least appear by all of their posts to be UTTERLY FUCKING CLUELESS about the reality of what actual gamers (ie. 99.9% of them) actually like or have even heard of.

What is an 'actual gamer'?  Is it the person who buys their games at Borders?  Is it the person who goes to a hobby shop to buy their games?  Is it the person that buys their games from an online vendor?*

More to the point what is a "mainstream" RPG?  Is is the commercial product produced en masse by a souless coporate leviathan or is it the product lovinging worked on by a gamer in their spare time?

(*) Or is it the person who actually plays the games?  Because, you know, not everyone that buys the games actually plays them.

hmm, is this news to anyone? Let me relate a little story I have told before but maybe some have not heard it. When I owned my stores it was a case that I dedicated myself and staff to promoting RPGs. That means we introduced a lot of people to gaming and we were able to carve a market out of the local population. The primary game we ran was a new hip gothy game called Vampire. We worked for years building the market. Many a time, I would hear people say, "My first game was Vampire. Tell me about D&D? How many dice do you get in a dice pool?"

The point is, people are "familiar" with the game they get introduced to first, play them most and it is that one they will think is "normal". D&D has the most players, widest market share and most shelf space. Yes, in the general population, it will be considered "normal" and have the largest mind share.

Bill

Quote from: Kester PelagiusMore to the point what is a "mainstream" RPG?  Is is the commercial product produced en masse by a souless coporate leviathan or is it the product lovinging worked on by a gamer in their spare time?

I love when language is so overly bias you can see it clearly. Good on ya, mate, for coming right out and almost answering the question - hell, it's almost rhetorical!

Quote from: Kester PelagiusBecause it's what happens to be popular with the people they are familiar with.  It's the same way "polls" work, or did you really think they actually poll ever person in the nation?  They don't.  It's a representative sampling of a small cross section of the community, not necessarily the community as a whole, which, of course, is what you're complaining about; representative samplings of opinions from segments being passed off as representative samplings of opinions of the whole.

All True. The problem is the sample is skewed - and that always ruins the poll. Ask any politician, or more impotantly their staff, and they can probably tell you exactly how to poll to get the answer you want.

In this case, how do you get a poll that says people are playing all sorts of games other than D&D?  Well, ask people who play all sorts of games othe than D&D - simple!

It's why this argument comes up over and over again - because nobody has good hard sales or marketing numbers, only speculation.  And while it's true that not eveyone who buys a game plays it, it's as close as you're going to get to any understanding of the market.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe truth is that anything outside of those few games my brother mentioned (and one or two others possibly, like maybe GURPS) is not and will never be mainstream.  It is a testament to people's abilities to delude themselves to think anything else.

Enh.  Most people I know listen to shit, commercial music, too.  I enjoy turning them on to stuff I had to go out of my way to find.

Your point appears to be that most people keep their taste planted firmly in their mouths.  Is that a virtue, or an insult?

!i!

There's some confusion of terms here.

When people say Scion is "mainstream," I suspect the argument is not about sales figures but about playstyle. As in, Scion is a mainstream game in all aspects but cash flow. Personally, I'd say it's actually a mainstream game through and through. By all accounts it's selling quite well. Unsurprisingly--it's clearly tailored to people who play mainstream games like WoD and Exalted.

When other people say DitV has popular appeal, I suspect the argument is about non-gamer appeal. As in, DitV is a game not for gamers (not even mainstream gamers) but for, uh, people-in-general. If that is indeed the point, then it remains to be proven.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaEnh.  Most people I know listen to shit, commercial music, too.  I enjoy turning them on to stuff I had to go out of my way to find.

Your point appears to be that most people keep their taste planted firmly in their mouths.  Is that a virtue, or an insult?

!i!

The flaw in your logic, sir, is the implied commercial music = shit music.  It's also interesting that you seem to define "stuff you had to go out of your way to find" as better or more worthy than commercial music.

And see, to that, I say bollocks.

You've simply substituted the decision of many people with yours, along the way implying that your tastes are better than the taste of all those other people. It's the height of arrogance.

Quote from: James J SkachI love when language is so overly bias you can see it clearly. Good on ya, mate, for coming right out and almost answering the question - hell, it's almost rhetorical!

We try.  But the battle against the soulless minions of corporate Orthodoxy is a thankless task and there are voracious swine laying in wait to devour the polished pearls of our endeavoringly effortless toil!  :insane:

Quote from: James J SkachIt's why this argument comes up over and over again - because nobody has good hard sales or marketing numbers, only speculation.  And while it's true that not eveyone who buys a game plays it, it's as close as you're going to get to any understanding of the market.

Which may be part of the problem.

The market is, naturally, sales driven.  Commercially trends in RPGs are gauged not on what people are actually playing but rather on sales figures.  Thus, if D20 is the big seller at Borders, the number crunchers look at the figures and, rightly or wrongly, assume that means D20 is popular.  They don't ask what other games or even if other games are stocked because they don't care.  Their only interest is in what is selling, not what people are actually playing.

I think that's where some people get confused.

Quote from: James J SkachThe flaw in your logic, sir, is the implied commercial music = shit music.  It's also interesting that you seem to define "stuff you had to go out of your way to find" as better or more worthy than commercial music.

No, you see, you didn't read that correctly.  I specifically wrote "shit, commercial music.  "Shit music" is the intent of that statment; "commercial" merely modifies that statement. The music is shit, whether it's commercial or not. I also didn't suggest that "stuff I had to go out of my way to find" is better or more worthy; I clearly stated that I simply enjoy turning them on to something they can't encounter when they don't look outside their accustomed sphere of influence.  Sometimes they like it, sometimes they hate it, but they come away with something more than they started with.

Now that I've spelled it out for you, apply that clarification to this discussion.  Go look for a fight somewhere else.

!i!

So Johnny Cash is shit?
Pink Floyd is shit?
The Beatles are shit (well, if you ask me they are, but that´s a different subject...)?

Sturgeon's Law: 95% of everything is crap.

But, please, actually read what I wrote.  Separate "shit" from "commercial".  Combine them where necessary or appropriate.

And veering wildly back on topic, I'll re-assert that proclaiming ignorance of anything outside the mainstream, commercial frame of reference as a virtue is some pretty specious thinking.  That seems to be the point of Pundit's original post, and a number of his follow-ups.

!i!

So the question remains:

Do you think D&D is commercial & shit?

Quote from: SettembriniSo the question remains:

Do you think D&D is commercial & shit?

That was never the question.  If you're trying to be provocative, you'll have to work harder.

If the purported "normal gamer" has never been exposed to any games outside of the local favorites, that's not a virtue -- that's a deficit.  The local favorites might be Exalted and NWoD like they are at one store I visit, or D&D and its attendant variants like at another store I visit.

How's that for staying on topic?

!i!

No, you´re dodging the question.

If D&D is a fantastic game, why should one try something different, when you´re having fun with it twice a week?

Please explain that.

D&D/D20 is Commercial, some people think its "shit"....but it still sells and keeps game stores going at times.

 Anything that has steady spurts of sales popularity and  that keeps getting me paychecks - I'm very  in favor of.
 - Even if I don't play it.

- Ed C.

I've dodged nothing.  Having fun playing the one game you've ever been exposed to?  Great.  Do you consider that limited exposure a virtue, though?  No, it's not.

See, Sett?  You really have to try harder.

!i!

Quote from: SettembriniNo, you´re dodging the question.

If D&D is a fantastic game, why should one try something different, when you´re having fun with it twice a week?

Please explain that.

Why not? What's wrong with trying something different? If I love Chinese food, for example, and eat it twice a week, it doesn't mean I want to eat it every day.

I mean really, why do these threads always devolve?

So searching around for a game because you are an unhappy camper is virtueous?

QuoteI mean really, why do these threads always devolve?                                                              __________________

Because people take too much pride in their geekdom and games-knowledge.

Quote from: SettembriniSo searching around for a game because you are an unhappy camper is virtueous?

 No, playing GURPS while donating to charity AND saving a damsel in distress  - all in less than 6 hours, THAT would be virtuous.

 But,  That would also be a different thread.

- Ed C.

Pretentiousness:
Art > Music > Film > Gaming > Sports
We're really not that bad ;)

Quote from: SettembriniSo searching around for a game because you are an unhappy camper is virtueous?

Where did you read that?

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditSo it strikes me that there really are two hobbies, utterly separate.  On the one hand, there's dudes like my brother, who know of four or five games and play one or two. And then there's the gamers who obsess about the games that only 0.1% of the world's gamers have ever heard of, not to mention the idiots on Forums who want to believe and claim that "Scion" or "spirit of the century" or "Truth and justice" are "basically mainstream".

The truth is that anything outside of those few games my brother mentioned (and one or two others possibly, like maybe GURPS) is not and will never be mainstream.  It is a testament to people's abilities to delude themselves to think anything else.

There are far more divisions than just two. I don't see the world in terms of 'mainstream', but in multiple different market groups of various sizes.

One of the things I found fascinating at The Forge and other game design threads was that they seemed to be rediscovering things that had existed in other disciplines, such as improv theatre, stage magic, and even product sales (convincing someone to buy into a premise is little different than convincing them to buy into anything else), from the beginning.

Here's where it gets curious. In most cases, the designers didn't discover these things by observing or being a part of these groups, but only through discussion within their OWN group. And the resulting games did not specifically appeal to anyone in those groups (such as improv actors, magicians, salespeople, or even GAMERS), but to people in a new KIND of group.

Now for a game to become 'mainstream', it needs to appeal to an existing group, like Vampire did. You can't just CREATE a group, you have to find and/or cultivate it. It could very well be that there's a HUGE market for Forge games, just that the individuals in that market are unaware of each other. You also can't target existing gamers because most of them already have a system of choice. In fact, the LAST people you want to target are existing gamers, at least if you want to create the next great RPG.

What I find frustrating is that it is EXTREMELY hard to get data on the average, non-obsessed, "I have a life outside of gaming" gamer, because a web search will only bring back links to the vocal minority, or very creative but very isolated art communities such as The Forge, RPG.net, and theRPGsite. So any data of the kind you shared is very useful.

Quote from: KoltarNo, playing GURPS while donating to charity AND saving a damsel in distress  - all in less than 6 hours, THAT would be virtuous.

What if the charity is Kevin Siembieda? :eek:

!i!

Quote from: KoltarNo, playing GURPS while donating to charity AND saving a damsel in distress  - all in less than 6 hours, THAT would be virtuous.

Donating -> Charity
Damsel-saving > Liberality, possibly Chastity
Playing GURPS -> Patience? ;)

Quote from: Kester PelagiusWhat is an 'actual gamer'?  

I thought we at therpgsite were actual gamers, and following that logic, we play Call of Cthulhu.

Numbers Here (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4780)

Real gamers play CoC, not D&D

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWhat if the charity is Kevin Siembieda? :eek:

!i!

 FUNNY!

 Of course ...I meant a REAL  recognizable charity

Quote from: RPGPunditSo how the fuck is it that so many of the members of the second camp can actually believe shit like that "Dogs in the vinyard" has "Popular acclaim"?!

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally have no illusions about the popularity of such games in my personal circle. Much like you and your brother, if my group knows about any games besides D20, WoD or Shadowrun, it's because I showed it to them. For what it's worth, I've played Capes with several of them and they liked it, and I've got several folks interested in Dogs.

So, y'know, it's just possible that people who haven't heard of obscure shit might in some cases be missing out on something they'd enjoy.

Peace,
-Joel

Back when I found chess interesting, I played it at least once a week for a few years. I was even in my JHS Chess Club for a time.

I have no idea what a Ruy Lopez Opening or a Sicilian Defense is (just found these terms now on Wikipedia). But people who invest passionately in the hobby do know what they are.

If they all of a sudden found a NEW manuver, then that might rock the niche hobbyist world. People on dedicated chess message boards, who talk daily about chess, would surely be talking about these new manuvers. Talking about their experiences with them in their local chess clubs, talking about engaging and defending against them.

And the rest of us chess players who aren't as passionate about the hobby? We'd have no fucking clue. If some chess enthusiast somewhere was talking about the importance of the Lasker-Bauer manuver, who am I to jump onto those boards and say "Hey fuckos! 99% of the world doesn't give a fuck! Your manuver isn't  popular with normal chess players, nor is it important!".

So why should I be bitter about chess hobbyists that are excited about their chess minutiae?

Why should gamers be bitter about gamer hobbyists that are excited about gaming minutiae? SCION is not "popular" or "making waves" with "normal gamers". However, it's 'popular' and 'making waves' with gamers that are passionate about gaming minutiae.

EDIT: It just seems that this problem is a grammatical one. Pundy is upset that people are leaving out the direct objects of their sentences:
"SCION is popular and is selling well." UNTRUE
"SCION is popular and is selling well with hardcore gamers obsessed with the minutiae of the gaming scene." TRUE
Problem is, "...with hardcore gamers obsessed with the minutiae of the gaming scene" is the always the implied direct object of all these self-congratulatory sentences. Some bitter people are not happy with it just being "implied" and want it Actually Etched Into every sentence on the Internet.  Good luck there.

-Andy

That makes a lot of sense.

But sadly, people do not really imply what you imply they imply. Those fuckers really believe for real in the "mass appeal" of, say Polaris or Wushu.

They totally lost the perspective that you so graciously gave them back.

Quote from: SettembriniBut sadly, people do not really imply what you imply they imply. Those fuckers really believe for real in the "mass appeal" of, say Polaris or Wushu.

So? Why does it matter?

Quote from: SettembriniBut sadly, people do not really imply what you imply they imply. Those fuckers really believe for real in the "mass appeal" of, say Polaris or Wushu.

"People."  Which people?  All people?  Some people?  Specific people who can be identified by name?  Does the enemy in your imaginary war have a face?

!i!

Quote from: SettembriniThose fuckers really believe for real in the "mass appeal" of, say Polaris or Wushu.

They totally lost the perspective that you so graciously gave them back.

Did they, really?  Or are you just projecting?  

I'm not asking you to "find evidence" or other rhetorical BS, but I honestly think if I said to someone who loved Wushu and it was all they talked about (who was that guy from RPGNet? Only talked about Wushu, and how he hated gamers?), and in attempt to totally try to stamp out their enthusiasm said, "Hey, when you say 'Wushu is getting popular', you really mean, '...with a handful of gamers on RPGnet', right?" ...I really, truly don't think that they're blinded by love or obsession enough to say, "NO, I mean 'getting popular with EVERYONE' ".

It smells of painting fools with a "crazy brush". Which, admittedly, some folks who say stupid shit deserve sometimes.  But I really can't imagine that someone would really think that "Online passionate gamers" = "All gamers", when pressed to answer for their statements.

I think people are reading too much into others' words. Not adding that "indirectly implied Direct Object" above when it's clear that that's what they meant.

-Andy

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThat was never the question.  If you're trying to be provocative, you'll have to work harder.

If the purported "normal gamer" has never been exposed to any games outside of the local favorites, that's not a virtue -- that's a deficit.  The local favorites might be Exalted and NWoD like they are at one store I visit, or D&D and its attendant variants like at another store I visit.

How's that for staying on topic?

!i!

I notice you failed to answer Sett's question.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditI notice you failed to answer Sett's question.

His question, and my answer, are immaterial to the discussion.  You're not very good at this either.  If you're going to shoehorn words into my mouth to create drama, you're going to have to try much harder.

!i!

Quote from: Andy KDid they, really?  Or are you just projecting?  

I'm not asking you to "find evidence" or other rhetorical BS, but I honestly think if I said to someone who loved Wushu and it was all they talked about (who was that guy from RPGNet? Only talked about Wushu, and how he hated gamers?), and in attempt to totally try to stamp out their enthusiasm said, "Hey, when you say 'Wushu is getting popular', you really mean, '...with a handful of gamers on RPGnet', right?" ...I really, truly don't think that they're blinded by love or obsession enough to say, "NO, I mean 'getting popular with EVERYONE' ".

Right now there's a thread on RPG.net entitled "From RPG net Darling to Mainstream?" where people are making exactly the kinds of claims we're referring to here.

Not to mention another thread called "The Next Big System" where someone suggests that Fate will be that system, and others are absurdly suggesting that Exalted is the current Big System (and not D20).
I mean fuck, that is so utterly removed from reality that they couldn't have been more ridiculous if they'd suggested that pod people from neptune were going to write the next big RPG.  NO ONE HAS FUCKING HEARD OF FATE IN THE REAL WORLD.
And as for Exalted, I not only do not know ANYONE who has actually played Exalted in the real world, I don't even know anyone who knows anyone in the real world who has played Exalted. In my entire history as a gamer, I have met only one person in the real world who actually owned the Exalted book, and he regretted buying it.  Its a nonentity, popular only in the sick minds of the RPG.net fashionistas.


RPGPundit

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHis question, and my answer, are immaterial to the discussion.  You're not very good at this either.  If you're going to shoehorn words into my mouth to create drama, you're going to have to try much harder.

!i!

Its a perfectly simple question: are you afraid of answering it?

"Do you think D&D is commercial & shit?" Yes or no?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditRight now there's a thread on RPG.net entitled "From RPG net Darling to Mainstream?" where people are making exactly the kinds of claims we're referring to here.

It'd be nice to know in advance just whose positions we're standing in for on these threads.

Also: Sett's question only makes sense if he himself ONLY plays D20 D&D and nothing else.

Peace,
-Joel

Quote from: Andy KI have no idea what a Ruy Lopez Opening or a Sicilian Defense is

Andy, any time you fancy a game of chess, just let me know.

I am SO gonna kick your ass with the Ruy Lopez Opening and the Sicilian Defense.

- Q

Quote from: RPGPunditRight now there's a thread on RPG.net entitled "From RPG net Darling to Mainstream?" where people are making exactly the kinds of claims we're referring to here.

Not to mention another thread called "The Next Big System" where someone suggests that Fate will be that system, and others are absurdly suggesting that Exalted is the current Big System (and not D20).
I mean fuck, that is so utterly removed from reality that they couldn't have been more ridiculous if they'd suggested that pod people from neptune were going to write the next big RPG.  NO ONE HAS FUCKING HEARD OF FATE IN THE REAL WORLD.
And as for Exalted, I not only do not know ANYONE who has actually played Exalted in the real world, I don't even know anyone who knows anyone in the real world who has played Exalted. In my entire history as a gamer, I have met only one person in the real world who actually owned the Exalted book, and he regretted buying it.  Its a nonentity, popular only in the sick minds of the RPG.net fashionistas.


RPGPundit

And again I ask, so what?

Is the discussion of an incorrect perception that a crappy game is wildly popular going to suddenly make it sweep through the "actual gamer" crowd like wildfire?

What if the game is good, does that change anything?

QuoteAlso: Sett's question only makes sense if he himself ONLY plays D20 D&D and nothing else.

That´s fucking stupidity.

I know enough people, who play D&D once a week and have no interest whatsoever in any other kind of RPG. I am different, but I that´s not the point.

EDIT: It´s interesting how Ian dodges the question. It shows he´s a forger/swine submarine. Poisonous torpedoes, cowardice and all that.

When I was fourteen, I enjoyed playing Monopoly. I got into the limited strategy the game affords and played with friends and family. You can find a Monopoly board just about anywhere you go.

Somehow, and I can't remember how, I got interested in hex-grid wargames around that year. I also started reading a hobby magazine in the school library, and getting interested in games you couldn't find in everybody's living room.

That doesn't make me a better person. It just means I'm more aware than the average person of the range of board games available. And I'm sick of  Monopoly.

Quote from: MelinglorAlso: Sett's question only makes sense if he himself ONLY plays D20 D&D and nothing else.

Peace,
-Joel

Not at all. I don't think D&D is commercial and shit, and yet I play more than just D&D. Its not that hard a question.

RPGPundit

Quote from: GrimGentEh, the largest chain of game stores in this country lists Scion: Hero as one of the recent bestsellers. In fact, the last time I checked their site, it was #1 on the list that's usually dominated by D&D and WoD.

And in a few weeks, D&D will be back on top. Because it has staying power - Spanish Fly and all that.

Seanchai

Quote from: SettembriniBecause people take too much pride in their geekdom and games-knowledge.

And being the rebel who bashes D&D/d20.

Seanchai

I have no idea what "normal" is. I mean my current group only played TSR and then WoTC games before I showed up. Since I joined the crew they have played Over the Edge, WFRP, Feng Shui, Hunter, In Harms Way, GURPS, SW (d6), Savage Worlds, Nicotine Girls, Dogs in the Vineyard, Fading Suns, Heroquest, Traveller, Cyberpunk 2020, Castle Faulkestein and a whole lot of other stuff.

Currently the buzz is something called Don't Rest Your Head or something like that - off course they have to "look through" it before I can see what I can do with it and off course WW's Promethean, which they want me to run "pure" unlike my version of Hunter...

We still use d20 - Modern and True20 - and someday soon (when I finally decide on a setting) D&D.

*shrug* IME for some folks it's about discovering different ways of having the kind of experiences they want from gaming.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: MelinglorSo, y'know, it's just possible that people who haven't heard of obscure shit might in some cases be missing out on something they'd enjoy.

It's also just possible that adherents of indy games have trouble taking no for an answer. It's awesome to make someone aware of a game they might like, but fricking annoying not to take a hint and stop trying when they indicate they're not interested...

Seanchai

Quote from: RPGPunditIts a perfectly simple question: are you afraid of answering it?

Not at all.  I think the record of my posts on the topic since February 2007 speak quite clearly to the matter.  However, my opinion on D&D has little or no bearing on this discussion.  You and Settembrini trying to back me into a corner over things I haven't stated is pathetic and makes me even less inclined to respond with a straight answer to an off-topic derail.  Your starting a drama thread about an imaginary war is even more pathetic.  Really -- praising ignorance as a virtue.  Aren't you embarrassed?

!i!

The whole Forger/Swine movement depends on the notion, that adventure gamers are basically not having fun.

If they had fun, there´d be no need to investigate other possibilities.

In reality, basically nobody investigates these "other possibilities".

Because they are having fun already.

Quote from: SeanchaiIt's also just possible that adherents of indy games have trouble taking no for an answer. It's awesome to make someone aware of a game they might like, but fricking annoying not to take a hint and stop trying when they indicate they're not interested...

I'm curious.  When was the last time someone did this to you?

!i!

QuoteYour starting a drama thread about an imaginary war is even more pathetic. Really -- praising ignorance as a virtue. Aren't you embarrassed?

So following a pastime is ignorance?

I think you are mistaking games for the culture of your respective civilization. The one to be embarassed is you.

You are swine.

Quote from: SettembriniSo following a pastime is ignorance?

You see?  There you go again, trying to make it seem like I stated something that I didn't.  I'll cut you some slack and chalk it up to English not being your native language.  Sit down with a copy of my post and a dictionary, then come back when you've figured out what you got wrong.

!i!

That could well be.

But instead of being condescending and dodgy, you could be superiour by being clear and answer the questions.

All messages I get from you are in the swine frequency. Change that, and I´ll listen.

Why should I answer a question that has no bearing on the topic?  Why should I answer a question that is clearly intended to trap me into saying something that will (hopefully) offend a large sector of the membership here?  Why don't you use the search engine and cross-reference "Ian Absentia" and "D&D"?  I'm guessing you'll be surprised, and quite possibly disappointed, by the result.  But I'll happily dance around you like this when you come at me like you have.

Oh, and this...

Quote from: SettembriniAll messages I get from you are in the swine frequency. Change that, and I´ll listen.

You seem to be listening to me.  Honestly, I think this whole "Swine" term has lost any meaning it ever had, if, indeed, it ever had any.  It seems to just mean "I don't like you or the way you talk about roleplaying games."

!i!

(P.S. I'm genuinely sorry about bringing in the second language issue -- that seems like a low blow.  But I'm honestly wondering if we're just misunderstanding one another. By "ignorant" I most certainly don't mean "stupid" or "incapable of learning."  What I mean is "unaware of something other."  Even if you find that you don't like something other, at least you know that you don't.  As I stated earlier in the thread, the fact that most people are unaware (let's not use "ignorant") of games that diverge from the mainstream isn't a virtue, it's a deficit.  It's something that they haven't experienced yet, and if they ever have the opportunity to broaden their horizons, they might find something else that they like.  Or not.  Discovery is funny like that.)

QuoteIt seems to just mean "I don't like you or the way you talk about roleplaying games."

That´s what I´m saying, you bumhead!
What´s the problem with you?

You grew up on some kind of home for the spineless or what?
Show your colours!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOh, and this...You seem to be listening to me.  Honestly, I think this whole "Swine" term has lost any meaning it ever had, if, indeed, it ever had any.  It seems to just mean "I don't like you or the way you talk about roleplaying games."

And then read this :

QuoteSett:

If they had fun, there´d be no need to investigate other possibilities.

In reality, basically nobody investigates these "other possibilities".

Because they are having fun already.

So, you know where he is coming from, right?

Regards,
David R

I certainly do. He's a Swine!

!i!

We're all of us normal roleplayers.

Except for you.  Yeah, you.  You're the abnormal one.

Yup.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: SettembriniThe whole Forger/Swine movement depends on the notion, that adventure gamers are basically not having fun.

If they had fun, there´d be no need to investigate other possibilities.

In reality, basically nobody investigates these "other possibilities".

Because they are having fun already.

Does putting something in philosophical proof form make it a stronger argument no matter how ridiculous?

The idea that enjoying one thing means I'd never want to try another thing is retarded.

Just because they haven't heard of it, doesn't make it good. It just means it isn't widespread.

Just because it's popular, doesn't make it shitty.

Did I miss anything?

Quote from: GunslingerDoes putting something in philosophical proof form make it a stronger argument no matter how ridiculous?

That's a root assumption of most German philosophy, yes.

Quote from: RPGPundit...Its a nonentity, popular only in the sick minds of the RPG.net fashionistas.

Ohhhhh. This is another "I Hate the RPGNet" thread.  Can we at least move these to the "Pundit Forum"?

Or perhaps create a new forum here specifically for "I Hate RPGNet" threads?  That way we can move all these threads to one area so as not to get in the way of the actual gaming discussion.  

Jeff?

-Andy

Off Topic used to be the I Hate RPGnet forum. I guess our Tangency is spilling over into our Tabletop Open. :D

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNot at all.  I think the record of my posts on the topic since February 2007 speak quite clearly to the matter.  However, my opinion on D&D has little or no bearing on this discussion.  You and Settembrini trying to back me into a corner over things I haven't stated is pathetic and makes me even less inclined to respond with a straight answer to an off-topic derail.  Your starting a drama thread about an imaginary war is even more pathetic.  Really -- praising ignorance as a virtue.  Aren't you embarrassed?

!i!

Wow, that's hilarious. You really can't just say "yes" (or "no").  I mean really, what are you scared of?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd as for Exalted, I not only do not know ANYONE who has actually played Exalted in the real world, I don't even know anyone who knows anyone in the real world who has played Exalted.

Seriously?  Maybe it's not that big in your area, I guess, but I know a bunch of people who've played it (such as myself), and it sells well in the game stores around here.  It's still miniscule compared to D&D/D20, but it's definitely played.

I'm guessing White Wolf doesn't have a large South American branch. Unlike, say, Hasbro they don't have the funding or personnel to do much multinationally. It doesn't surprise me in the least that it would be hard to find anyone playing any WW game in Uruguay.

Pundy can't deal with the fact that Exalted is bigger than all Forge games combined and then some. He wants White Wolf games to be part of the looney fringe, and the mainstream to be d20 only.

Quote from: SettembriniThe whole Forger/Swine movement depends on the notion, that adventure gamers are basically not having fun.

If they had fun, there´d be no need to investigate other possibilities.

In reality, basically nobody investigates these "other possibilities".

Because they are having fun already.

Or alternately, if they try D&D and don't enjoy it, they don't investigate other possibilities because they conflate D&D with the entirety of the hobby.  Crazy person that I am, I'm inclined to wish that more dissatisfied gamers would try other games than just give up tabletop RPGs entirely and switch to MMORPGs or the like.

KoOS

Quote from: King of Old SchoolOr alternately, if they try D&D and don't enjoy it, they don't investigate other possibilities because they conflate D&D with the entirety of the hobby.  Crazy person that I am, I'm inclined to wish that more dissatisfied gamers would try other games than just give up tabletop RPGs entirely and switch to MMORPGs or the like.

KoOS

Ahh, but you see, not liking D&D = badwrongfun, therefore in their warped view, such people shouldn't be allowed to play RPGs.  

Really, all "Swine" means is "Guy who doesn't play MY WAY".

Which is kinda funny, since if you ask the folks using it, they'll tell you it means "guy who looks down on me because I don't play the way he does."

Quote from: James McMurrayWhich is kinda funny, since if you ask the folks using it, they'll tell you it means "guy who looks down on me because I don't play the way he does."

Hence the inherent hypocrisy of their whole philosophy.

Quote from: James McMurrayI'm guessing White Wolf doesn't have a large South American branch. Unlike, say, Hasbro they don't have the funding or personnel to do much multinationally. It doesn't surprise me in the least that it would be hard to find anyone playing any WW game in Uruguay.

That's what I figured, and it goes to show what Pundit said didn't make much sense.  It would be like me saying I don't know anyone who plays or has played Die* Schwarze Auge.

* it is Die, right?  Stupid genders for nouns.

Now I'm sorry I posted to this thread and have to get notifications of replies. You're all swine ;)

D&D and White Wolf = mainstream
Green Ronin, Mongoose, et. = border between sub-culture and mainstream by way of D&D
Eden  = border between sub-culture and mainstream by way of properties like Buffy.
Palladium = alternate universe
Forge games = sub-culture

Quote from: RPGPunditYou really can't just say "yes" (or "no").  I mean really, what are you scared of?

I don't need to. And your calling me chicken is a pathetic attempt at bullying.  You're really in poor form today.

Now, shall we explore what you're afraid of, what with your imaginary war and all?

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditWow, that's hilarious. You really can't just say "yes" (or "no").  I mean really, what are you scared of?

RPGPundit

Are you now, or have you ever been, a communist?

I liken this entire thing to an alternate universe where people discuss model trains.


Okay, so most of the people are working on their train sets.

Some of the model trains fans (let's say.. less than a tenth) prefer to work on model tractors. In fact, many of the tractor guys (not all, but a good percentage) have TOTALLY REJECTED model trains. In favor of tractors. Which, as everyone knows, are far more mature and less geeky than trains. Sure, trains are more popular. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE ANY GOOD. Everyone knows that.

Then there's a couple of guys (and really this is just a few- tiny numbers here) who also like to act out interpretive dances that sometimes deal with trains, and sometimes with tractors. And sometimes just general flapping their arms and legs around, nonsensically. They actually haven't touched a model in years. Once a year they hold a convention in which they showcase various new dances that sometimes involve a loose interpretation of trains and tractors.

Someone starts an internet site dedicated to the "modeling" hobby.

Most of the train guys are actually too busy with trains to bother taking part.

The tractor guys want to show everyone how relevant they are. They REALLY REALLY want you to know how important tractors are. In fact, they even have a tractor shaped like a train. AND ITS TOTALLY NOT A TRAIN.

Then the interpretive dancers keep showing up and demand that everyone try out their new tractor-train dances, most of which involve flapping around in a weird way. Every once in a while they convince a tractor modeler to try out a dance. Most of the times this works like one time. But every once in a while they find that special someone who is actually tired of both tractors, trains and making models.. and just kinda wants to flap around. Luckily the dancers only actually get together once a year, and they all keep in touch on the internet talking about various flapping techniques.

Where's PIGames fit in all that? :D

Quote from: J ArcaneAre you now, or have you ever been, a communist?

"Yes or no! Have you stopped beating your wife?"

!i!

Quote from: JimBobOzWhere's PIGames fit in all that? :D

PIGames isn't even recognized as existing ;)

Quote from: J ArcaneAre you now, or have you ever been, a communist?

Don't go down this path J. Not the whole camera obscura and D&D debate....again :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: James McMurrayI'm guessing White Wolf doesn't have a large South American branch. Unlike, say, Hasbro they don't have the funding or personnel to do much multinationally. It doesn't surprise me in the least that it would be hard to find anyone playing any WW game in Uruguay.

In South America Exalted is nonexistent.  There are people here who play vampire and werewolf, but no one plays Exalted. But I was also talking about Canada. You can't just use the excuse of it being a "third world backwater" to wriggle out of that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Pierce InverarityPundy can't deal with the fact that Exalted is bigger than all Forge games combined and then some. He wants White Wolf games to be part of the looney fringe, and the mainstream to be d20 only.

Exalted could very well be (and quite possibly is) bigger sales-wise than all the Forge games put together, and yet still be utterly irrelevant when compared to the sales of other games.

Its not that hard to out-sell everything the Forge has ever put out all together.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Abyssal MawI liken this entire thing to an alternate universe where people discuss model trains.


Okay, so most of the people are working on their train sets.

Some of the model trains fans (let's say.. less than a tenth) prefer to work on model tractors. In fact, many of the tractor guys (not all, but a good percentage) have TOTALLY REJECTED model trains. In favor of tractors. Which, as everyone knows, are far more mature and less geeky than trains. Sure, trains are more popular. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE ANY GOOD. Everyone knows that.

Then there's a couple of guys (and really this is just a few- tiny numbers here) who also like to act out interpretive dances that sometimes deal with trains, and sometimes with tractors. And sometimes just general flapping their arms and legs around, nonsensically. They actually haven't touched a model in years. Once a year they hold a convention in which they showcase various new dances that sometimes involve a loose interpretation of trains and tractors.

Someone starts an internet site dedicated to the "modeling" hobby.

Most of the train guys are actually too busy with trains to bother taking part.

The tractor guys want to show everyone how relevant they are. They REALLY REALLY want you to know how important tractors are. In fact, they even have a tractor shaped like a train. AND ITS TOTALLY NOT A TRAIN.

Then the interpretive dancers keep showing up and demand that everyone try out their new tractor-train dances, most of which involve flapping around in a weird way. Every once in a while they convince a tractor modeler to try out a dance. Most of the times this works like one time. But every once in a while they find that special someone who is actually tired of both tractors, trains and making models.. and just kinda wants to flap around. Luckily the dancers only actually get together once a year, and they all keep in touch on the internet talking about various flapping techniques.

See, this is it carried to a ridiculous extreme...

...this whole thing has more akin to an argument over what standard track width should be.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI don't need to. And your calling me chicken is a pathetic attempt at bullying.  You're really in poor form today.

Now, shall we explore what you're afraid of, what with your imaginary war and all?

!i!

If you weren't scared, you'd answer the fucking question.  Do you think D&D is commercial and shit? Yes or no? If you're so utterly spineless as to be unwilling to stand for something that simple one way or the other, then you really aren't qualified to talk about anything whatsoever and be taken seriously.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J ArcaneAre you now, or have you ever been, a communist?

So you're acknowledging that admitting that you think D&D is commercial & shit is actually something to be ashamed of?

RPGPundit

From a Game store worker perspective:

 EXALTED just sits there these days.

When we first opened in 2003 we would get a burst in sales on EXALTED books whenever a new one was released. There used to be one enthusiastic bunch of players that would stop by and ask about it. (and tell their damn character strories - oy!!) That bunch of players has now mostly switched to D&D /D20.

 The "normal" roleplayer that frequents our store is usually playing D20 (D&D) or some variant of it . For example : there was a recent uptick in Mutants & Masterminds locally. I don't know why ...but there was a 6 month long surge of interest and sales in that. STILL, its technically using the OGL/D20 mechanics.
 The other top 5 for our store are : World of Darkness, WARHAMMER Fantasy Roleplay , GURPS, RIFTS/Palladium and HERO system.   With a small spinkling handful looking for some version of BESM every 3 or 4 months.

We have other RPGS like GODLIKE, for instance, or STAR THUGS - there just aren't groups of players playing those on a regular schedule that i can tell.  And we DO get hit by 3 or 4 members of a gaming group at the same time. Some weeks, like clockwork,  I can tell that their game is only an hour after they shop with us.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Ian Absentia"Yes or no! Have you stopped beating your wife?"

!i!

I don't see how answering the question of whether or not you think D&D is commercial and shit equates to a "trap" question like "have you stopped beating your wife"?

If we were asking "do you STILL think D&D is commercial & shit", that'd be another story... but seriously, are you now equating believing D&D is shit to wife-beating?

I mean, what the fuck is the problem with the question? Either you think that D&D is commercial and shit, or you don't. Its called making a fucking stand, a statement of belief.  The fact that you can't do it demonstrates some pretty profound lack of faith in your own convictions.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo you're acknowledging that admitting that you think D&D is commercial & shit is actually something to be ashamed of?

RPGPundit

No, I'm acknowledging that your behavior resembles that of former Senator Joseph McCarthy.

Quote from: J ArcaneNo, I'm acknowledging that your behavior resembles that of former Senator Joseph McCarthy.

How so? In what way is me asking Ian to take a stand one way or the other on what he believes some form of entrapment?
You people are fucking idiots if you really think that this, me expecting you guys to be intellectually honest about where you're coming from, is the same as some kind of persecution or witch-hunt where you're suffering for your beliefs.  

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditHow so? In what way is me asking Ian to take a stand one way or the other on what he believes some form of entrapment?
You people are fucking idiots if you really think that this, me expecting you guys to be intellectually honest about where you're coming from, is the same as some kind of persecution or witch-hunt where you're suffering for your beliefs.  

RPGPundit

Except that if you weren't so quick to see the Red Menace everywhere, and actually paid attention to what anyone has actually said on this board, maybe you'd realize your aim is more than a bit off.

This talk always seems like big business vs. mom & pop stores or more to the point peoples preferences on where to shop.  I do 90% of my shopping in chains but it still doesn't mean I'll stop trying the smaller chains for something as good or better whether it's convenience, atmosphere, quality, or just liking being able to communicate with the owner.  Just because you are small doesn't mean you're insignificant.

Quote from: J ArcaneExcept that if you weren't so quick to see the Red Menace everywhere, and actually paid attention to what anyone has actually said on this board, maybe you'd realize your aim is more than a bit off.

Look, if someone asked me "Do you think that D&D is crap", or say, "Do you think that Dogs in the Vinyard is crap?", I would have no trouble answering them straight.  Why the fuck do the other guys have so much trouble being straight up about what they think, unless they realize that the only way they can get ahead is by lying about their true sentiments?

RPGPundit

It's certainly true that if you insist on a "yes" or "no" answer, then "do you think D&D is commercial and shit?" is the same as "have you stopped beating your wife?"

"Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no!" If I answer "yes", then I am saying that I once beat my wife. If I say, "no", then I am saying that I beat her now. This is a problem if, in fact, I have never beat her at all.

"Do you think D&D is commercial and shit? Yes or no!" If I answer "yes", then I am saying something patently absurd, that what zillions of people like is shit, and that anything commerical must be shit. If I say, "no", then I am reversing my old position that commercialisation of things often, but not always, comes with a lowering of quality.

It's a rhetorical tactic to insist on a yes or no answer to a question which has no right yes or no answer; that way you make your opponent look either foolish (when they step into the yes/no trap), or cowardly (when they refuse to answer). The only way to win that game  is not to play. Ian's tactic is to openly refuse to answer it. My tactic would be to say, as I have here, that a yes or no answer is obviously stupid.

D&D is certainly commercial, but it is not shit. Its commercialisation over the years has led to its being better in some ways, and more bland and confused in others. It is not to my taste, but is obviously to the tastes of millions of other people, and they are not crazy or stupid to like it.

You're not debating people at rpg.net anymore, Settembrini and RPGPundit. You'll have to go beyond the "yes or no!" rhetorical tricks of an eight year old or neocon.

Quote from: JimBobOz"Do you think D&D is commercial and shit? Yes or no!" If I answer "yes", then I am saying something patently absurd, that what zillions of people like is shit, and that anything commerical must be shit. If I say, "no", then I am reversing my old position that commercialisation of things often, but not always, comes with a lowering of quality.

It's a rhetorical tactic to insist on a yes or no answer to a question which has no right yes or no answer; that way you make your opponent look either foolish (when they step into the yes/no trap), or cowardly (when they refuse to answer). The only way to win that game  is not to play. Ian's tactic is to openly refuse to answer it. My tactic would be to say, as I have here, that a yes or no answer is obviously stupid.

But the truth is we all know what Ian really believes, we know he precisely does believe that what zillions of people like is shit, and he's just too much of a pussy to admit it, because he knows that his argument is so unpopular he can only promote it through deception and manipulation.

The reason there is "no right yes or no answer" is because Ian's beliefs are so absurd that they don't allow for a non-absurd answer.

QuoteD&D is certainly commercial, but it is not shit.

Ian could easily say that, and I would accept it. But the point is that's not what he really believes, is it? Ian believes that it is commercial shit.

QuoteYou're not debating people at rpg.net anymore, Settembrini and RPGPundit. You'll have to go beyond the "yes or no!" rhetorical tricks of an eight year old or neocon.

I'm sure as hell debating the fuck out of you sorry lot. Like it or not, my rhetoric isn't what's making Ian look like a fucking coward, its the fact that he IS a fucking coward that's making him look like one, my debating skills are just helping to show that to all and sundry.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditLook, if someone asked me "Do you think that D&D is crap", or say, "Do you think that Dogs in the Vinyard is crap?", I would have no trouble answering them straight.  Why the fuck do the other guys have so much trouble being straight up about what they think, unless they realize that the only way they can get ahead is by lying about their true sentiments?

RPGPundit

It's not a straight question, and you know it.  Cut the crap already, no one but you is buying it.  

So how long before you progress to actually banning people for wrongthink?  Anyone wanna take bets before the witchhunts start having more consequences than jsut this shrill little shithead shouting about it?

Quote from: J ArcaneIt's not a straight question, and you know it.  Cut the crap already, no one but you is buying it.  

Please, go ahead, please fucking explain to me how me asking that question is any less straight than one of you asking me if I think DiTV is crap?

Put up with the reasons why its so fucking different, or get the fuck off the batter's mound. Until you can actually explain how I'm being so drastically unfair by expecting Ian to actually clarify his foundational beliefs, don't expect that any other argument you make will carry any weight.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditExalted could very well be (and quite possibly is) bigger sales-wise than all the Forge games put together, and yet still be utterly irrelevant when compared to the sales of other games.

Its not that hard to out-sell everything the Forge has ever put out all together.

RPGPundit

Pundy, nowadays Exalted is bigger sales-wise than most, possibly all, d20 games.

Amazon sales rank of Exalted Second Ed. right now: #19,976

There is D&D. And then there's everything else. And one of the biggest chunks--if not the biggest chunk--of everything else is currently a mainstream game called Exalted.

It's even outselling Vampire, another mainstream game. Why? Obviously, because it's more like D&D, so it attracts people crossing over from the biggest gamer pool on the market. Exalted has torn down the barrier you want to keep up. It's White Wolf's "adventure game."

Quote from: RPGPunditBut the truth is we all know what Ian really believes, we know he precisely does believe that what zillions of people like is shit, and he's just too much of a pussy to admit it, because he knows that his argument is so unpopular he can only promote it through deception and manipulation.

"We" do ? Really? Where in this site has Ian ever displayed the kind of phathetic dogmatic beliefs you and Sett have ? He has talked about plenty of games and as far as I can recall he has not pissed on any one group of gamers or playstyles.

Regards,
David R

I repeat my question, which was very clear in the context.
For clarity, I´ll repeat the context also:


I kneejerked, because I thought Ian was making the Swine-argument of D&D == McDonalds/Britney Spears with his music analogy. I asked him, keeping in the music analogy, if J. Cash, Pink Floyd or the Beatles were shit.

He said:

"No! I said there are things that are commercial, and there are things commercial and shit."

I asked him:

"So do you think D&D is commercial and shit?"

It´s pretty clear and pretty on-topic regarding what Ian himself started saying to just answer that.

Quote from: RPGPunditPlease, go ahead, please fucking explain to me how me asking that question is any less straight than one of you asking me if I think DiTV is crap?

Put up with the reasons why its so fucking different, or get the fuck off the batter's mound. Until you can actually explain how I'm being so drastically unfair by expecting Ian to actually clarify his foundational beliefs, don't expect that any other argument you make will carry any weight.

RPGPundit

Why don't you ask yourself why the fuck someone's "position" or "beliefs" on a roleplaying game must somehow be "declared" as if it's a goddamn check box on a voter's form, or a public statement from a politician.

Ask yourself why it's so goddamn important to you what the hell he thinks, and what you're prepared to do about it if you don't like the answer.

Even if he does think it's crap (which he doesn't, and neither do I, something you'd know if you actually paid the slightest attention to parts of this board that aren't your personal rants), why the fuck does that even matter?

This is a general RPG board, right?  One that supposedly prides itself on freedom of opinion and expression?  

so again, answer me, why the fuck is it suddenly so important that you know what Ian's "official position is on D&D" or whatever the fuck it is you're fishing for?

Do you actually believe this utter crap you just wrote?

Are you that dumb?

Following your logic, there never would be any discussion.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityPundy, nowadays Exalted is bigger sales-wise than most, possibly all, d20 games.

Amazon sales rank of Exalted Second Ed. right now: #19,976

There is D&D. And then there's everything else. And one of the biggest chunks--if not the biggest chunk--of everything else is currently a mainstream game called Exalted.

It's even outselling Vampire, another mainstream game. Why? Obviously, because it's more like D&D, so it attracts people crossing over from the biggest gamer pool on the market. Exalted has torn down the barrier you want to keep up. It's White Wolf's "adventure game."

On the list of top selling books in the RPG category in Amazon, 16 of the top 20 are D&D, 1 is the Star Wars saga edition book, 1 is D&D dice, 1 is a book about Second Life, and 1 is the Shadowrun 4th ed book (!?).

D20 modern is ranked #25.

The WoD 2e corebook is #37.

Exalted is #42.  Granted, it beats out Vampire (at #48) but that would hardly put it in competition with SW D20 or D20 modern.
Are there people who play Exalted? There must be. I sure as fuck don't know any, not irl anyways, but they must exist.  But to claim that Exalted is the breakthrough vanguard hot game of the industry (as they attempted to do on RPG.net), and not just cheap art-porn wankery for people who want to powergame but are too snobby to admit it, so they have to pretend to be playing a "sophisticated deep game about dealing with issues related to massive power", while still daring to sneer and turn their nose up at people who like to play D&D or Palladium and call them "powergamers". Fuck the whole stinking pretentious hypocritical cunt-lot of them.

See? That's a man putting his convictions out in the open. Its not that hard.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J ArcaneWhy don't you ask yourself why the fuck someone's "position" or "beliefs" on a roleplaying game must somehow be "declared" as if it's a goddamn check box on a voter's form, or a public statement from a politician.

Because we're actually arguing about RPGs here? :rolleyes:
Holy fuck, talk about retarded positions: "Ian's opinions about the biggest mainstream RPG in history is his own private business and should have no bearing whatsoever on the validity of his arguments on a thread about mainstream RPGs".
I mean jesus fucking christ on a stick, I'm asking him his position on the subject at fucking hand here, its not like I asked him if he liked to rape sheep!?

QuoteThis is a general RPG board, right?  One that supposedly prides itself on freedom of opinion and expression?  

so again, answer me, why the fuck is it suddenly so important that you know what Ian's "official position is on D&D" or whatever the fuck it is you're fishing for?

Because its directly relevant to the particular subject of this specific thread, you ignorant slut.

RPGPundit

QuoteHoly fuck, talk about retarded positions: "Ian's opinions about the biggest mainstream RPG in history is his own private business and should have no bearing whatsoever on the validity of his arguments on a thread about mainstream RPGs".

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.  You really are thick fucker, aren't you?

One's personal tastes have no bearing on the actual realities of the larger market and the positions of various games in sales charts.  The irony being that despite the fact that this was supposedly the whole point of your original post, you've apparently already forgotten it.

YOU, are conflating the two, for the sole purpose of playing your little wichhunt game, deliberately misinterpreting someone's words for the sake of being able to dump them in your neat little boxes of "goodthink" and "badthink".

Nowhere in his statement does he say anything about his personal tastes on D&D, nor did he make the mistake of conflating his poersonal opinions with the realities of the game market, something you have done time nd time again on this site, backing up your idiotic partisanship with sales figures as if that somehow means you play the RIGHT WAY, and everyone who disagrees palys the WRONG WAY.

But you don't see it.  You can't see it.  You just jump into every fucking thread and immediately start looking for statements to twist, blame to throw around, labels to apply willy nilly, and generally on the prowl for badwrongthink.  

You claim to be all about free expression, but boy are you quick to go on the attack when you smell even the faintest hint of disagreement with your Holy Writ.  

Even if, as in this case and so many others, any evidence you even think ou have for this supposed wrong thinking is completely in your own mind.

So I ask again, how much further will this behavior progress?  When do you start banning people for having the wrong tastes?

Quote from: RPGPunditOn the list of top selling books in the RPG category in Amazon, 16 of the top 20 are D&D, 1 is the Star Wars saga edition book, 1 is D&D dice, 1 is a book about Second Life, and 1 is the Shadowrun 4th ed book (!?).

D20 modern is ranked #25.

The WoD 2e corebook is #37.

Exalted is #42.  Granted, it beats out Vampire (at #48) but that would hardly put it in competition with SW D20 or D20 modern.
Are there people who play Exalted? There must be. I sure as fuck don't know any, not irl anyways, but they must exist.  But to claim that Exalted is the breakthrough vanguard hot game of the industry (as they attempted to do on RPG.net), and not just cheap art-porn wankery for people who want to powergame but are too snobby to admit it, so they have to pretend to be playing a "sophisticated deep game about dealing with issues related to massive power", while still daring to sneer and turn their nose up at people who like to play D&D or Palladium and call them "powergamers". Fuck the whole stinking pretentious hypocritical cunt-lot of them.

See? That's a man putting his convictions out in the open. Its not that hard.

RPGPundit

Pundy, we know why Star Wars is as high up as it is. On your list, the only salient example for your cause is d20 Modern. And it doesn't contradict what I stated.

You hate Exalted because it's way too much like D&D yet it's coming from White Wolf. AND because it shows that the barrier between the two games is fluid as far as the clientele is concerned. Lots of people play both, some of them esteemed members of this site.

And we know why. The tertium of D&D 3.x and Exalted IS the powergaming playstyle. With your artsy/powergamey dichotomy you are stuck in the early 90s... together with the original Vampire goths.

Menawhile, in 2007, swine and non-swine all bow before the mighty character build. You want something other than that, do as I do, play D&D before 2E.

Quote from: GunslingerDoes putting something in philosophical proof form make it a stronger argument no matter how ridiculous?

No.

But putting it in the form of a PowerPoint presentation will :p

Quote from: RPGPunditDo you think D&D is commercial and shit?

Confusing.

Is this standard English asking "Do you think D&D is commercial and is also shit?", or is this slang asking "Do you think D&D is commercial and other things related to being commercial?"?

Linguistic ambiguity aside, WOW did this thread ever crash and burn quickly. Is it always like this around here, cause if it is, sling some mud my way so I can play too. I'm getting a bit bored.





Here, I'll provide an opening. I wasn't completely honest before. I DO have a definition for mainstream. I go to a mall, and whatever I see there is mainstream. By that measure, not even D&D is really mainstream. Wizards couldn't make their mall stores work, and neither could Games Workshop, at least in the US.

You know an RPG that's mainstream? World of Warcraft. It's mainstream because I can discuss it in public without people looking at me funny.

And you know another mainstream RPG? Harry Potter.

But wait I hear, there is no Harry Potter RPG. Well, for some reason this hasn't stopped millions of children from acting as if they were students at Hogwarts. Children are natural roleplayers. They don't need a 'system' to roleplay or enforce genre conventions. The only reason rules are ever brought into the picture is to make sure things are 'fair'.

And this question of "is it fair?" keeps popping up in new D&D player's threads, yet many older players seem confused by nature of the question. To the new blood (and yes, this is a generalization), the rules are there to resolve disagreements, not to create a game, a simulation, or a narrative. Those are what ADULT gamers look for, and sometimes I honestly believe that the only reason adults use a game system at all is because they're too old and embarrassed to just play pretend, and need an excuse.

And finally, the coup de grâce, the piece de resistance, the insert French term here, is that all these mainstream roleplayers actually make up a far BIGGER group than D&D players. It's just a little harder to spot them and market to. Hell, I even suspect that the S&M roleplaying market is bigger, I just can't get the proof I need (which obviously means more research is needed :keke: ).

So as big as D&D is, it's still a tiny fish, and I still do a doubletake when it's used in the same sentence as the word 'mainstream'.

This discussion has taken a turn for the worse. Pundit, there's no accounting for taste. Seriously, because the majority likes it doesn't make it the be-all end-all of the hobby. Amber, for example, you seem to love... it's hardly the behemoth DnD is. And I'm sure your liking that game is justified... not by sales figures or majority rule, but on merit. And I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could find you bitching about DnD somewhere or other, even if it's only this or that about the latest edition.

Now, all this stuff about it feeling good to actually seek stuff out rather than just taking what you're given on the radio, there's truth in it. Because there is. Because if you like roleplaying enough to dig a little, it can be fun. And if you aren't "deep" into it, and just play what's available for a kickass one-shot (regardless of what "what's available" is) that's a legit choice in and of itself. I do the former. My players do the latter. We get along fine. They'll try anything once and that's good enough for me.

As has been said, it isn't a war; it's a hobby. If I want model trains of varying scales and track width, there's no law against it. If I prefer some off-brand osco crayons to crayola, who cares? Hell, I can even say that there's a reason for that preference, in that I prefer actual colors like "sepia" or "umber" or "magenta" over copyrighted nouns like "pumpkin." Even with logic behind it, it still backs up something totally arbitrary: my preference.

And J: Don't encourage him.

QuoteAnd I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could find you bitching about DnD somewhere or other, even if it's only this or that about the latest edition.

In fact, jsut to drive home the real hypocrisy of it all, Pundit has himself stated in the past that he doesn't really like 3.5 as written.  

He's a True20 fan.

I feel really bad, cause I kinda started all this.  So I want to go back...back to the beginning...back to Ian's original statement.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaEnh. Most people I know listen to shit, commercial music, too.

Now I took this to mean that the music was commercial and shitty.  It really is a common way to read that sentence.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaNo, you see, you didn't read that correctly. I specifically wrote "shit, commercial music. "Shit music" is the intent of that statment; "commercial" merely modifies that statement. The music is shit, whether it's commercial or not.

What you specifically wrote, if I remember my English, does not reflect what you meant to write, apparently.  Because, you see, both "shit" and "commercial" modify music. This conflates the two. So really you end up with shit and commercial music.  It's ambiguous at best, so I'm sorry if I "misread" what you wrote by reading it in a relatively standard way. At best we could assume you meant shitty music and commercial music and the two are not linked in any way. But I get this weird feeling it's not what you meant. Why?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI enjoy turning them on to stuff I had to go out of my way to find.

I get the sense that you take pride in being the guy that knows about the music that's not "shit, commercial music." This influences heavily on how the first sentence about "shit, commercial music" is read, no?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI also didn't suggest that "stuff I had to go out of my way to find" is better or more worthy; I clearly stated that I simply enjoy turning them on to something they can't encounter when they don't look outside their accustomed sphere of influence. Sometimes they like it, sometimes they hate it, but they come away with something more than they started with.

There's two problems with this. First, taking your earlier post as a whole it certainly can be read as you claiming the stuff you go out of your way to find is better. I mean, the stuff the people you know listen to is "shit, commercial music," right?  But you, you go out of your way.  You're not lazy like them.  You don't just listen to that "shit, commercial music" that they are spoon-fed; you make an effort dammit!

Second, they don't always come away with something more. If they hate it, didn't you just waste their time?  I mean, if someone comes to me and says, "Hey, check out this new Afro-Brazilian music I just got down at the World Music store," I'm going to decline. I've got a pretty good idea of what I like, and, frankly, I don't have the time to check out the latest Afro-Brazilian beats given the chances that I won't like it. And who better to know and determine the value of that trade of my time versus the chances I'll like it?  If that person persists, and cajoles me into it, and I hate it, hasn't my time been wasted? "There's [Insert  Time Period] of my life I'll never get back," became a common saying (in the US, anyway) for a reason.

See, people make all kinds of decisions about what's important to try new, and when you can leave a sleeping dog lie. The suggestion I keep hearing in this thread, and asserted by you, is that trying something new is inherently a good thing.  That's not true.  It's not inherently a bad thing either.  Some people choose to do all of one or the other.  IMHO, most people just pick and choose.  Busy life? Why bother with the latest RPG design trend of exploding dice pools and personality mechanics when the GURPS game I've been playing for ten years is fun? Oh, just to try something new? Can you see how someone might be perfectly content with that decision and not need to be finding new RPG fashion at every chance?

Having said all that, let's get back to your analogy.  I assume your analogy was to liken music tastes with RPGS tastes.  Substitution would look something like this: "Most people I know [play] shit, commercial [RPG's], too. I enjoy turning them on to stuff I had to go out of my way to find."
Is this a fair reading of your analogy?
If so:
Which games that they play are shit?
Which are commercial?
Which are both shit and commercial?
Does commercial mean less quality in your opinion?
To what stuff do you turn them on that's not shit/commercial/both?
If not:
What is? What were you trying to say?

Quote from: Kester PelagiusWhich may be part of the problem.

The market is, naturally, sales driven.  Commercially trends in RPGs are gauged not on what people are actually playing but rather on sales figures.  Thus, if D20 is the big seller at Borders, the number crunchers look at the figures and, rightly or wrongly, assume that means D20 is popular.  They don't ask what other games or even if other games are stocked because they don't care.  Their only interest is in what is selling, not what people are actually playing.

I think that's where some people get confused.

It's not confusion until you want to start measuring things in ways that are, currently, not possible.  Is your claim that just because something sells well doesn't mean it's being played? What percentage of those who purcahse a game don't play it?

Is it that if Borders just knew about Niche Game X, they would stock it and hundreds of thousands of copies would sell?

What other measure would you use that could be reliably obtained and extrapolated to a meaningful and accurate picture of what's being played? Is there market reasearch? Should we go by Conventions and count up how many sessions of games are being played? But doens't that skew towards a certain demographic?

It's not a matter of being confused, it's  matter of using the best infomration you have.  Right now, and for the foreseeable future, that's sales and whatever market research is made public.

Quote from: JimBobOzIt's certainly true that if you insist on a "yes" or "no" answer, then "do you think D&D is commercial and shit?" is the same as "have you stopped beating your wife?"

"Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no!" If I answer "yes", then I am saying that I once beat my wife. If I say, "no", then I am saying that I beat her now. This is a problem if, in fact, I have never beat her at all.

"Do you think D&D is commercial and shit? Yes or no!" If I answer "yes", then I am saying something patently absurd, that what zillions of people like is shit, and that anything commerical must be shit. If I say, "no", then I am reversing my old position that commercialisation of things often, but not always, comes with a lowering of quality.

It's a rhetorical tactic to insist on a yes or no answer to a question which has no right yes or no answer; that way you make your opponent look either foolish (when they step into the yes/no trap), or cowardly (when they refuse to answer). The only way to win that game  is not to play. Ian's tactic is to openly refuse to answer it. My tactic would be to say, as I have here, that a yes or no answer is obviously stupid.

D&D is certainly commercial, but it is not shit. Its commercialisation over the years has led to its being better in some ways, and more bland and confused in others. It is not to my taste, but is obviously to the tastes of millions of other people, and they are not crazy or stupid to like it.

You're not debating people at rpg.net anymore, Settembrini and RPGPundit. You'll have to go beyond the "yes or no!" rhetorical tricks of an eight year old or neocon.

Let's be fair - the reason for the insistence on a yes or no answer is because every attempt to get any kind of answer has been met with - evasion? That's not quite the right word...avoidance?

When the question was first posed by Sett, Ian had every opportunity to answer with the kind of qualifiers you just provided.  He chose to avoid providing any answer. This often leads to the "Just a straight Yes or No will suffice," reponse.

If I were really a conspiracy theory nut, I'd think that's exactly what Iam meant to do by evading the question. But I only wear my tin foil hat on the second and fourth wednesdays of the month.

Quote from: droogWhen I was fourteen, I enjoyed playing Monopoly. I got into the limited strategy the game affords and played with friends and family. You can find a Monopoly board just about anywhere you go.

Somehow, and I can't remember how, I got interested in hex-grid wargames around that year. I also started reading a hobby magazine in the school library, and getting interested in games you couldn't find in everybody's living room.

That doesn't make me a better person. It just means I'm more aware than the average person of the range of board games available. And I'm sick of  Monopoly.

There's this other one called Clue.  You should get one.

:rimshot:

It's a joke, people...

Quote from: James J SkachIt's not confusion until you want to start measuring things in ways that are, currently, not possible.  Is your claim that just because something sells well doesn't mean it's being played? What percentage of those who purcahse a game don't play it?

Well, how many books are being sold doesn't necessarily correlate with how many games are being played. DnD happens to have a kickass marketing strategy, in that they sell to the players. You can really only sell supplements aimed at DMs/GMs specifically to one member of any given game group. The "Complete" "Races" and "Tome" series? Sell to players. And GMs for that matter.

Just a thought.

Quote from: beejazzWell, how many books are being sold doesn't necessarily correlate with how many games are being played.

And Skach went on to say that, that we couldn't know what proportion of this or that game line bought was actually played. And that in fact we cannot know this at all. So to talk about it is just premature speculation, which we leave to journalists who've not yet found a verbal cockring to deal with their problem.

I think it's fair to assume that the shitloads of D&D books being bought mean that there are shitloads of people playing D&D, and that the relatively miniscule number of Dogs in the Vineyard books being bought mean that there are relatively miniscule numbers of people playing that.

Of course, in theory it's possible that even if 1,000,000 D&D books are bought, only 10 people are playing it, but that when 1,000 Dogs books are bought, 10 people are playing for each copy, so that in play Dogs is heaps more popular than D&D. And less towards the extreme, it's possible that for every one hundred game sessions of D&D played, there's one Dogs in the Vineyard session played.

But it seems fucking unlikely.

If you go on what people are mostly playing, then in the next rpg that gets published, the "what is roleplaying?" chapter could say, "D&D."

Quote from: JimBobOzAnd Skach went on to say that, that we couldn't know what proportion of this or that game line bought was actually played. And that in fact we cannot know this at all. So to talk about it is just premature speculation, which we leave to journalists who've not yet found a verbal cockring to deal with their problem.

I think it's fair to assume that the shitloads of D&D books being bought mean that there are shitloads of people playing D&D, and that the relatively miniscule number of Dogs in the Vineyard books being bought mean that there are relatively miniscule numbers of people playing that.

Of course, in theory it's possible that even if 1,000,000 D&D books are bought, only 10 people are playing it, but that when 1,000 Dogs books are bought, 10 people are playing for each copy, so that in play Dogs is heaps more popular than D&D. And less towards the extreme, it's possible that for every one hundred game sessions of D&D played, there's one Dogs in the Vineyard session played.

But it seems fucking unlikely.

If you go on what people are mostly playing, then in the next rpg that gets published, the "what is roleplaying?" chapter could say, "D&D."

Nah, nah... my point wasn't that people are buying books they don't use... my point was that there are a shitload of DnD supplements, that players will buy these, etc. Any time I played DnD, almost everyone had a copy of the player's handbook. Then the copies (yes plural) of the DMG. Then the various monster manuals, completes, races, environment books, and tomes. Which somehow permeated even when I was teaching noobs to play. Shift to something... even as popular as D20 Modern or Star Wars... suddenly there were only two people with books. Because you just need one sourcebook to play one of those games, and anything optional is more GM geared and has fewer player options.

I'm not saying there are books that are not used to game. I'm saying that many DnD games have more copies of the same book.

Also, yeah... DnD and D20 are the most used things by far. No arguments on that point.

Quote from: James J SkachIt's a joke, people...

Maybe you should do a little tap dance.

I think the whole point of getting Ian to commit to a yes or no answer is to feed into the Pundit's and Sett's idea that there is a war going on. You see when the Pundit goes on about conviction it really means that he and the few of his ilk around here have rather extreme views about rpgs...and they are probably the only ones.

"Exalted, DitV, insert any game you hate and it's players are scum and Swine" is something which is extremely foreign to most gamers esp those who only play D&D...I say this because IME most people I know play mostly D&D.

So you have got to have an enemy, right? You have got to have folks who have the total opposite views that you have. So then you have a WAR. Then the next time Sett and/or the Pundit can go, "well Ian hates D&D, he's evidence of the Swine we keep talking about".

Now most folks who have no interest in D&D (or any game for that matter) just don't talk about it. They (and me, I suppose) talk about the games we like to play. There's more then enough goodwill around these parts to actually have conversations about a variety of games. Having no interest in a game does not translate to hating the game or it's players. But unfortunately to the Pundit, disinterests means hate .

I mean Tony LB talks about the stuff that interests him and chooses not to shit on stuff that does not. Why? It could be that most folks realize it's just a fuckin' game and that taste differ. Now reading Ian's post I don't see aything confusing about what he said. Maybe it's becasue I have read a lot of stuff by Ian and after a while as with any poster you kind of develop a short hand when you interpret what they are sayin'.

I understand why his post was such a moist inviting target to Sett. I can imagine the hard on Sett got from reading his post and that a nuanced answer would have been met with as much disingenuity that those who believe in this so-called war can muster.

Regards,
David R

Wow, when I checked out the thread and saw it had doubled since I'd last posted, I thought, "Damn! Now the thread will have moved on and I won't have a context to respond to my replies!"

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that at page 13 we're still debating the same fucking question.

So here we go: The reason you question is ridiculous, Sett, is this:

Quote from: SettembriniNo, you´re dodging the question.

If D&D is a fantastic game, why should one try something different, when you´re having fun with it twice a week?

Please explain that.

This only holds water if you only play D&D No, scratch that. It only holds water if you play ONE AND ONLY ONE GAME, whatever it may be. Doesn't have to be D&D.

I'll admit my statement was inaccurate, though. Your argument doesn't "make sense" if you only play one game; it's merely an understandable perspective if you only play one game. But your core argument, that if you're having fun gaming, you shouldn't (or have no reason to, or whatever) try new games. . .that's such steaming crap that I can't believe you can type it with a straight face. (Who knows, maybe you can't!)

The fact is, that people who have fun doing one thing can sometimes have fun doing another thing as well.

If they don't know about the second fun thing, they'll never experience it.

Some people will seek out new kinds of fun even if they're perfectly happy with their current fun.

That's all this is about. But folks keep trying to turn it into this big battle in the War. Using me or Ian or whoever as a proxy for the ever-elusive "enemy." So it's impossible to really be heard in this thread; Pundit or Sett or Maw only hear The Voice of Those Fuckers on RPGnet or Wherever. So it goes:

"They're not utterly separate, they're mixed in my group."

"But some of Those Fuckers think Dogs is popular!"

"Some people might like other games if they tried them."

"But some of Those Fuckers are too pushy!"

I'm tired of being a stand-in. Count me out.

But I must thank you for this, Sett:

Quote from: SettembriniEDIT: It´s interesting how Ian dodges the question. It shows he´s a forger/swine submarine. Poisonous torpedoes, cowardice and all that.

. . .because "Poisonous Torpedoes" sounds like a great name for a rock band. :cool:

Peace,
-Joel

Quote from: David RI think the whole point of getting Ian to commit to a yes or no answer is to feed into the Pundit's and Sett's idea that there is a war going on. You see when the Pundit goes on about conviction it really means that he and the few of his ilk around here have rather extreme views about rpgs...and they are probably the only ones.

(snip)

I understand why his post was such a moist inviting target to Sett. I can imagine the hard on Sett got from reading his post and that a nuanced answer would have been met with as much disingenuity that those who believe in this so-called war can muster.

I support this.

Melinglor, mate, you always take the bait. Stop discussing that shit with the war people. Let them be with their fairytale war. It's tiresome.

Quote from: RPGPunditMy younger brother is a "normal" roleplayer.  That is to say, he goes online to download porn and chat on the Myspace or whatever the fuck the kids are doing these days. He emphatically does NOT go online to look up shit about RPGs.

In other respects, my brother is an extremely dedicated gamer.  He roleplays on a weekly basis, and has been doing so for over 5 years now.

The other day, I asked him what RPGs he actually knew about. He knew about D20 (which to him is D&D, D20 modern, Spycraft, Star Wars D20, and "others"), and in fact D20 is the only system he really wants to play ever (he's far more of a D20 absolutist than I am); and he has neither heard of nor wants to hear about "weird variants" like True20. He doesn't trust them.
He knows about RIFTS and palladiums' various old games, even the ones that have been out of print for years.
He knows about Call of Cthulhu, and about Shadowrun, and about Star Frontiers (?!), and he knows about Warhammer though he doesn't care for it.  He knows about "World of Darkness" though not any particular games in it, much less the difference between first and second edition, and he has no interest in playing it.  For him, WoD is the periphery, alternative stuff on the fringe of gaming.

And that's basically it. Anything else that he might know about (ie. Qin) is only because I directly and recently introduced him to it.

So it strikes me that there really are two hobbies, utterly separate.  On the one hand, there's dudes like my brother, who know of four or five games and play one or two. And then there's the gamers who obsess about the games that only 0.1% of the world's gamers have ever heard of, not to mention the idiots on Forums who want to believe and claim that "Scion" or "spirit of the century" or "Truth and justice" are "basically mainstream".

The truth is that anything outside of those few games my brother mentioned (and one or two others possibly, like maybe GURPS) is not and will never be mainstream.  It is a testament to people's abilities to delude themselves to think anything else.

RPGPundit

Wish I had time to read the whole thread, but I have to run to work.  From reading the OP, I just have to say you are right (at least in my experience).  Most gamers play D&D and know of a few other random games they may try once or twice.

It's a misconception of people who post on RPG forums that all gamers are as anal as them.

Sometimes I wish I was one of those gamers myself.  It would often be a lot less frustrating.

A good example is Savage Worlds.  It gets a lot of hype on forums, and , the local game stores all stock at least a couple books...but I've yet to find one REAL person (gamer) who ever even heard of the game.

Quote from: grubmanWish I had time to read the whole thread, but I have to run to work.  From reading the OP, I just have to say you are right (at least in my experience).  Most gamers play D&D and know of a few other random games they may try once or twice.

It's a misconception of people who post on RPG forums that all gamers are as anal as them.

Sometimes I wish I was one of those gamers myself.  It would often be a lot less frustrating.

A good example is Savage Worlds.  It gets a lot of hype on forums, and , the local game stores all stock at least a couple books...but I've yet to find one REAL person (gamer) who ever even heard of the game.

I've always found that mindset strange. I have always been interested in trying new games. I said several times that I don't like D&D, but when I was offered to take part in a D&D game, my answer was always the same: Sure! :) . I afterwards quitted, but just because in my opinion the game sucked (game as in actual play, not D&D as a game).

Quote from: J ArcaneYou claim to be all about free expression, but boy are you quick to go on the attack when you smell even the faintest hint of disagreement with your Holy Writ.  

You're free to express, I'm free to beat the living shit out of you.

QuoteSo I ask again, how much further will this behavior progress?  When do you start banning people for having the wrong tastes?

Never, you stupid fuck. The fact that you can post slander like this and I don't ban you should be proof of that.

RPGPundit

Quote from: beejazzWell, how many books are being sold doesn't necessarily correlate with how many games are being played. DnD happens to have a kickass marketing strategy, in that they sell to the players. You can really only sell supplements aimed at DMs/GMs specifically to one member of any given game group. The "Complete" "Races" and "Tome" series? Sell to players. And GMs for that matter.

Just a thought.

Oh yeah, right. D&D sells something like 100 times the amount of product that any other RPG does, but in fact there are just more people buying it. In reality way more people are actually playing Nobilis... :rolleyes:

That's fucking insane.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David RI think the whole point of getting Ian to commit to a yes or no answer is to feed into the Pundit's and Sett's idea that there is a war going on. You see when the Pundit goes on about conviction it really means that he and the few of his ilk around here have rather extreme views about rpgs...and they are probably the only ones.

"Exalted, DitV, insert any game you hate and it's players are scum and Swine" is something which is extremely foreign to most gamers esp those who only play D&D...I say this because IME most people I know play mostly D&D.

So you have got to have an enemy, right? You have got to have folks who have the total opposite views that you have. So then you have a WAR. Then the next time Sett and/or the Pundit can go, "well Ian hates D&D, he's evidence of the Swine we keep talking about".

Let's ignore the tone of your post for a moment and analyze the substance, shall we?

Ian could easily stop all of this by saying "No, I don't believe that D&D is shit".
He could also at least prove himself a man by saying "yes, I believe D&D is shit, and I'm prepared to defend my position".

You can keep slinging mud at Sett and me all you like, but the one guy who is solely responsible for the derailing of this thread is the coward who is so unsure of his own convictions that he cannot answer the fucking question posed to him!

To suggest that this is all some kind of an elaborate frame on my and Sett's part is just stupid. Ian could have ended this at any time by ANSWERING THE FUCKING QUESTION.

RPGPundit

Quote from: grubmanWish I had time to read the whole thread, but I have to run to work.  From reading the OP, I just have to say you are right (at least in my experience).  Most gamers play D&D and know of a few other random games they may try once or twice.

It's a misconception of people who post on RPG forums that all gamers are as anal as them.

Sometimes I wish I was one of those gamers myself.  It would often be a lot less frustrating.

Well, one of the shocking things is just how absolutely determined they are to play D20 and nothing else. In my brother's case I find myself in the amusing position of having to convince him to give Qin a try, or WFRP, and that no, True20 is basically just like D20 and he'll figure it out right away, etc etc.
Its not me who's telling the Swine that normal roleplayers don't want what they're selling, its the normal roleplayers themselves.

QuoteA good example is Savage Worlds.  It gets a lot of hype on forums, and , the local game stores all stock at least a couple books...but I've yet to find one REAL person (gamer) who ever even heard of the game.

My brother certainly hasn't.  He has heard of Deadlands, but he refuses to play it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYou can keep slinging mud at Sett and me all you like, but the one guy who is solely responsible for the derailing of this thread is the coward who is so unsure of his own convictions that he cannot answer the fucking question posed to him!

So what you're saying is that he flew down to Uruguay, stuck his dick to your forehead, and shouted "Hound me for answers or I blow a load in your eyes!" Then when you refused he hacked into your account and posted all of your derailments himself?

Or will you admit you played a part? Well, yes or no, motherfucker? did you post derailments or not?

See how stupid that looks?

Quote from: RPGPunditIn South America Exalted is nonexistent.  There are people here who play vampire and werewolf, but no one plays Exalted. But I was also talking about Canada. You can't just use the excuse of it being a "third world backwater" to wriggle out of that.

First, "third world backwater" is your own phrase. Don't try to pin it on me. I'd say the exact same thing if you live in Tokyo. Second, how many gamers in Canada do you know "in real life"? When is the last time you gamed with them? Did you take an Exalted poll or just assume that since they don't mention it they don't play it?

Quote from: RPGPunditAre there people who play Exalted? There must be. I sure as fuck don't know any, not irl anyways, but they must exist.  But to claim that Exalted is the breakthrough vanguard hot game of the industry (as they attempted to do on RPG.net), and not just cheap art-porn wankery for people who want to powergame but are too snobby to admit it, so they have to pretend to be playing a "sophisticated deep game about dealing with issues related to massive power", while still daring to sneer and turn their nose up at people who like to play D&D or Palladium and call them "powergamers". Fuck the whole stinking pretentious hypocritical cunt-lot of them.

Swing by White Wolf's Exalted forum some time. There's not a lot of art-porn wankery there. Mostly it's folks talking about how to kick ass and take names. And I've never seen anyone ashamed to admit they like to play Exalted, or claim that it should be powered down or made more emo. Step outside of your paranoid delusions and you'll see the world doesn't look like what you think it does.

Quote from: James J SkachWhat you specifically wrote, if I remember my English, does not reflect what you meant to write, apparently.  Because, you see, both "shit" and "commercial" modify music. This conflates the two. So really you end up with shit and commercial music.

I think it does more than conflate just "commercial" and "shit". It conflate commercial, shit, and music people he knows listen to. If I were to say

QuoteMost people basketball players I know listen to shit, commercial music, too. are tall, black men.

Would you assume that I thought all men were tall and black, all basketball players were tall and black, or even that Larry Byrd is either tall or black?

Quote from: J ArcaneYou claim to be all about free expression, but boy are you quick to go on the attack when you smell even the faintest hint of disagreement with your Holy Writ.

...

So I ask again, how much further will this behavior progress?  When do you start banning people for having the wrong tastes?

Dude, I usually have the deepest respect for your opinions, but you've gone off the rails here.  Pundit pushes.  You push back.  Where did freedom of expression evaporate?

And the day Pundit bans someone for having incompatible tastes is the day this whole house of cards comes tumbling down.  And I'll be among the first out the door.  The fact that anybody can come right back at him full throttle is the only thing on this board that gives Pundit any moral high ground.  If he were stupid enough to give that up, he'd be giving up the whole show.

Quote from: James McMurraySo what you're saying is that he flew down to Uruguay, stuck his dick to your forehead, and shouted "Hound me for answers or I blow a load in your eyes!" Then when you refused he hacked into your account and posted all of your derailments himself?

Or will you admit you played a part? Well, yes or no, motherfucker? did you post derailments or not?

No, I didn't post "derailments", because the question of whether Ian thinks D&D is shit or not is directly relevant to the topic at hand.

QuoteSee how stupid that looks?

See how easy that was to answer, cockmongler?

QuoteFirst, "third world backwater" is your own phrase. Don't try to pin it on me. I'd say the exact same thing if you live in Tokyo.

And yet Uruguay has way more gamers than Tokyo. Uruguay has the third largest percentage of traffic (out of any country in the world) to ENWorld.  That should tell you something right there.

So why not just admit you were trying to make it out that of course the ignorant savages down south wouldn't know Exalted, what with them living in their mud huts and fighting la revolucion all the time?
Dude, here a gamer can get ANY RPG ever put out, all pirated of course, but they can get it no problem.
People don't play Exalted here because no one gives a fuck about it.

QuoteSecond, how many gamers in Canada do you know "in real life"?

More than I know in Uruguay. Which is to say, hundreds.

QuoteWhen is the last time you gamed with them? Did you take an Exalted poll or just assume that since they don't mention it they don't play it?

I was active in the gaming scene in Edmonton up till October 2003 when I left for Uruguay. After that, every time I've come back I've met with a large number of gamers.
On every occasion, one of the questions most asked is "so what are you playing these days"? The answer is NEVER Exalted.
I've been to people's houses, and I have NEVER seen Exalted on their bookshelves.
How hard is this for you to process? Very few normal people play the fucking game, that's it.

QuoteSwing by White Wolf's Exalted forum some time. There's not a lot of art-porn wankery there.

Swing by RPG.net, where most of the Exalted fans have stated they prefer to hang out. There's a metric shitload of Exalted-related art-porn wankery there, constantly.

QuoteMostly it's folks talking about how to kick ass and take names. And I've never seen anyone ashamed to admit they like to play Exalted, or claim that it should be powered down or made more emo.

Great, because I never claimed either of the two.  What I actually fucking said is that Exalted players are ashamed of being powergamers, and they mask that by claiming that Exalted is actually not "about" the powergaming in the same way they constantly denigrate D&D or Palladium for being powergaming, and claiming that Exalted is in some vague incomprehensible way more "Intelligent" or "sophisticated" and "deals with issues" that those other games don't, so its ok for them to have a 2100th level (or "dot") dude who blows up entire continents in it.  
They don't want to power-down Exalted, they're playing Exalted because they have been desperate to blow their powergaming load for years now, after years and years and years of not being able to play D&D because it was for the "unwashed masses", watching them have all the powergaming fun, and being stuck over in White-wolfland pretending to be limp-wristed satin-wearing vampires.
Exalted is for them like what (usually foreign) "Art" films with nudity are for intellectual snobs. You know, those "Art" films that show up late night on the arts & culture network?
They're really just soft or hard-core pornography, but they pretend to be "artistic" so the pretentious snobs who watch it don't have to admit that they're just getting turned on watching porn like the rest of us. No, they watch "art films". Right. :rolleyes:

Exalted is the "art film" of the RPG world. Its powergaming-porn in intellectual wankery-drag.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditExalted is the "art film" of the RPG world. Its powergaming-porn in intellectual wankery-drag.

Art film? Meh. "Matrix"? Yeah. (Which makes your second sentence even more valid)

Quote from: James McMurrayWould you assume that I thought all men were tall and black, all basketball players were tall and black, or even that Larry Byrd is either tall or black?

No Jimmy, C'mon.  You're letting your (sometimes justified) hatred of Pundy get in the way of your thinking.

I'd assume that the men who you knew who played basketball were tall and black. Is that some weird interpretation of what were trying to say? Sheesh.

Quote from: MelinglorBut your core argument, that if you're having fun gaming, you shouldn't (or have no reason to, or whatever) try new games. . .that's such steaming crap that I can't believe you can type it with a straight face. (Who knows, maybe you can't!)

See, I think a lot of this portion of the "debate" is a misunderstanding from people piling into camps and arguing against the people they don't like.

Because the difference between "you shouldn't try new games," and "you have no reason to try new games," is immense. I would disagree with the former and agree with the latter.

Because only you can decide, given your time and the projected effort versus the possible payoff, if you want to try a new game.  Nobody should tell you that you shouldn't.  At the same time, if you're playing a game you like, one and only one game, and that game makes you happy, you have no specific reason to try anything else.

Now some of you may think it's "weird" (like Claudius), or think it's close minded, or a thousand other perspectives.  But if the people deciding not to try other systems are happy, who is anyone else to judge them on this decision? Why is it bad if someone just decides "I'm going to play D20 and nothing else"? Would you have the same problem with someone who said "I'm going to play Burning Wheel/Empires and nothing else," or "It's DitV for me, and maybe Polaris"? I wouldn't in either case.

It's interesting to me that many of the same people who call from the mountain high that gaming is about the fun and the happiness and nobody should judge also seem to think people who are content with the few games they play and have no desire to try this system or that design are somehow deficient.

If that's not the gist of this argument, it's sure coming across that way. But I blame Pundit and Sett...it's all the rage...

Quote from: RPGPunditIan could easily stop all of this by saying "No, I don't believe that D&D is shit".
He could also at least prove himself a man by saying "yes, I believe D&D is shit, and I'm prepared to defend my position".

If you go back to how all this started, you would notice that Ian explained in post #21 what he meant by his statements about commercial and shit. But this off course was not enough for Sett who then proceeds to try and draw Ian into this whole war bullshit by bringing up D&D - note Koltar's response because frankly IMO that's what most folks believe - and linking it with the whole "why try something new if you're having fun" argument, this last part seems perfectly reasonable to me except Sett believes (and I don't think I need to link to any particular thread) that almost all games besides the ones he likes are shit and therefore trying anything new (games which he hates) is bad.

Now does Ian have a posting history of shitting on D&D or folks who enjoy playing it? I don't think so. So when confronted with Sett's obvious attempt to draw him into this nonsensical war he declined. So he did make a defense, just not the one you were/are hoping for.  

QuoteYou can keep slinging mud at Sett and me all you like, but the one guy who is solely responsible for the derailing of this thread is the coward who is so unsure of his own convictions that he cannot answer the fucking question posed to him!

Actually the one who derailed this thread is you. By insisting on Ian making a defense where none is needed you have again brought this thread into the shitzone...actually this thread was doomed to this fate because frankly it was just another one of your rants about us vs them. Like I said before, when you say convictions it merely means extreme views that you wish "your" enemies had so this war could be real.

QuoteTo suggest that this is all some kind of an elaborate frame on my and Sett's part is just stupid. Ian could have ended this at any time by ANSWERING THE FUCKING QUESTION.

He did answer the question, just not the obviously trollish one.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: ImperatorStop discussing that shit with the war people. Let them be with their fairytale war. It's tiresome.

Y'know, if Pundit were actually willing to discuss his reasons for thinking that there's a war, I'd be keen on that.  It'd make for an interesting discussion.

Now, I think he's wrong.  I don't think there's any war.  I think it's a self-reinforcing bias in his perception:  he believes that people with certain tastes are fanatical, and therefore selectively pays attention to the things in their posts that can be interpreted as being fanatical, while discounting everything else.  That's how (for instance) he "knows" what Ian thinks about D&D.

But I'd be open to hearing his reasoning, if he could present it coherently.  Unfortunately, I've never seen him do so.  What he mostly just does is shout his assertions over and over again at the top of his virtual lungs, while firmly shutting his ears to what anyone else is saying in response.

Like, for instance, in this thread.

Quote from: RPGPunditOh yeah, right. D&D sells something like 100 times the amount of product that any other RPG does, but in fact there are just more people buying it. In reality way more people are actually playing Nobilis... :rolleyes:

That's fucking insane.

RPGPundit

Never said that. Actually specifically contradicted it. More like DnD is selling 100 times as well for 25 times as many games, or something to that effect.

Pundit, I can guarantee I enjoy 3.5 as thoroghly as you do... actually probably more so. I even like alot of the shit you and others don't. Like attacks of opportunity. And the ridiculous number of feats/spells/classes/raves that get added. I don't even abhor classes and levels the way others seem to. And anything I don't like happens to have a convenient variant in Unearthed Arcana.

If you'd listen you would realize I would in no way try to put the game as a whole down, and that I know it does sell better and get more played. That was not my point. My point was only to point out one of its better marketing moves.

But there's the thing. You'd actually have to listen.

Quote from: RPGPunditIf you weren't scared, you'd answer the fucking question.  Do you think D&D is commercial and shit? Yes or no?

Are you losing any sleep over this?  I sure didn't.  I had a good evening with my kids, folded the laundry, stayed up too late watching a very good (and very commercial!) movie, then slept like a baby.  

You know, your search engine is broken, which, perhaps, is why you're being such a hair-pulling sissy about this.  I was going to throw you a bone and link you to a couple of posts I've made on the matter of D&D, which would have totally given away my position -- you know, like I've been telling you to do -- but I keep getting the message that "Ian Absentia" is an invalid user name.

But you know, I'm glad I couldn't.  You have two agendas toward which you're working here.  One, you're trying to generate a sense of relevance for this site by creating controversy and drama over a non-issue.  As usual with you, I don't know whether or not you believe the positions you espouse, or if you're just spouting controversial shit for attention, so there's really no gain for me to play along with you.  Two, you plainly enjoy bullying people into responding to your provocations.  I'll confess that I'm enjoying thwarting your attempts to badger me.  So, play on, Macduff.

!i!

Quote from: beejazzPundit, I can guarantee I enjoy 3.5 as thoroghly as you do... actually probably more so.

But do you like it for exactly the same reasons he does?  There's the meat of the matter.  And there lies the battlefield of The Great War for the hearts and souls of gamers everywhere.

!i!

Quote from: RPGPunditNo, I didn't post "derailments", because the question of whether Ian thinks D&D is shit or not is directly relevant to the topic at hand.

So him saying "no, I won't answer" makes him solely responsible? It seems to me that it takes at least two people to go back and forth asking and refusing to answer questions.

QuoteSee how easy that was to answer, cockmongler?

Sure, when your answer is full of shit. And ease of answering does not equate to relevance or not looking stupid.

QuoteSo why not just admit you were trying to make it out that of course the ignorant savages down south wouldn't know Exalted, what with them living in their mud huts and fighting la revolucion all the time?

Why not admit it? Perhaps because it isn't true? You're the one who started carrying on about Uruguay being a shit hole. All I said was that I didn't think White Wolf did a lot of marketing down there.

QuoteHow hard is this for you to process? Very few normal people play the fucking game, that's it.

It's not hard at all, now that I have the information. See, that's why I ask for info: so I can process the validity of claims. Contrary to your belief, it's not an attack on you, it's an attempt to find out how recent and relevant your knowledge of the Canadian gaming scene is to the topic.

QuoteSwing by RPG.net, where most of the Exalted fans have stated they prefer to hang out. There's a metric shitload of Exalted-related art-porn wankery there, constantly.

I don't doubt it. But the perceived preferences of a subset does not equate the game to be only equal to what they like. If that were true, nobody would ever be roleplaying their characters in D&D, it would all be video-gamey quests for the next level and the next new toy.

QuoteGreat, because I never claimed either of the two.  What I actually fucking said is that Exalted players are ashamed of being powergamers, and they mask that by claiming that Exalted is actually not "about" the powergaming in the same way they constantly denigrate D&D or Palladium for being powergaming, and claiming that Exalted is in some vague incomprehensible way more "Intelligent" or "sophisticated" and "deals with issues" that those other games don't, so its ok for them to have a 2100th level (or "dot") dude who blows up entire continents in it.  

And I countered by pointing to a group of Exalted players that like to talk about power gaming and don't try to hide it. Again, just because your perceptions are limited to the Exalted crowd at RPGnet doesn't mean those guys actually matter in the grand scheme of things (any more than we here at this website matter).

QuoteThey don't want to power-down Exalted, they're playing Exalted because they have been desperate to blow their powergaming load for years now, after years and years and years of not being able to play D&D because it was for the "unwashed masses", watching them have all the powergaming fun, and being stuck over in White-wolfland pretending to be limp-wristed satin-wearing vampires.

Did they tell you this, or is it your enlightened knowledge of them based on your (possibly just a wee bit biased) reading of their threads at a website that banned you a long time ago?

QuoteExalted is the "art film" of the RPG world. Its powergaming-porn in intellectual wankery-drag.

Interesting theory. I assume you already know I disagree. :)

Quote from: James J SkachNo Jimmy, C'mon.  You're letting your (sometimes justified) hatred of Pundy get in the way of your thinking.

I'd assume that the men who you knew who played basketball were tall and black. Is that some weird interpretation of what were trying to say? Sheesh.

My response was to you. It had nothing to do with Pundit apart from being situated near some replies to him. With all the uproar I went back and read the statement, and it's quite plainly only referencing the people he knows and the music they listen to. It takes a biased reading that's looking for trouble to see that sentence as saying that commercial = shit, and apply it to everything.

Quote from: James McMurrayMy response was to you. It had nothing to do with Pundit apart from being situated near some replies to him. With all the uproar I went back and read the statement, and it's quite plainly only referencing the people he knows and the music they listen to. It takes a biased reading that's looking for trouble to see that sentence as saying that commercial = shit, and apply it to everything.

Awww..Jimmy, C'mon.  I'm trying to be civil here. Are we going to have a spat now?

I agree with that it's quite plainly only referencing the people he knows and the shit, commerical music to which they listen.

I disagree that it takes a biased reading looking for trouble. Given that he was using the entire post as an anaolgy to RPG's, it takes on a completely different context. Since I was one who questioned his - arrogance, I believe I called it - am I some kind of wildly biased RPG war-monger? I don't believe I've ever said a word about Exalted or just about any of the other games discussed. I don't or haven't played them, so I keep my mouth shut. But I am keen to subtle, often unintended, jibes like judging harshly people who continue to play a game they like while ignoring new games - like people who listen to shit, commerical music instead of the stuff I go out of my way to find. Hey, don't blame me, didn't make up the analogy :p

But I've said in followup posts that I'll go with the benefit of the doubt and assume I've misread something.  I've then asked for some clarification through followup questions.  Alas, I'm being, apparently, lumped with Pundy and Sett and avoided. C'est La Vie!

I hate it when both James's post in the same thread.  I eventually mix up which one said what.

You know, if I don't ready closely, this begins to look like that Good Kirk/Bad Kirk episode of Star Trek.

!i!

Y'know... I was reading this thread all in one go. I have no problems standing up and saying...


'Y'know, I think D&D is commercial and shit'.  I do think Ian's evasiveness, either way, seriously contributed* to the mess that this thread has become.

Of course, I also have to hedge a bit and admit that I've long since come to terms with the 'lowest common denominator' factor, and the fact that using 'Commercial' and 'LCD' to deride something is horribly elitest behavior.

 
That said, Yes, exalted is 'main stream'... at least enough for the purposes of discussion. Its young yet, but it does have quite a bit of 'mainstream' cred for RPG purposes. It has the sales, the visible groups, the forums... most of all White Wolf is notably the only company/game other than D&D to get non-RPG products based off their games in other media. The Vampire TV series, the Exalted Comic Books line (what ever happened to that).

Sorry, that is MainStream.

Hey, as long as I get the babes like James T.

Look - I'll apologize.  I was grumpy and yelled J'accuse! before asking the questions for clarification - which I'd still like because I don't know Ian from Adam and it's always nice to know where people are coming from when you read them as it helps address some of these very communication issues.  But this whole fight has resulted in something that is interesting to me.

Is it true that people here are of the opinion that even if someone is having fun playing their D20 game every week that they are somehow wrong/lazy/ignorant/narrow-minded for not wanting to go looking for something new?

Do people think that D&D/D20 suffers from being commercially successful? Is the idea the commercially successful = lower quality prevalent? To the OP, is it more prevalent in Internet Forum/Chat realms than in the much broader gaming community? How do these perspectives differ?

Quote from: James J SkachIs it true that people here are of the opinion that even if someone is having fun playing their D20 game every week that they are somehow wrong/lazy/ignorant/narrow-minded for not wanting to go looking for something new?

Do people think that D&D/D20 suffers from being commercially successful? Is the idea the commercially successful = lower quality prevalent?

I'll go with no, no, and no.

See, it takes straight-talling Illini to get a straight answer :D

James, I don't think we're going to have a spat. I was just pointing out that my response had nothing to do with Pundit. It wasn't an attack, just a clarification based on something you'd said.

And don't you mean "get the ladies like James M?" ;)

Spike, I've never read the comics apart from the ones in the rulebooks, but it looks like the series is still alive (http://forums.white-wolf.com/viewtopic.php?t=58166).

Quote from: jrientsDude, I usually have the deepest respect for your opinions, but you've gone off the rails here.  Pundit pushes.  You push back.  Where did freedom of expression evaporate?

And the day Pundit bans someone for having incompatible tastes is the day this whole house of cards comes tumbling down.  And I'll be among the first out the door.  The fact that anybody can come right back at him full throttle is the only thing on this board that gives Pundit any moral high ground.  If he were stupid enough to give that up, he'd be giving up the whole show.

He's already modded one person in the past for disagreeing with him too loudly and too often.  

He's shown a relentless paranoia that has no indication of ever abating.  

He has the manner and discourse of a Catholic inquisitor.  

It's only a matter of time, man.  Right now, it's just pathetic attempts at browbeating, but how long before that's not enough to satisfy him?

I do apologize however, because in pointing out this obvious path he's already taken slowly but surely, I gave him an out to avoid addressing the other issue of my post, which was that with his very determination to hound Ian over a matter of taste still contradicts his own point about tastes not equalling market reality.

Quote from: SpikeI do think Ian's evasiveness, either way, seriously contributed* to the mess that this thread has become.

Really?  Try this on for size:

Chester: Hey, Spike, check out that chick over there.
Spike: Wha...?  Oh.  Hunh.
Chester: What do you mean, "Hunh"? Don't you think she's hot?
Spike: Doesn't do much for me, no.
Chester: What are you, some kind of homo?
Spike: Fuck you.
Chester: You didn't answer my question.  Yes or no: Are you a homo?
Spike: That has nothing to do with whether or not I find that woman attractive, so I'm not going to dignify the question with an answer.
Chester: I think it might have a bearing on your opinion.  If you're a homo, you're not attracted to women -- you're attracted to dick.
Spike: Now, see, Chester, you're being an offensive prick in addition to asking an irrelevant question.
Chester: God, you can't even give a straight answer.  What are you afraid of?
Spike: Nothing.  You're just being a prick and asking an irrelevant question.
Chester: You're afraid of being exposed as a homosexual.  Now answer the question, yes or no.

...and so on and so forth.  Sound a little familiar?  You could have nipped the entire matter in the bud simply by telling Chester that you're not gay, even though it had no bearing on anything, and even though it's none of his business, and even though, if he could have been troubled to think on the matter for a moment, he'd recall all the women he's seen you with since he's known you.  But Chester's being an asshole.  Do you really want to let him have his way and answer his irrelevant and insulting question?

!i!

Apparently, I'll get get t-bagged by the majority here for saying this, but what the fuck.

Ian, you're being a prick. Enough of this passive-resistance shit. Just directly answer the fucking question. Don't post links, or refer posters to previous statements, or any other bullshit.

I'm sure you're getting an "internet erection" from stringing Sett and Pundit along, but your little routine is getting old and tired.

Is D&D commercial. Yes or no?

Is D&D shit? Yes or no?

After answering, discuss it. Or don't. But please just answer directly. Choose a position, and stand by it. If you won't do that, then stop pushing Sett's and Pundit's buttons. You're not the wronged party here. You're deliberately fucking with them, and you know it.

And please, until Ian answers the fucking question, let's not sidetrack this discussion into the Forge/Proxy War, or the "why try something new if you're having fun" argument. Okay? Thanks.

QuoteIs it true that people here are of the opinion that even if someone is having fun playing their D20 game every week that they are somehow wrong/lazy/ignorant/narrow-minded for not wanting to go looking for something new?

Yes.  Me.  I don't believe in intentionally limiting one's own experiences, and I never will.  Whether it's games, or movies, or food, or any number of other things, I think it's a fundamentally broken behavior to ignore the wealth of diversity this world has to offer out of sheer laziness or mindless conservatism.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI'm curious.  When was the last time someone did this to you?

Why does it have to be done to me?

Seanchai

Well, Ian, as an asexual pokemon, I assure you that I have only witnessed that type of conversation. Typically it ends in roughly a third the time as the guy goes:

What? of course not, dipshit.

Maybe accompanied by a slap upside the head or counteraccusations of homosexuality.


By not answering the question, you artificially drag the converastion on, and then you get on a high horse by saying 'I shouldn't have to answer that'... should or should not haves don't factor into it.

I've also seen that conversation end with 'Yeah, Gimmee your body baby!' usually accompanied by exaggerated flamboyant behavior.  While not actually answering the question in any meaningful way, it avoids that 'evasive guilt' phenomenon that you seem to think is abnormal behavior.

Quote from: SeanchaiWhy does it have to be done to me?

I mis-phrased that.  When was the last time you saw this happen?

!i!

Quote from: J ArcaneYes.  Me.  I don't believe in intentionally limiting one's own experiences, and I never will.  Whether it's games, or movies, or food, or any number of other things, I think it's a fundamentally broken behavior to ignore the wealth of diversity this world has to offer out of sheer laziness or mindless conservatism.

And I say any group successfully playing D&D and nothing but every week for a decade or two is doing something right.  And I bet you their game won't look too much like any published D&D rulebook.  Arduin and Synnibarr both started as one dude's idiosyncratic house rules.

Quote from: J ArcaneYes.  Me.  I don't believe in intentionally limiting one's own experiences, and I never will.  Whether it's games, or movies, or food, or any number of other things, I think it's a fundamentally broken behavior to ignore the wealth of diversity this world has to offer out of sheer laziness or mindless conservatism.

How is it "broken behavior" if what you're doing makes you happy, and no one gets hurt because of it? I intentionally don't go bungee-jumping, thus I'm "limiting my experiences". Well, you know what? I'm at peace with that.

Quote from: J ArcaneYes.  Me.  I don't believe in intentionally limiting one's own experiences, and I never will.  Whether it's games, or movies, or food, or any number of other things, I think it's a fundamentally broken behavior to ignore the wealth of diversity this world has to offer out of sheer laziness or mindless conservatism.

So is it your assumption that people who intentionally limit experiences are either lazy or mindless conservatives?

Has it occured to you that given certain time constraints and people's understanding of their own likes and dislikes they make discriminating choices every day? That by deciding the fun had evey other week playing GURPS is a check mark that doesn't have to be re-thought so that critical thought can be focused on things like "how am I going to pay for that new dryer?"

I'm not asking the following question to be dergatory or judgemental.  I'm really curious as it helps me understand your perspective.  I'll answer first.

• How old are you? I'm 40 - about to be 41.
• Are you married? I am - lucky for me.
• Do you have kids? I have two - 6 and 5 years old.
• How much leisure time do you have (defined as time not required for work, home care, day-to-day chores, or time required for kids)?  I have very very little.

The first three tend to influence the last one greatly.  I have very little leisure time that's just for me.  So the time I do have I need to maximize my enjoyment.  Now some people accomplish this by trying new things.  I'm one of those that's usually content to play what I know and enjoy. I'm not opposed to new things, but I intentionally limit my exposure based on my time constraints and my self-knowledge.

Am I lazy, a mindless conservative, or is there some other explanation?

That's not a response, that's a list of excuses.

I have a friend in Vancouver who's a gamer, and also married, with kids, and an IT job that takes up a hell of a lot of time.

Yet he's constantly showing up with new games, and endlessly inquisitive about finding even more.

He wants to be able to maximize his enjoyment time by seeking out ever newer, cooler ways to enjoy that leisure time.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambIan, you're being a prick.

Guilty as charged.

Quote...please just answer directly. Choose a position, and stand by it. If you won't do that, then stop pushing Sett's and Pundit's buttons. You're not the wronged party here. You're deliberately fucking with them, and you know it.

Fine.  I'll strike a deal here.  If Pundit and Settembrini will state whether or not they're homosexuals, I'll state whether or not I think D&D is commercial shit.  None of our answers will have a bearing on anything, and none of them are anyone else's business, but this seems to have become the raison d'être for this thread.

!i!

Quote from: James J SkachIs it true that people here are of the opinion that even if someone is having fun playing their D20 game every week that they are somehow wrong/lazy/ignorant/narrow-minded for not wanting to go looking for something new?

For not actively desiring to seek out alternatives to something you already enjoy?  Hell no.  For being resolutely unwilling to even look at alternatives when they're offered to you?  Hell yes.  Just like food, if you told me that because you liked hamburgers you weren't willing to even look at the seafood restaurant across the street, I'd tell you that you were an ignorant twat.  Same with games.  Blissful ignorance isn't a virtue, ever.

QuoteDo people think that D&D/D20 suffers from being commercially successful?

I think the makers of D&D are constrained from its commercial success from perhaps stretching as far creatively as they might like; Monte Cook said as much when he started Malhavoc Press.  That said, I think D&D 3.x is great.

QuoteIs the idea the commercially successful = lower quality prevalent?

It's a prevalent idea in any creative community, which says nothing about its validity.

KoOS

Quote from: J ArcaneThat's not a response, that's a list of excuses.

I have a friend in Vancouver who's a gamer, and also married, with kids, and an IT job that takes up a hell of a lot of time.

Yet he's constantly showing up with new games, and endlessly inquisitive about finding even more.

He wants to be able to maximize his enjoyment time by seeking out ever newer, cooler ways to enjoy that leisure time.

Did you not read a word I said? Those were not excuses.  I specifically said there are people for whom maxmizing enjoyment of leisure time is trying new things . For others, it's going with what they know.

Why is one right and one wrong?

Are the questions that damaging that you can't answer them? Bully for your friend, I'm glad he gets his fill doing as he sees fit! Why is it wrong for me to maximize my time the way I know is best for me?

For a guy who claims Pundit is all about badwrongfun you sure seem to be telling me mine is - and in no uncertain terms.

QuoteFor being resolutely unwilling to even look at alternatives when they're offered to you? Hell yes. Just like food, if you told me that because you liked hamburgers you weren't willing to even look at the seafood restaurant across the street, I'd tell you that you were an ignorant twat. Same with games. Blissful ignorance isn't a virtue, ever.

Bingo.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolBlissful ignorance isn't a virtue, ever.

Wow - really? Never? Not even with an unimportant silly hobby where I play lets pretend?

Man, this world is harsh.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolI think the makers of D&D are constrained from its commercial success from perhaps stretching as far creatively as they might like; Monte Cook said as much when he started Malhavoc Press.  That said, I think D&D 3.x is great.

See, now that's the kind of interesting comment I was hoping for!

Quote from: King of Old SchoolIt's a prevalent idea in any creative community, which says nothing about its validity.

Good point. I believe I agree with your assertion.

Quote from: James J SkachIs the idea the commercially successful = lower quality prevalent?

The idea is prevalent, and there is a certain validity to it.  Now, without some sort of commercial reward, a lot of fantastic products will never get produced -- there's little incentive for putting the needed energy into them.  But on the flip-side, the commercial aspect of the business model necessitates that some things need to be produced in order to generate revenue, whether they're inspired or not, whether they're any good or not.  So, being "commercial" carries a lot of guilt by association, whether it's merited or not.

!i!

Quote from: J ArcaneBingo.

Except, you see, I don't, in general, like seafood.  King Crab is about all I eat of seafood.

So my refusal is bad, how, again?

Quote from: James J SkachExcept, you see, I don't, in general, like seafood.  King Crab is about all I eat of seafood.

So my refusal is bad, how, again?

There's a difference between trying something, and not liking it, and never trying it at all.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaI mis-phrased that.  When was the last time you saw this happen?

Why do I have to give you a specific date?

Seanchai

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe idea is prevalent, and there is a certain validity to it.  Now, without some sort of commercial reward, a lot of fantastic products will never get produced -- there's little incentive for putting the needed energy into them.  But on the flip-side, the commercial aspect of the business model necessitates that some things need to be produced in order to generate revenue, whether they're inspired or not, whether they're any good or not.  So, being "commercial" carries a lot of guilt by association, whether it's merited or not.

!i!

But in the answer you and KoOS provide, both answers are, essentially, no.  Commercial does not automatically mean lower quality. the chances are based on, I would suppose, company history? And with one so all over the board as TSR/WOTC/Hasbro, how could one make a judgement except to say it's a crap shoot.

What about Steve Jackson games, or WOD stuff - what's the history like there? Is it enough to make a judgement one way for the other?

And what about the flipside - is something Indie Press or small publisher automatically of greater quality? Not accusatory, strictly curious about opinions and how they shape discussions...

Quote from: J ArcaneYes.  Me.  I don't believe in intentionally limiting one's own experiences, and I never will.  Whether it's games, or movies, or food, or any number of other things, I think it's a fundamentally broken behavior to ignore the wealth of diversity this world has to offer out of sheer laziness or mindless conservatism.

So how did putting your penis in a blender work out for you?

Seanchai

Quote from: J ArcaneHe's already modded one person in the past for disagreeing with him too loudly and too often.

If you're referring to me, he's also un-modded me both times. It remains to be seen whether any disagreements I have with him now that he's back from vacation trigger a third time.

Quote from: King of Old SchoolBlissful ignorance isn't a virtue, ever.

Sorry, this is one of those blanket statements that I'm going to have to ask for some backing on. What is wrong with enjoying yourself the same way over and over again when you know it works?

For the record, I'm very pro-versatility, but when you start bashing people for doing what they like, you lose me. I've got Slayer, Mozart, Eminem, Pink Floyd, Tool, Norah Jones, Wagner, and God knows who else in my CD case in my car because I like different things on different days. I also know people who only ever listen to one radio station and the artists played there. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them different.

I think there's an excluded middle some peeps need to work out.

Quote from: J ArcaneThere's a difference between trying something, and not liking it, and never trying it at all.

OK, but I guess my point is that I know write off, almost wholesale, seafood resturants. I know from experieince that it's not my cuppa...

So now, let's apply that to gaming. Having played for decades and in all kinds of groups, is it not within my experiences to make a judgement about whether or not I need to try anything else, or have I done enough that I can tell, just by looking, whether I will like a game or not? what's the cutoff? when is it OK and when am I lazy or mindless?

See, I don't have a problem with the different approaches.  I think both are valid and it will depend on the person.  I have a problem with blanket judgements about how one approach is right and the other wrong. I find, interestingly (and not necessarily appropos to this discussion) that it's the often the very people who preach tolerance and acceptance who make these judgements. Like a some-animals-are-more-equal-than-others thingie.

Quote from: SeanchaiSo how did putting your penis in a blender work out for you?

Well, y'know, it's on my list ... but there's just so many things I want to stick my penis into, and I don't have as much time as I did in my student days. :(

Quote from: SeanchaiWhy do I have to give you a specific date?

Because people change over time.  Seeing this sort of thing happen five years ago and seeing it happen this morning are worlds apart.

!i!

Quote from: TonyLBWell, y'know, it's on my list ... but there's just so many things I want to stick my penis into, and I don't have as much time as I did in my student days. :(

Nor as much penis :eek:

Quote from: TonyLBWell, y'know, it's on my list ... but there's just so many things I want to stick my penis into, and I don't have as much time as I did in my student days. :(

Finally! Someone with an open mind!

Seanchai

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaFine.  I'll strike a deal here.  If Pundit and Settembrini will state whether or not they're homosexuals, I'll state whether or not I think D&D is commercial shit.  None of our answers will have a bearing on anything, and none of them are anyone else's business, but this seems to have become the raison d'être for this thread.

!i!

If you don't want to answer the question, why not just say so, rather than continuing with this Internet dickery?

Wow, folks here sure get riled up about the best way to sit in a dining room and pretend to be a gay-ass elf.

-O

Quote from: James J SkachBut in the answer you and KoOS provide, both answers are, essentially, no.

Very, very true.  It's not a definitive "no," though -- it's a qualified "no."  Commerciality is usually more of a scatter-shot approach.  Throw a lot of product at the target audience, and some of them will stick.

QuoteAnd what about the flipside - is something Indie Press or small publisher automatically of greater quality? Not accusatory, strictly curious about opinions and how they shape discussions...

Another good point.  I've seen a lot of "indie" products of plainly poor quality that the commercial process (editorial influence, directorial decision, etc.) would have kept out of the market.  Sometimes freedom from oversight is a curse as well as a blessing.

!i!

You simply cannot make a judgement about something without having actually given it an honest try.  I can't believe I'm having to debate such tired "lessons your mother taught you", but apparently I do.

The seafood thing is a fine example, and one close to my particular field.

A lot of people in America are convinced they don't like seafood.  But the vast, vast majority of those people don't like seafood because they've never actually had any good seafood.  

The fish that is frequently sold in supermarkets around the country often isn't actually good anymore.  That smell that so many people learn from a young age to associate with fish and seafood, is actually the smell of fish that's going bad.  

It's just that most of them have been wrongly educated to somehow fish is supposed to smell and taste like that.

So then we come to sushi.  The vast majority of the American public dismisses the very concept of raw fish out of hand without even trying it, because they supposedly "know what fish tastes like".  Despite the fact that actual, quality fresh fish doesn't taste anything like the flavor they're thinking of.  Fresh raw tuna actually has a meaty taste more resembling rare beef, but with a softer texture.  

"Don't knock it 'til you've tried it."

For all you know, you could be wrong in dismissing category X, or you could find that there's some thing out there that you'd like even better than what you've already been eating and thought was a favorite.  And sometimes just eating the same fucking thing every day gets really old.  Even if it's something you really like.  We can't all eat cake for every meal.

I think therefore, that I owe myself a duty to try as much as I can, and it sometimes pains me just to think about how little I've tried out there, and how much more I want to try before I shuffle off this rock, and whether I'll find time to try it all.  

But rather than give up, I go out, and I try to branch out as much as I can.  I'm constantly seeking new things to try, whether it's games or food.  I've bought countless oddities in my lifetime, not all of them successes, but I never regret trying something new, because in trying something new I'm also learning jsut that tiny bit more about the world I inhabit.

I have even, on countless occasions gone out of my way to try something I was pretty much certain I was going to dislike.  And have found myself pleasantly wrong on quite a few of them.

Quote from: J ArcaneYou simply cannot make a judgement about something without having actually given it an honest try.  I can't believe I'm having to debate such tired "lessons your mother taught you", but apparently I do.

The seafood thing is a fine example, and one close to my particular field.

A lot of people in America are convinced they don't like seafood.  But the vast, vast majority of those people don't like seafood because they've never actually had any good seafood.  

The fish that is frequently sold in supermarkets around the country often isn't actually good anymore.  That smell that so many people learn from a young age to associate with fish and seafood, is actually the smell of fish that's going bad.  

It's just that most of them have been wrongly educated to somehow fish is supposed to smell and taste like that.

So then we come to sushi.  The vast majority of the American public dismisses the very concept of raw fish out of hand without even trying it, because they supposedly "know what fish tastes like".  Despite the fact that actual, quality fresh fish doesn't taste anything like the flavor they're thinking of.  Fresh raw tuna actually has a meaty taste more resembling rare beef, but with a softer texture.  

"Don't knock it 'til you've tried it."

For all you know, you could be wrong in dismissing category X, or you could find that there's some thing out there that you'd like even better than what you've already been eating and thought was a favorite.  And sometimes just eating the same fucking thing every day gets really old.  Even if it's something you really like.  We can't all eat cake for every meal.

I think therefore, that I owe myself a duty to try as much as I can, and it sometimes pains me just to think about how little I've tried out there, and how much more I want to try before I shuffle off this rock, and whether I'll find time to try it all.  

But rather than give up, I go out, and I try to branch out as much as I can.  I'm constantly seeking new things to try, whether it's games or food.  I've bought countless oddities in my lifetime, not all of them successes, but I never regret trying something new, because in trying something new I'm also learning jsut that tiny bit more about the world I inhabit.

Jeez, you sound like my dad. He was lamenting my unwillingness to try new things when it came to food, specifically seafood. When I go to a restaurant, I almost always order a burger and fries, with either a lemonade or strawberry dachary for a drink. I do that every time, provided we don't go out for pizza or Chinese food. All my friends have a wider variety of tastes than I do, but apparently I'm a stick-in-the-mud.

And I'm at peace with that. ;)

Quote from: J ArcaneYou simply cannot make a judgement about something without having actually given it an honest try.  I can't believe I'm having to debate such tired "lessons your mother taught you", but apparently I do.

What is your judgement on the act of sticking your dick in a baby? Presumably you've either tried it or you have no judgements.

Or to use a less extreme example, I know for a fact that I do not like even the mildest of jalapenos. My little girly tongue just can't stand the fire, no matter how low key. Knowing that, when handed a different type of food that I know is also spicy, you would expect me to bite into it and feel the burn on the off chance I might like it this time?

Just because your mother said "try it, you might like it" doesn't mean that you have to try everything to know if you'll like it. Things you have no reference for? Sure, if you don't try you'll never know. Things you've had similar experiences with? Not always. The only times you have to try the similar things is when your idea of similar doesn't match reality (i.e. thinking peppers are similar to hot dogs because they're both "hot").

Quote from: James McMurrayWhat is your judgement on the act of sticking your dick in a baby? Presumably you've either tried it or you have no judgements.

Check, please! :eek:

EDIT:  To be absolutely clear ... that's the sound of a person in a restaurant trying to get out before the conversation at the next table comes to blows.  Not ... uh ... anything else.

QuoteOr to use a less extreme example, I know for a fact that I do not like even the mildest of jalapenos. My little girly tongue just can't stand the fire, no matter how low key.

And yet, habaneros have one of the most complex flavors of any food I have ever eaten, and if used properly in a dish, can lend no more spice than the black pepper you have on your table.

For a gaming example of the same kind of phenomenon, I loathed AD&D.  I hated the abritrary limitations on characters, I hated the inintuitiveness of a lot of the mechanics, and I hated the lack of unification in those mechanics.

And yet I gave D&D 3rd not one, not two, but three tries, before it finally clicked and I fell madly in love with the game, and now I place it among my absolute favorite games.

Quote from: J ArcaneA lot of people in America are convinced they don't like seafood.  But the vast, vast majority of those people don't like seafood because they've never actually had any good seafood.

That old chestnut. Just how many qualifiers are you going to throw on people's experiences before you'll allow them to "legitimately" disagree with you?

Seanchai

Quote from: J ArcaneAnd yet, habaneros have one of the most complex flavors of any food I have ever eaten, and if used properly in a dish, can lend no more spice than the black pepper you have on your table.

Can't stand black pepper either. Did I meantion I've got the oral pain threshold of a little girl?

QuoteAnd yet I gave D&D 3rd not one, not two, but three tries, before it finally clicked and I fell madly in love with the game, and now I place it among my absolute favorite games.

That's a case of your idea of similar being wrong.

And you never answered the pedophelia question. Do you have an experienced opinion, or is it possible to form an opinion on some things without trying them?

Quote from: SeanchaiThat old chestnut. Just how many qualifiers are you going to throw on people's experiences before you'll allow them to "legitimately" disagree with you?

Seanchai

So you're saying there's no such thing as a misconception?

[size=0]see, I can ask silly questions too![/size]

The difference between your question and Sett's, Ian, is that Sett's is directly relevant to the thread at hand.

That said: I'm not homosexual.

Your turn, motherfucker.

RPGPundit

Quote from: J ArcaneSo you're saying there's no such thing as a misconception?

No, but you're presuming that's the case all the time. Yes, people might try something and make a value judgement based on misinformation. That doesn't mean all value judgements should be called into question - people can try something and make a judgement based on good information as well.

But, really, all you're doing is setting yourself up so that you can negate an opinion without having to work at it.

"I watched some sci fi movies and didn't like them."
"That's because you didn't watch any good sci fi movies."

"I've tried meat, didn't like it, and don't want a bite of your steak."
"You're only saying that because you haven't had any good steak before."

"I listened to some Pearl Jam and didn't like them."
"That's only because you didn't listen to their good song."

Seanchai

Quote from: TonyLBCheck, please! :eek:

EDIT:  To be absolutely clear ... that's the sound of a person in a restaurant trying to get out before the conversation at the next table comes to blows.  Not ... uh ... anything else.

Given that he's apparently determined to continue that line of rhetoric, and that the alternative viewpoint apparently hinges on psychic powers, I think I'll join you.

Quote from: SeanchaiAnd in a few weeks, D&D will be back on top. Because it has staying power - Spanish Fly and all that.

Well, as said, D&D does dominate the statistics. The current list of the 15 most popular RPG products from the last 30 days, from the Fantasiapelit site:

1. D&D Complete Champion (HC)
2. D&D Drow of the Underdark (HC)
3. Night's Dark Masters
4. D&D Spell Compendium (HC)
5. Dragon 355
6. Secrets of Kenya
7. Dungeon 146
8. WOD: Urban Legends
9. D&D Magic Item Compendium (HC)
10. World of Darkness Rulebook (HC)
11. Scion: Hero (HC)
12. WHFRP Game Master's Toolkit
13. Roolipelaaja 08
14. D&D Expedition to The Demonweb Pits (HC)
15. D&D Complete Scoundrel (HC)

Quote from: obrynWow, folks here sure get riled up about the best way to sit in a dining room and pretend to be a gay-ass elf.

-O

My way is the best. Your gay-ass elf is only a mockery of real roleplaying, and you're probably retarded, to boot.

Hm. EDIT: to cover every base.

D&D is not crap and commercial.
Pundit, you've got this crazy hang-up with Exalted. You say pretty much the same thing every time, but you seem way off base, dude. Why you gotta hate on my Exalted playing chums and I?

EDIT again:
What is up with you dudes and sea-food? And sticking your dick in things? It is besides the point, anyhow. Wtf were we talking about again?

Quote from: Thanatos02What is up with you dudes and sea-food? And sticking your dick in things? It is besides the point, anyhow. Wtf were we talking about again?

Well, if I knew it was gonna be THAT kind of party, I would of stuck my dick in the mashed potatoes!

Quote from: J ArcaneGiven that he's apparently determined to continue that line of rhetoric, and that the alternative viewpoint apparently hinges on psychic powers, I think I'll join you.

So what you're apparently saying is that you can make decisions about things without trying them, just not food, rpgs, music, and whatever other items you have on your list?

What is it about some things that lets you know in advance? Why is it impossible for a game to fall into that category?

Can I get a quick show of hands? Are there people here who think that playing a more obscure game is bad because it's more obscure?

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaGuilty as charged.Fine.  I'll strike a deal here.  If Pundit and Settembrini will state whether or not they're homosexuals, I'll state whether or not I think D&D is commercial shit.  None of our answers will have a bearing on anything, and none of them are anyone else's business, but this seems to have become the raison d'être for this thread.

!i!

First of all: commercial AND shit.

The thing is, you didn't even have to answer yes or no. As an open question, you could have written all the context you wanted. You totally controlled the context at that point. And you didn't even have to come down one way or another on either side.

Quote from: Thanatos02My way is the best. Your gay-ass elf is only a mockery of real roleplaying, and you're probably retarded, to boot.

ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION!  WHAT IS YOUR WAY OF PLAYING A GAY-ASS ELF?  AND ARE YOU YOURSELF GAY-ASS?  OR A COMMUNIST?

-O

Quote from: RPGPunditThe difference between your question and Sett's, Ian, is that Sett's is directly relevant to the thread at hand.

Horse shit. From the start, it was an attempt to read something more into what I had written. So was your disingenuous badgering.

QuoteThat said: I'm not homosexual.

Liar. :p

QuoteYour turn, motherfucker.

I think D&D is commercial (d'uh!), but not shit as a whole.

Disappointed?  You shouldn't be.  I know you've personally participated in threads where I've stated as much previously.

!i!

Quote from: J ArcaneYes.  Me.  I don't believe in intentionally limiting one's own experiences, and I never will.  Whether it's games, or movies, or food, or any number of other things, I think it's a fundamentally broken behavior to ignore the wealth of diversity this world has to offer out of sheer laziness or mindless conservatism.

I think you've got it wrong J. The thing is by saying that folks who don't try new things (even though they are having fun doing what they do) is fundamentally broken behaviour ... well,it's right up there with Swine & Brain Damage.

I don't think it's particularly constructive to make value judgements on the way how people play or the games they play or don't play or should at least try to play. Essentially what you're saying is that gamers who do not want try new things are having badwrongfun in the way how they play rpgs. So not on J.

I mean the only real division I see in rpgs are those folks who like a variety of games and those who are having fun with a particular game. In both cases it's about having fun and with the former the discovery of different ways to have fun.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: obrynANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION!  WHAT IS YOUR WAY OF PLAYING A GAY-ASS ELF?  AND ARE YOU YOURSELF GAY-ASS?  OR A COMMUNIST?

-O

Well, I guess my elf is having sex with other elves of the same gender? I'm not gay, but I'm a communist.
After all the buildup, it's not really a very impressive punchline?

Quote from: Ian Absentia:pI think D&D is commercial (d'uh!), but not shit as a whole.

Disappointed?  You shouldn't be.  I know you've personally participated in threads where I've stated as much previously.

!i!

I can't speak for Pundit, but I'm not disappointed. I'm relieved you finally answered a fucking question like an almost normal person. And that's all you had to say, instead of perpetuating this ridiculous mental masturbation. Honestly, getting an answer from you was like pulling teeth, so it's no wonder Sett and Pundit were taking the roles of "Internet Dentist". :haw:

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAmazon sales rank of Exalted Second Ed. right now: #19,976

Some Amazon book sales ranks as of tonight:

Turnaround (http://www.amazon.com/Turnaround-Mitt-Romney/dp/1596985143/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179969655&sr=1-2) (by Mitt Romney) - #320,905
Book of Erotic Fantasy (D20) (http://www.amazon.com/Book-Erotic-Fantasy-Gwendolyn-Kestrel/dp/1588463990/ref=sr_1_450/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179970095&sr=1-450) - #232,586
Unknown Armies (2nd Edition) (http://www.amazon.com/Armies-2nd-Greg-Stolze/dp/1589780132/ref=sr_1_409/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179970034&sr=1-409) - #217,966
GURPS Basic Set: Characters, Fourth Edition (http://www.amazon.com/GURPS-Basic-Set-Characters-Fourth/dp/1556347294/ref=sr_1_3/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179970557&sr=1-3) - #164,882
Werewolf: the Forsaken (http://www.amazon.com/Werewolf-Forsaken-White-Wolf/dp/1588463249/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179970414&sr=1-1) - #126,103
Leadership (http://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Rudolph-W-Giuliani/dp/B000ESSSLG/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179969717&sr=1-1) (by Rudy Giuliani) - #119,795
Monte Cook Presents Iron Heroes (http://www.amazon.com/Monte-Cook-Presents-Iron-Heroes/dp/1588467961/ref=sr_1_361/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179969776&sr=1-361) - #112,995
Paranoia XP (http://www.amazon.com/Paranoia-XP-Varney/dp/1904854265/ref=sr_1_224/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179968957&sr=1-224) - #86,507
Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game (http://www.amazon.com/Palladium-Books-Presents-Fantasy-Role-Playing/dp/0916211916/ref=sr_1_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179969185&sr=1-1) - #84,968
Exalted 2E (http://www.amazon.com/Exalted-Second-Alan-Alexander/dp/1588466841/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179967653&sr=8-2) - #75,382
The World of Darkness (http://www.amazon.com/World-Darkness-White-Wolf-Studio/dp/1588464849/ref=sr_1_50/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179967895&sr=1-50) - #66,310
The Holy Bible: King James Version (http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Bible-King-James-Version/dp/0529064634/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179970939&sr=8-1) - #57,723
Scion (http://www.amazon.com/Scion-Hero-Justin-Achilli/dp/1588464687/ref=sr_1_26/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179967523&sr=1-26) - #54,512
Player's Handbook: Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, Second Edition (http://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Advanced-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786903295/ref=sr_1_79/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179968320&sr=1-79) - #52,614
Vampire: The Requiem (http://www.amazon.com/Vampire-Requiem-World-Darkness/dp/1588462471/ref=sr_1_68/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179967895&sr=1-68) - #52,004
Mage: The Awakening (http://www.amazon.com/Mage-Awakening-Storytelling-Modern-Sorcery/dp/1588464180/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179970318&sr=1-1) - #51,522
World's Largest Dungeon (http://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Largest-Dungeon-Alderac-Entertainment/dp/1594720290/ref=sr_1_493/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179970251&sr=1-493) - #51,363
Rifts Ultimate Edition Rpg (http://www.amazon.com/Rifts-Ultimate-Rpg/dp/1574571508/ref=sr_1_407/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179969807&sr=1-407) - #48,455
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2E (http://www.amazon.com/Warhammer-Fantasy-Roleplay-Perilous-Adventure/dp/1844162206/ref=sr_1_69/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179967895&sr=1-69) - #46,870
Classic Battletech: Total Warfare (http://www.amazon.com/Classic-Battletech-Total-Warfare-FPR35101/dp/1932564772/ref=sr_1_199/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179968918&sr=1-199) - #43,389
Promethean the Created (http://www.amazon.com/Promethean-Created/dp/158846606X/ref=sr_1_257/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179969150&sr=1-257) - #40,974
Dungeon Master's Guide II (http://www.amazon.com/Dungeon-Masters-Guide-Dragons-Supplement/dp/0786936878/ref=sr_1_56/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179967895&sr=1-56) - #28,280
Serenity Role Playing Game (http://www.amazon.com/Serenity-Role-Playing-Game/dp/1931567506/ref=sr_1_94/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179968320&sr=1-94) - #24,581
Shadowrun 4E (http://www.amazon.com/Shadowrun-Fourth-Fanpro/dp/1932564667/ref=sr_1_27/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179967523&sr=1-27) - #24,432
Living History (http://www.amazon.com/Living-History-Hillary-Rodham-Clinton/dp/0743222253/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179969483&sr=1-1) (by Hillary Clinton) - #21,529
Hidden Crypts Dungeon Tiles, Set 3 (http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Dungeon-Dungeons-Dragons-Accessory/dp/0786941561/ref=sr_1_59/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179967895&sr=1-59) - #18,047
Monster Manual I 3.5 (http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Manual-Rulebook-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/078692893X/ref=sr_1_19/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179967495&sr=1-19) - #6,313
D&D 3.5 (Player's) (http://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Rulebook-Dungeons-Dragons/dp/0786928867/ref=sr_1_6/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179967895&sr=1-6) - #3,141
The Audacity of Hope (http://www.amazon.com/Audacity-Hope-Thoughts-Reclaiming-American/dp/0307237699/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179969761&sr=1-1) (by Barack Obama) - #130
The Children of Hurin (http://www.amazon.com/Children-Hurin-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0618894640/ref=pd_ts_b_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books) (by JRR Tolkien) - #15
The Assault on Reason (http://www.amazon.com/Assault-Reason-Al-Gore/dp/1594201226/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179969556&sr=1-1) (by Al Gore) - #3
A Thousand Splendid Suns (http://www.amazon.com/Thousand-Splendid-Suns-Khaled-Hosseini/dp/1594489505/ref=pd_ts_b_2/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books) (by Khaled Hosseini) - #2
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Book 7) (http://www.amazon.com/Harry-Potter-Deathly-Hallows-Book/dp/0545010225/ref=sr_1_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179970735&sr=1-1) - #1

If you were looking at a different rank, I'd be glad to know which one (my Amazon-Fu is weak). In any case, Amazon ranks are pointless.

Quote from: Sacrificial LambI'm relieved you finally answered a fucking question like an almost normal person.

Why do you have any interest at all?

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaWhy do you have any interest at all?

!i!

It's an Internet message board. This shit is my brain candy. :D

Quote from: Sacrificial LambIt's an Internet message board. This shit is my brain candy. :D

Does that fall under the category of "almost normal person"? ;)

!i!

Quote from: JongWKSome Amazon book sales ranks as of tonight:

Fascinating. As of right now, Exalted has dropped a further 7,000 down to 82,000. Has Pundy cast some kind of spell or something?

Try telling my publisher amazon sales ranks are pointless. The little tome on which I worked has been oscillating between 20k and 100k for several years now. Checking the ranks regularly tells us where we stand, both absolutely and relative to others.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaDisappointed?  You shouldn't be.  I know you've personally participated in threads where I've stated as much previously.

You can't expect these guys to go around remembering what people have written. That would require reading what other people had written, and that would cut into their writing-new-rants time. If they go down that path, before you know it they'll be speaking clearly, thinking clearly, getting into open and honest conversations and exchanging enthusiasm and ideas with people.

And THEN what will happen, eh? What are you trying to do to this message board, motherfucker?! :pundit:

Quote from: Sacrificial LambI can't speak for Pundit, but I'm not disappointed. I'm relieved you finally answered a fucking question like an almost normal person. And that's all you had to say, instead of perpetuating this ridiculous mental masturbation. Honestly, getting an answer from you was like pulling teeth, so it's no wonder Sett and Pundit were taking the roles of "Internet Dentist". :haw:

Well put.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Pierce InverarityFascinating. As of right now, Exalted has dropped a further 7,000 down to 82,000. Has Pundy cast some kind of spell or something?

I have some contacts.  :mason:

In any case, 75000 or so, compared to 3000 or so for D&D.  That's quite the difference between "Mainstream" or not.

RPGPundit

Quote from: SeanchaiFinally! Someone with an open mind!

No, Finally! Some Wit!

Quote from: J Arcane"Don't knock it 'til you've tried it."

One time, there was this crazy guy who would just NOT leave me alone. He wanted me to try some green eggs and ham, and he followed me everywhere, to my home, to my boat. He even stalked me online and trolled message boards I frequented. EVERYWHERE. He was relentless. I almost got a restraining order before he said something very much like you did, and being the open minded seeker of truth I am, I tried it.

And you know what...





...I got the WORST case of food poisoning my doctor had ever seen! He said I'm lucky to be alive, and to this day still asks me: "What the HELL could have possessed you to eat GREEN MEAT PRODUCTS?!?"

So lesson learned. I'm NEVER eating green eggs and ham AGAIN...





...though it was tasty.

Quote from: JongWKThe Audacity of Hope (http://www.amazon.com/Audacity-Hope-Thoughts-Reclaiming-American/dp/0307237699/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-3120838-6446539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179969761&sr=1-1) (by Barack Obama) - #130

Wow, Kevin Siembieda will be pissed, cause that's the title for the 'Crisis of Treachery' sequel.

Woo-Hoo!!

 GURPS 4th is beating WEREWOLF and the King James Bible!!

 Cool!!!

 Sorry , for the jack, please go back to whatever the argument was about .

- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPunditI have some contacts.  :mason:

In any case, 75000 or so, compared to 3000 or so for D&D.  That's quite the difference between "Mainstream" or not.

RPGPundit

You just. Don't. Get it.

1) D&D is the mainstream. D&D 3.x, Pundy. Not any other kind of D&D, and not d20 either.

2) Exalted is like 3.x. It's powergaming heaven. The only significant diff is the anime stuff. The "with power comes responsibility" BS is just an atmospheric buff-up.

Character build and Lidda.

Character build and big-titted anime girls.

That's your mainstream right there.

Noithing worth fighting for, Pundy. Ditch the populism, have fun playing Qin, and be glad you're not the mainstream.

Qin is utterly awesome for character build.

RPGPundit

How's it doing in the tits department?

Quote from: KoltarWoo-Hoo!!

 ..King James Bible!!

..

I didn't know this man had a Bible.
(http://www.lebron-james.us/images/lebron-james-home.gif)
:D

I play Exalted (albeit with a different system nowadays) and love the powergaming aspects. I want to be a demigod kicking arse in the same way I want to be boatman in WFRP. Different games, different expectations, and I see no reason why the former should exclude the latter.

Conflating Exalted fandom with the RPGnet subculture based around the game is silly. We all know TBP isn't representative of gamers as a whole, right?

@Pierce: I was wondering when it would be, that someone else would see this one and only real flaw in Pundit-logic.
Oh there´s another one, actually:

His take on Supers. He could sit down right with Ron and have a ultra-thematic campaign they totally enjoy, and both of them wouldn´t even notice.

Quote from: HinterWeltWell, if I knew it was gonna be THAT kind of party, I would of stuck my dick in the mashed potatoes!

I can't stand it!  I know you planned it!  I got set it straight, this Watergate!

Quote from: PierceYou just. Don't. Get it.

1) D&D is the mainstream. D&D 3.x, Pundy. Not any other kind of D&D, and not d20 either.

2) Exalted is like 3.x. It's powergaming heaven. The only significant diff is the anime stuff. The "with power comes responsibility" BS is just an atmospheric buff-up.

Character build and Lidda.

Character build and big-titted anime girls.

That's your mainstream right there.

Noithing worth fighting for, Pundy. Ditch the populism, have fun playing Qin, and be glad you're not the mainstream.

To get back on target, I'd argue that there's at least one big difference between core 3.5 and 1st edition Exalted (I've not read 2nd).  D&D doesn't try to get you to swallow a horsepill-sized dose of setting before you reach the chapter on chargen.  I hate that.

Well there must be at least on difference between Exalted and D&D, otherwise it´d be no heartbreaker.

Quote from: SettembriniWell there must be at least on difference between Exalted and D&D, otherwise it´d be no heartbreaker.

There's two differences:

- The Storyteller system. I believe technically a Fantasy Heartbreaker should have a system which is very obviously someone's heavily-houseruled take on D&D, with the occasional innovative bit.

- Vaguely kung fu/wuxia influenced aesthetics and setting, which simply taps into a different market from the Tolkein/Vance/Moorcock fantasy D&D draws on.

The crazy ass dice pools I'll grant you, but D&D has had kung fu monks since Supplement II Blackmoor.  That came out in what, '76 or '77?  At least 2 different ninja classes (or is it 3, I have notes on this at home) were published in Dragon well before anyone talked about an Oriental Adventures book.  The relatively new Tome of Battle: Book of 9 Swords is chock full of wuxia type action.

...I´d add mention of the Immortals box as well as deities & demigods.

Sure, Exalted has some things original to it. But that isn´t seperating it enough from D&D.

But: The GM advice is totally different!

There's tons of differences between stock D&D and stock Exalted.

• D&D starts you as a peasant just out of ass kicking school, Exalted starts you out as better than 85% of Creation.
• The rules system is obviously vastly different.
• There are a lot more planes of reality in D&D
• Exalted has rules to encourage fights to not be sing/hit/swing/miss cycles (not that they're necessary, but they can be helpful)

To me the biggest difference is that Exalted handles epic level D&D type stuff better than Epic Level D&D. The ELH was an addon to a system not designed to support it. Exalted was designed for Epic at the ground up. Those two facts are pretty obvious when you play the systems.

If you define mainstream to involve some variant of game style, Exalted is as mainstream as any of the D&Ds, despite what a few goobs on the net might try to tell you about how emo it is. If you define it as sales figures, pretty much only D&D 3.x is mainstream, which means that Amber, all prior D&D editions, and eventually Forward To Adventure are or will not be main stream games.

Personally, I prefer the definition that lets cool shit be cool. YMMV.

Quote from: jrientsTo get back on target, I'd argue that there's at least one big difference between core 3.5 and 1st edition Exalted (I've not read 2nd).  D&D doesn't try to get you to swallow a horsepill-sized dose of setting before you reach the chapter on chargen.  I hate that.

IMO, yes and no. I mean, just the barest reading will tell you that Creation is huge; it's significantly bigger then Earth. Plus, the map has square after square of blank land ideal for kingdoms, villages, dungeons, and all the rest. Out-of-box, the Solars are the only group without significant individual ties to the meta-plot. The vanilla-ness of the Solars that, say, RPG.net complains (and lauds, in turns) stops you from needing to know all that much about the world.

OTOH, White Wolf has always had a huge love-on for telling you every last thing about their world, and if you want to play Dragon Bloods or Sidereals, there's all this accompanying baggage. Sure you can ditch it, but there's always some mastabatory canon-head going to tell you that Gem doesn't have a democratically elected head of state like the DM wants it to, but a dictator for life beholden to the Relm. Or something. You know what I'm talking about.

Plus, you have to read a little to get an interpretation on that map. I dunno.

Exalted isn't a D&D heartbreaker, too much is different. The premise is different. Magic is significantly different. The power level is pretty different. The cosmology is way different. The mechanics are very different indeed. There's way too much bleed between niches to argue for significant niche protection. (You've got castes, but they feel like more of a holdover then anything else.) No levels, either.

I mean, not everything fantasy is D&D. Now, you can't really make a fantasy role-playing game and be unaware of the behemoth that is D&D but... well, look at it this way; if it's a heartbreaker, you really ought to be able to port it over fairly easily. You can't port Exalted easily at all. You'd have to rejigger the system in a rediculous way.

Exalted is utter crap written by pretentious shitheads who have an anti-human stance because they're so utterly unable to aspire to qualify as worthwhile human beings.

Its garbage, like everything else White Wolf has ever done or ever will do.

RPGPundit

As much as I just want to reply "troll" to that, instead I'll assure you that you are free to hold whatever opinions you want. There are many that disagree with you, but that won't change the fact that Exalted is not the game for you.

Quote from: Thanatos02OTOH, White Wolf has always had a huge love-on for telling you every last thing about their world, and if you want to play Dragon Bloods or Sidereals, there's all this accompanying baggage. Sure you can ditch it, but there's always some mastabatory canon-head going to tell you that Gem doesn't have a democratically elected head of state like the DM wants it to, but a dictator for life beholden to the Relm. Or something. You know what I'm talking about.

I was JUST talking about this very issue regarding metaplots in a thread at another forum, and I mentioned that this is ESPECIALLY annoying because everyone at the table has to ditch the SAME accompanying baggage, or else there will be problems.

Is it perhaps that Exalted, with all its signature characters and metaplot, does not GIVE the power to create a story to the players, but keeps it in the hands of the designers/writers?

Quote from: RPGPunditIts garbage, like everything else White Wolf has ever done or ever will do.

Well, I liked the Street Fighter game ;)

And they had some nice Lankhmar collections.

Quote from: chaosvoyagerI was JUST talking about this very issue regarding metaplots in a thread at another forum, and I mentioned that this is ESPECIALLY annoying because everyone at the table has to ditch the SAME accompanying baggage, or else there will be problems.

Is it perhaps that Exalted, with all its signature characters and metaplot, does not GIVE the power to create a story to the players, but keeps it in the hands of the designers/writers?

Nah, you can still do whatever you want in Exalted, with or without the metaplot. Creation is huge (over 100,000 miles across and 80,000 miles North to South). Huge swaths of the map have been and will be left blank for the GM to fill in however he wants.

If you have a player that insists he knows everything about the setting and anything you make slightly different is wrong you'll have troubles. But that kind of player is probably going to be trouble with or without a well defined campaign setting.

Quote from: chaosvoyagerIs it perhaps that Exalted, with all its signature characters and metaplot, does not GIVE the power to create a story to the players, but keeps it in the hands of the designers/writers?

Technically, Exalted doesn't really have a metaplot as such, except perhaps in an odd reverse fashion: instead, the background of the setting and the timeline up to the present moment become increasingly detailed with each further supplement.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd as for Exalted, I not only do not know ANYONE who has actually played Exalted in the real world, I don't even know anyone who knows anyone in the real world who has played Exalted. In my entire history as a gamer, I have met only one person in the real world who actually owned the Exalted book, and he regretted buying it. Its a nonentity, popular only in the sick minds of the RPG.net fashionistas.

While I won't argue that Exalted is bigger than D&D, Exalted players exist. I'm aware of several games in my area, and when I cast out a net for players for my Exalted game I got more than I could possibly use. When I used to go to game stores, they would often sell out of the core book and the supplements.

As for FATE - I think it will become a cult classic that will probably reach the ranks that many games systems that are not d20, Storyteller or GURPS reach. It's a fantastic game, but I have no illusions of it knocking any other game off of any perches any more than I think SilCore would do it. They're niche games and nothing else.

Well... as to the people who play, my friends in high school all played more or less strictly DnD. After moving away and doing our own thing for a bit, I found out more or less all of us picked up a new system. A friend of mine picked up exalted. Another had been eyeing GURPS to begin with. I picked up Tristat and (on a suggestion from someone here... can't remember who, but thanks) F20.

DnD is the only game all of us will both run and play, but I don't see it as necessarily an exclusive relationship. A couple friends of mine have agreed to a tristat PbP I'll be running, and if I get a chance when I'm back in town this summer, I'd be happy to try Exalted or even GURPS (I am innately prejudiced, but the guy who picked it up is a good GM) on for size.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityFascinating. As of right now, Exalted has dropped a further 7,000 down to 82,000. Has Pundy cast some kind of spell or something?

Try telling my publisher amazon sales ranks are pointless. The little tome on which I worked has been oscillating between 20k and 100k for several years now. Checking the ranks regularly tells us where we stand, both absolutely and relative to others.

Yeah but as of this morning Exalted: The Lunars was ranked #19,867. To me that indicates that the corebook sales for Exalted 2e have probably slipped (mostly because most people who want to play the game have it). Given that the difference between the best selling D&D books anb any other RPG supplement is at least 12,000 tells us that most non-D&D games are swimming in roughly the same pond and it's just a matter of who bubbles up to the top at any one point. I might be wrong, but with good numbers and a solid background in economic theory someone might be able to figure out how that works. Like that would happen.

Quote from: RPGPunditExalted is utter crap written by pretentious shitheads who have an anti-human stance because they're so utterly unable to aspire to qualify as worthwhile human beings.

Its garbage, like everything else White Wolf has ever done or ever will do.

RPGPundit

 No, tell us what you really think.

 Want to hear a lame game store joke about Exalted ?

White Wolf created Exalted so they would finally meet fans and gamers that had clothing in other colors beside black.

Quote from: WilYeah but as of this morning Exalted: The Lunars was ranked #19,867. To me that indicates that the corebook sales for Exalted 2e have probably slipped (mostly because most people who want to play the game have it). Given that the difference between the best selling D&D books anb any other RPG supplement is at least 12,000 tells us that most non-D&D games are swimming in roughly the same pond and it's just a matter of who bubbles up to the top at any one point. I might be wrong, but with good numbers and a solid background in economic theory someone might be able to figure out how that works. Like that would happen.

Well, what this fluctuation seems to mean is that if you sell 9 copies today and just 2 tomorrow, that's enough to drop several thousand ranks. When I posted that E 2E corebook figure two days ago, it was at 19K-something. This *may* mean that from a certain point on sales figures are very low for a very large number of books. The question is: from which point on, precisely? 1K? 5K? 10K?

EDIT: Holy shit! I just checked, and my own book jumped from 120K last night to 29K today. So... yeah.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWell, what this fluctuation seems to mean is that if you sell 9 copies today and just 2 tomorrow, that's enough to drop several thousand ranks. When I posted that E 2E corebook figure two days ago, it was at 19K-something. This *may* mean that from a certain point on sales figures are very low for a very large number of books. The question is: from which point on, precisely? 1K? 5K? 10K?

EDIT: Holy shit! I just checked, and my own book jumped from 120K last night to 29K today. So... yeah.

Yeah, that's the "bubbling up" thing. At any point in time, fluctuations seem to be a function of the last book sold, as you can see here (http://fluff.info/blog/arch/00000188.htm) - the ranking jumps when particular title sells, and drifts as the amount of time between sales increases. So books at the top are consistently selling books, others below 100,000 not so much.

EDIT: Here's another interesting way to look at it. The Exalted 2e core has 21 reviews with a rating of 4.5 stars. The D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook has 118 reviews with a rating of 3.5 stars. Either a small group of die hard Exalted fans are reviewing the book and giving it high marks, or a majority of D&D buyers don't care enough to review the PHB. I suspect it's more complicated than that.

Quote from: WilWhile I won't argue that Exalted is bigger than D&D, Exalted players exist.

Stuart, one of my D&D buds has played in a couple local Exalted campaigns.  We keep gently pushing him to run it for us, but he has so far declined.

Quote from: RPGPunditExalted is utter crap written by pretentious shitheads who have an anti-human stance because they're so utterly unable to aspire to qualify as worthwhile human beings.

Its garbage, like everything else White Wolf has ever done or ever will do.

RPGPundit

Bullshit.

Quote from: James McMurrayNah, you can still do whatever you want in Exalted, with or without the metaplot. Creation is huge (over 100,000 miles across and 80,000 miles North to South). Huge swaths of the map have been and will be left blank for the GM to fill in however he wants.

If you have a player that insists he knows everything about the setting and anything you make slightly different is wrong you'll have troubles. But that kind of player is probably going to be trouble with or without a well defined campaign setting.

It's really no worse then any setting with a canon. Forgotten Realms, for example, is bloated with it; it's probably worse then Exalted. Exalted, as bad as it could be, is a lot better then its forerunners like Vampire.

The Realms arn't really my cuppa (though I don't have any amazing issues with the setting), but the issue with canon comes up a lot with them too. People can either deal with it, enjoy it, or leave it be. In the end, at least canon doesn't fuck with mechanics.

Quote from: jrientsStuart, one of my D&D buds has played in a couple local Exalted campaigns.  We keep gently pushing him to run it for us, but he has so far declined.

This area is thick with Exalted players. There's a dedicated group of at least 13 players, off and on, in a small local area. Koltar doesn't see the books moving, which indicates, to me, that most play groups pick up a few games and tend to stick with those for an extended period of time.

There are a lot of jokes about gamers who have to pick up every book they see. No doubt they exist, but there are many, many others who limit themselves to games they expect to play soon.

Quote from: WilYeah, that's the "bubbling up" thing. At any point in time, fluctuations seem to be a function of the last book sold, as you can see here (http://fluff.info/blog/arch/00000188.htm) - the ranking jumps when particular title sells, and drifts as the amount of time between sales increases. So books at the top are consistently selling books, others below 100,000 not so much.

That's an interesting link! So, if I understand this right, amazon's ranking is almost real-time. If so, WTF? Can't they tell their computers to post a weekly average for each book every Monday or so instead? A la NY Times bestseller list?

Quote from: Thanatos02Koltar doesn't see the books moving, which indicates, to me, that most play groups pick up a few games and tend to stick with those for an extended period of time.

Or that, like me, they buy Exalted books at BUY.COM for almost half off the cover price (or Amazon.com for slightly more).

-Andy

Quote from: Thanatos02It's really no worse then any setting with a canon. Forgotten Realms, for example, is bloated with it; it's probably worse then Exalted. Exalted, as bad as it could be, is a lot better then its forerunners like Vampire.

I'd say the Realms are definitely a lot worse than Exalted as far as setting density goes. They have less ground to cover and a lot more materials available. I'd put Greyhawk as fairly close to Exalted, mainly because while it doesn't have anywhere near the amount of stuff Faerun has, it probably has about as much as Exalted, but also has nowhere near as much space.

One thing the D&D games have above Exalted in that regard is the myriad planar settings. If you include them your real estate is effectively infinite. Of course, unless you're creating planes hole cloth you run into issues of planar predispositions. While there are at least 666 and perhaps infinite abyssal layers, each and every one is a world of near to total evil. Likewise with Celestia, which has several layers, but all are vehemently good.

Quote from: James McMurrayOne thing the D&D games have above Exalted in that regard is the myriad planar settings. If you include them your real estate is effectively infinite. Of course, unless you're creating planes hole cloth you run into issues of planar predispositions. While there are at least 666 and perhaps infinite abyssal layers, each and every one is a world of near to total evil. Likewise with Celestia, which has several layers, but all are vehemently good.

That's pretty much what I've called "the Planescape Issue". To me, it was almost the golden mean of canonicity, where you've got finite structure but nearly infinite variety in a world with no metaplot (besides how the whole 2nd Ed./Advanced D&D ruleset canonically 'switched').

However, while the Planes in D&D (usually 3.x) are mainstream in my area, Planescape isn't. Something I consider to be the effect of 3.x mainstreaming gaming in the area in conjunction with White Wolf.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityThat's an interesting link! So, if I understand this right, amazon's ranking is almost real-time. If so, WTF? Can't they tell their computers to post a weekly average for each book every Monday or so instead? A la NY Times bestseller list?

That's what I was wondering as well. The popularity is no indication of total numbers of units sold. So if a copy of a title sells once a week, it might just consistently hover around a certain point. I'm not sure if Amazon makes the precise metrics they use available or not.

And the moral of the story is, if you're going to debate the popularity of a book using stats from Amazon, go order a few copies first.

Quote from: James J SkachI know from experieince that it's not my cuppa...

If you know from experience, on food or gaming or any other subject other the sun, then by definition you're excluding yourself from the population to which J Arcane and I are referring.

KoOS

Quote from: SeanchaiSo how did putting your penis in a blender work out for you?

Reductio ad absurdum aside, there's a qualitative difference between criticizing an unwillingness to try anything different and insisting on a willingness to try everything different.  You do grasp this, yes?

KoOS

Quote from: James McMurrayAnd the moral of the story is, if you're going to debate the popularity of a book using stats from Amazon, go order a few copies first.

If I had the money to spare right now, I'd test this theory out...I want to think they have some kind of sanity check on that, but maybe they don't.

Quote from: James McMurrayFor the record, I'm very pro-versatility, but when you start bashing people for doing what they like, you lose me.

I'm not bashing people for doing what they like.  I'm bashing people who, because they know they like one thing, are unwilling to even consider the possibility that they might like something else as well.  That's an opinion, one you are welcome to share or not as you like, and neither your agreement nor your disagreement will change it.

KoOS

EDIT:  For those with subpar reading skills, I'd like to emphasize the "consider the possibility" part of the above.  I'm not talking about people who choose not to play or eat or [insert activity here] from multiple options, I'm talking about people who dismiss the possibility out of hand without any consideration whatsoever.  I consider that stupidly closed-minded.

Quote from: WilIf I had the money to spare right now, I'd test this theory out...I want to think they have some kind of sanity check on that, but maybe they don't.

Do they have a pay by check option? The plan assumes you can cancel an order and not have to actually pay any money to show proof that FATAL is more popular than Jesus. :D

Quote from: King of Old School... For those with subpar reading skills, I'd like to emphasize the "consider the possibility" part of the above.  I'm not talking about people who choose not to play or eat or [insert activity here] from multiple options, I'm talking about people who dismiss the possibility out of hand without any consideration whatsoever.  I consider that stupidly closed-minded.

Do such people even exist? I think that every thinking person would consider things before rejecting them, be it a long consideration or just a simple thought, maybe their reasons are not the right ones, or maybe they're not even conscious about what those reasons are; but I'm sure that at least at subconscious level they're considering things.

Quote from: UmaSamaDo such people even exist? I think that every thinking person would consider things before rejecting them, be it a long consideration or just a simple thought, maybe their reasons are not the right ones, or maybe they're not even conscious about what those reasons are; but I'm sure that at least at subconscious level they're considering things.

Only in as much as any decision by its nature involves choice. I think King of Old School is talking about those who consciouly dismiss alternatives out of hand.

I don't have a problem with players who do that. Some people still play Basic D&D, and have never felt the desire to change because they're needs are being met. It's part of the beauty of this hobby, a single book can last you a lifetime if it's the right book.

Quote from: James McMurrayI'd say the Realms are definitely a lot worse than Exalted as far as setting density goes.

Except that you're now comparing apples to oranges.  Exalted is an RPG.  The Forgotten Realms is not.

Quote from: jrientsExcept that you're now comparing apples to oranges.  Exalted is an RPG.  The Forgotten Realms is not.

Exalted is both an RPG and a setting, they're just more tightly coupled than the D&D game and its various settings. The discussion was about setting density and how Exalted compares to other games in that regard, so that's what I discussed.

I wasn't trying to say that FR was a game by itself, or that Exalted wasn't a game. I was just saying that as far as setting goes, if you say to your players "we're in the Realms" and they're the type that want everything canon, you may have a much harder time introducing non-canonical stuff.

It's possible to compare apples and oranges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges#Criticism_of_the_idiom), and they actually have a lot more in common than the old saying gives them credit for. :)

Quote from: DrewOnly in as much as any decision by its nature involves choice. I think King of Old School is talking about those who consciouly dismiss alternatives out of hand.

I don't have a problem with players who do that. Some people still play Basic D&D, and have never felt the desire to change because they're needs are being met. It's part of the beauty of this hobby, a single book can last you a lifetime if it's the right book.

Total agreement.

Quote from: James McMurrayExalted is both an RPG and a setting, they're just more tightly coupled than the D&D game and its various settings. The discussion was about setting density and how Exalted compares to other games in that regard, so that's what I discussed.

Yes, but the Forgotten Realms isn't a game, it's a setting.  You yourself just said we were comparing Exalted to other games.  And as I said upthread, one of the key differences between Exalted and D&D is that one game puts a huge chunk of setting infodump in front of the chargen.  The clear implication is that you need to read all that crap before making a character.  That the Forgotten Realms is also chock full of setting has little to bear on it, given that we were discussing the difference between D&D and Exalted.  You can play D&D as written without the Forgotten Realms.  I don't think you can make the same claim about Exalted and Creation.

Quote from: UmaSamaDo such people even exist?

There are certainly people who say they do this.  Some of these people might even be posting to this very thread...

!i!

Quote from: James McMurrayIt's possible to compare apples and oranges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges#Criticism_of_the_idiom), and they actually have a lot more in common than the old saying gives them credit for. :)

The equivalent term in spanish is "comparando salchichon con velocidad", which means "comparing sausages to velocity", which are actually far less comparable things than apples and oranges.

RPGPundit

Quote from: jrientsYes, but the Forgotten Realms isn't a game, it's a setting.  You yourself just said we were comparing Exalted to other games.  And as I said upthread, one of the key differences between Exalted and D&D is that one game puts a huge chunk of setting infodump in front of the chargen.  The clear implication is that you need to read all that crap before making a character.  That the Forgotten Realms is also chock full of setting has little to bear on it, given that we were discussing the difference between D&D and Exalted.  You can play D&D as written without the Forgotten Realms.  I don't think you can make the same claim about Exalted and Creation.

Right, like I said: Exalted is a setting and a game. I was only discussing the setting part from it. You are right that it's much more difficult to divorce the two. Doable, but you'll lose a lot in the process.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe equivalent term in spanish is "comparando salchichon con velocidad", which means "comparing sausages to velocity", which are actually far less comparable things than apples and oranges.

Cool. I'll have to remember that. :)

Quote from: King of Old SchoolYou do grasp this, yes?

Yeah. And, somehow, the point still stands.

Seanchai

Quote from: jrientsI don't think you can make the same claim about Exalted and Creation.

I don't really know that that's strictly true, though. Many starting characters won't need to know much more then about the town they're starting in, and maybe that there's a city within 500 miles. It's very, very simple to be over 1000 miles from the nearest 'canon city', as it were. Any cursory knowledge their character might have is easily summed up by the GM.

I dunno, it's kind of like the D&D game I'm running. Now, the charm set of Exalted is tied into the backstory of the setting, but none of that is relevant information at all. The canon of the game is, imo, heavily divorced from the majority of play unless you're actively running around the world at breakneck speed. Something, I should point out, that isn't as easy as some people make it out to be.

True, but pulling other parts of the setting out is much tougher. For instance, a campaign that wants to use the charms but not the exalt subspecies and castes would take some work. A D&D campaign that doesn't want the nonhuman races is much easier.

That's not really a bad thing though. Exalted wasn't meant to be modular. It does what it does very well, at the expense of not being as good at other things.

Quote from: James McMurrayTrue, but pulling other parts of the setting out is much tougher. For instance, a campaign that wants to use the charms but not the exalt subspecies and castes would take some work. A D&D campaign that doesn't want the nonhuman races is much easier.

That's not really a bad thing though. Exalted wasn't meant to be modular. It does what it does very well, at the expense of not being as good at other things.

Of course, that never seems to stop the RPGnet crowd from insisting it can be used for anything and everything . . .

Just because a couple of dumbasses think something doesn't mean it's true, nor that a lot of people think it's true. That said, you probably could use it for anything and everything, but in a lot of (probably most) cases it would be more trouble than it's worth.

Quote from: J ArcaneOf course, that never seems to stop the RPGnet crowd from insisting it can be used for anything and everything . . .

No kidding. But they are not right.

Oh, and I see what you mean about that one particular game, and how it uses its charms now. It's not so much the canon as the scope, which is pretty particular to Exalted.

I think you could get away with nixing the subspecies just by, essentially, letting people pick whatever favored abilities they want and just letting everyone be Exalts (without the backstory), but changing the premise means going back and editing all the charm trees. An amazing pain in the ass, and not easy.

Quote from: James McMurrayWhat is your judgement on the act of sticking your dick in a baby?

so i herd you liek mudkips?

I have no idea what a mudkip is. The question was asked in order to disprove the silly idea that you have to try something before you can formulate an opinion on it.

Quote from: Thanatos02I don't really know that that's strictly true, though. Many starting characters won't need to know much more then about the town they're starting in, and maybe that there's a city within 500 miles. It's very, very simple to be over 1000 miles from the nearest 'canon city', as it were. Any cursory knowledge their character might have is easily summed up by the GM.

While I agree with your assessment, I think the fact that they put a whole bunch of setting info in front of the chargen section strongly implies that White Wolf wanted to people to swim deeply in Creation before whipping up their PC.

Quote from: jrientsWhile I agree with your assessment, I think the fact that they put a whole bunch of setting info in front of the chargen section strongly implies that White Wolf wanted to people to swim deeply in Creation before whipping up their PC.

I think so. WW layout is always a huge pain in my ass, and it's the same with every book, really. It's not that they want you, specifically, to tie mechanical bits directly to the setting as a whole, but have always considered setting more important then mechanics and rules.

Which makes my life, as a mechancal tinkerer, very difficult indeed.

I think it's partly design philosophy and partly reaction to D&D. WW is looking to grab those players that value fluff over crunch, while D&D is aimed at the opposite side of the spectrum.