My younger brother is a "normal" roleplayer.  That is to say, he goes online to download porn and chat on the Myspace or whatever the fuck the kids are doing these days. He emphatically does NOT go online to look up shit about RPGs.

In other respects, my brother is an extremely dedicated gamer.  He roleplays on a weekly basis, and has been doing so for over 5 years now.

The other day, I asked him what RPGs he actually knew about. He knew about D20 (which to him is D&D, D20 modern, Spycraft, Star Wars D20, and "others"), and in fact D20 is the only system he really wants to play ever (he's far more of a D20 absolutist than I am); and he has neither heard of nor wants to hear about "weird variants" like True20. He doesn't trust them.
He knows about RIFTS and palladiums' various old games, even the ones that have been out of print for years.
He knows about Call of Cthulhu, and about Shadowrun, and about Star Frontiers (?!), and he knows about Warhammer though he doesn't care for it.  He knows about "World of Darkness" though not any particular games in it, much less the difference between first and second edition, and he has no interest in playing it.  For him, WoD is the periphery, alternative stuff on the fringe of gaming.

And that's basically it. Anything else that he might know about (ie. Qin) is only because I directly and recently introduced him to it.

So it strikes me that there really are two hobbies, utterly separate.  On the one hand, there's dudes like my brother, who know of four or five games and play one or two. And then there's the gamers who obsess about the games that only 0.1% of the world's gamers have ever heard of, not to mention the idiots on Forums who want to believe and claim that "Scion" or "spirit of the century" or "Truth and justice" are "basically mainstream".

The truth is that anything outside of those few games my brother mentioned (and one or two others possibly, like maybe GURPS) is not and will never be mainstream.  It is a testament to people's abilities to delude themselves to think anything else.

RPGPundit

QuoteSo it strikes me that there really are two hobbies, utterly separate. On the one hand, there's dudes like my brother, who know of four or five games and play one or two. And then there's the gamers who obsess about the games that only 0.1% of the world's gamers have ever heard of, not to mention the idiots on Forums who want to believe and claim that "Scion" or "spirit of the century" or "Truth and justice" are "basically mainstream".

You lost me at 'utterly separate'.  I've played D&D with members of both camps at the same table.

Most people I game with are like your brother in the regards mentioned here.

Even some of my RPG friends know and care shit about Internet discussions and RPG.net darlings. One of them owned two RPG stores.

Let alone the forge.

Internet RPG-talk is a hobby unto itself.

Quote from: SettembriniInternet RPG-talk is a hobby unto itself.

QFT.

Otherwise, I don't buy the camps bit. I was taught by a bunch of uber-obsessed geeks from the math charter school that my arts magnet school shared a building with. Said obsessive internetting geeks were strictly D20. My "normal" gaming group doesn't care what system "as long as I can play as a beermage." Which is hard for me to GM for, but... doable.

Quote from: jrientsYou lost me at 'utterly separate'.  I've played D&D with members of both camps at the same table.

So how the fuck is it that so many of the members of the second camp can actually believe shit like that "Dogs in the vinyard" has "Popular acclaim"?!

I mean, it strikes me that the type of guys that hang out at rpg.net at least appear by all of their posts to be UTTERLY FUCKING CLUELESS about the reality of what actual gamers (ie. 99.9% of them) actually like or have even heard of.

RPGPundit

Quote from: beejazzMy "normal" gaming group doesn't care what system ".

I think that Pundits point - and one I agree with - is that this is not the normal rpg group or player out there.

 There are D&D (and to a lesser extent) d20 players, and then there's everybody else.

 Yes, there are groups out there that play many games in addition to D&D/d20. But there are ten times as many groups that play just D&D.



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Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, it strikes me that the type of guys that hang out at rpg.net at least appear by all of their posts to be UTTERLY FUCKING CLUELESS about the reality of what actual gamers (ie. 99.9% of them) actually like or have even heard of.

This has been stated many times by others, and I firmly believe it: rpg.net members are not indicative of mainstream gaming -- the outspoken majority seem susceptible to gaming propaganda. That's not to say that other types of gamers are not -- many simply hear that a new cool D&D book is out and buy it because D&D is all the rage (the rage being limited to mainstream books in this case) -- but I would say that the real diehard gamers (mostly old-timers now) go into a FLGS look at the new stuff, and pick something up based on what looks cool to them.

I agree that the Internet RPG scene is a moniority in the wider gamer world, but I think it's the better of the two worlds.  The internet scene is vibrant, very vibrant, and full of options.

I feel sorry for the people who aren't exposed to some of the aweseom games out there.

I was in agreement until the rants and insults started to fly. And it almost went an entire post without them.

My group is mostly like your brother, although we mix in some RPG internet time into our porn schedules. I'm the only one that I know of who has heard of the various uncommon game titles, and even I have never played any of them.

I certainly don't think the groups are utterly seperate and incompatible. RPG tastes, like almost everything in life, run the gamut of variety. And like politics, it's possible to not be a fringe fanatic. I assume most of the people that have been exposed to both sides (and not insulted by one of them) tend to fall closer to the middle than the ends.

Quote from: RPGPunditAnd then there's the gamers who obsess about the games that only 0.1% of the world's gamers have ever heard of, not to mention the idiots on Forums who want to believe and claim that "Scion" or "spirit of the century" or "Truth and justice" are "basically mainstream".

Eh, the largest chain of game stores in this country lists Scion: Hero as one of the recent bestsellers. In fact, the last time I checked their site, it was #1 on the list that's usually dominated by D&D and WoD.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo how the fuck is it that so many of the members of the second camp can actually believe shit like that "Dogs in the vinyard" has "Popular acclaim"?!

Because many people are stupid and/or self-delusional.  But that applies to both camps.

QuoteI mean, it strikes me that the type of guys that hang out at rpg.net at least appear by all of their posts to be UTTERLY FUCKING CLUELESS about the reality of what actual gamers (ie. 99.9% of them) actually like or have even heard of.

That's casting a pretty wide net.  Not that long ago I was the type of guy that hangs out at rpg.net.

Partly the situation at RPGnet the overrepresentation of the uberhobbyist distorts the picture (though one trip to EN World ought to clear that up) and partly at least some folks at RPGnet are trying to carve out a space where D&D isn't The Only Thing That Matters.  I have no objection to creating such a place, so long as everyone can keep persepctive.  Some folks can't.  It's just like the case of the fanboys who think they matter more than the zillion people who saw the Spider-Man movies in the theaters.

Quote from: RPGPunditSo how the fuck is it that so many of the members of the second camp can actually believe shit like that "Dogs in the vinyard" has "Popular acclaim"?!

Because it's what happens to be popular with the people they are familiar with.  It's the same way "polls" work, or did you really think they actually poll ever person in the nation?  They don't.  It's a representative sampling of a small cross section of the community, not necessarily the community as a whole, which, of course, is what you're complaining about; representative samplings of opinions from segments being passed off as representative samplings of opinions of the whole.

Problem is. .

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean, it strikes me that the type of guys that hang out at rpg.net at least appear by all of their posts to be UTTERLY FUCKING CLUELESS about the reality of what actual gamers (ie. 99.9% of them) actually like or have even heard of.

What is an 'actual gamer'?  Is it the person who buys their games at Borders?  Is it the person who goes to a hobby shop to buy their games?  Is it the person that buys their games from an online vendor?*

More to the point what is a "mainstream" RPG?  Is is the commercial product produced en masse by a souless coporate leviathan or is it the product lovinging worked on by a gamer in their spare time?

(*) Or is it the person who actually plays the games?  Because, you know, not everyone that buys the games actually plays them.

hmm, is this news to anyone? Let me relate a little story I have told before but maybe some have not heard it. When I owned my stores it was a case that I dedicated myself and staff to promoting RPGs. That means we introduced a lot of people to gaming and we were able to carve a market out of the local population. The primary game we ran was a new hip gothy game called Vampire. We worked for years building the market. Many a time, I would hear people say, "My first game was Vampire. Tell me about D&D? How many dice do you get in a dice pool?"

The point is, people are "familiar" with the game they get introduced to first, play them most and it is that one they will think is "normal". D&D has the most players, widest market share and most shelf space. Yes, in the general population, it will be considered "normal" and have the largest mind share.

Bill

Quote from: Kester PelagiusMore to the point what is a "mainstream" RPG?  Is is the commercial product produced en masse by a souless coporate leviathan or is it the product lovinging worked on by a gamer in their spare time?

I love when language is so overly bias you can see it clearly. Good on ya, mate, for coming right out and almost answering the question - hell, it's almost rhetorical!

Quote from: Kester PelagiusBecause it's what happens to be popular with the people they are familiar with.  It's the same way "polls" work, or did you really think they actually poll ever person in the nation?  They don't.  It's a representative sampling of a small cross section of the community, not necessarily the community as a whole, which, of course, is what you're complaining about; representative samplings of opinions from segments being passed off as representative samplings of opinions of the whole.

All True. The problem is the sample is skewed - and that always ruins the poll. Ask any politician, or more impotantly their staff, and they can probably tell you exactly how to poll to get the answer you want.

In this case, how do you get a poll that says people are playing all sorts of games other than D&D?  Well, ask people who play all sorts of games othe than D&D - simple!

It's why this argument comes up over and over again - because nobody has good hard sales or marketing numbers, only speculation.  And while it's true that not eveyone who buys a game plays it, it's as close as you're going to get to any understanding of the market.