Be nice if the hyperbole was ratcheted down a bit, for those of you who revel in your Generic Sneering.  This isn't a question of "I don't want to play a character that ever has anything bad happen to it."  Cut that crap, can't we?  It's a matter of "I don't want to play a character that's permanently handicapped from Day One in a way that none of the other characters are, so that I'm automatically their bitch, and they'll be pissed off that I'm not pulling my weight."

I'm not down with that myself, but the way I handle that is that I refuse to play random-gen games.  The way I figure, if you do choose to play in random-gen games, you're accepting that your character might not have stats as good as the other characters, so you've no grounds for whining.

Just as a lark, it'd be interesting to compare and contrast some of the people in that thread who also had plenty to say in that very contentious thread a few years back, where a player was upset that his DM forced him to reroll when he genned a character with stats higher than the DM and the other players liked.

This is something I wrestle with.  I understand that a lot of folks have now gotten their start in D&D after 2000.  I understand that 3d6 in order was really only the norm in OD&D and BD&D, and that point-buy and standard arrays is the end result of a shift that began with the multiple methods of rolling listed in AD&D.

But man, people playing D&D and hating on random chargen just feels weird.  To me, that's just a part of D&D.  If you played GURPS, you allocated points for ability scores and skills.  If you played a Palladium game you chose from a crapload of classes with preset skills.  If you played Traveler you worked out your character's whole pre-game career with a mix of choice and random rolls.  And if you played D&D you randomly rolled your stats.  Even if you used an alternate method, at least you understood what the point of random stats were.

The idea of suiciding a character because of low stats never occurred to us in all the years I've been playing.  There might be an attitude of, "Well, a guy with stats this low is probably going to die early, and I'll make up a new character."  There might be an attitude of, "With stats this low, I've got nothing to lose."  But trying to get the character killed?  That people think like this, or at least that there are more people who think like this, and are still playing D&D instead of finding a game more suited to their tastes...it just makes me feel old.

Quote from: One Horse Town;791420That is both hilarious and sad. It's alright though, they are the anti-next board and we're picking up the posters who are tired of their shit.

a lot of posters at rpg.net are really psyched about 5e. the mods don't seem to be, for private reasons which appear too childish to worry about, and the same half-dozen pedantic idiots pop up in every 5e thread to moan about something semi-related to the topic at hand. but the board overall seems to host plenty of making-the-best-of-5e threads.

Quote from: jeff37923;791392I disagree. I think that the forum is full of people who play RPGs in which nothing bad ever happens to their entitled characters because that wouldn't be "fun".

There's a world of difference between not wanting to play a character who's a complete incompetent and "nothing bad ever happens to your character". That's a bullshit canard overused by the Macho Grognard posse (the sort who apparently derive some sense of masculinity and maturity from the way they play games of make-believe, maybe because they don't have any other meaningful ways to do that).

I don't agree with suiciding characters with crap stats, that's a passive-aggressive out rather than being a grown up and simply saying "I don't want to play this character, let's start again". It's also a big waste of everyone's time introducing a character, only to deliberately kill them off and then go through the rigmarole of integrating your next experiment. Cut the crap and fix this in chargen, we don't move into the game until everyone is happy with the characters they have.

Of course I also think 3d6 in order is shit, generating mostly hapless buffoons, except when someone's been cheating while no one was looking, and the odd instance of someone getting lucky. That one set of rolls is more important than any single other. Miss an attack roll, you get another chance at the next opportunity. Roll shit stats, you're stuck with them until the next character.

As a GM, I have no interest in a group of PCs with a wildly varying set of stats, making it impossible to pitch anything at a level where I won't either have some characters completely outmatched, or others enjoying a cakewalk.

Quote from: Kiero;791435Of course I also think 3d6 in order is shit, generating mostly hapless buffoons, except when someone's been cheating while no one was looking, and the odd instance of someone getting lucky.

Yes, but for WHAT game? In OD&D and B/X, 3D6 in order creates perfectly playable characters. In 3.5 or Pathfinder, 3D6 in order is probably a bad idea. Even in AD&D there's really no difference between an 8 and a 15 STR.

To echo Old Geezer from some other thread, stats in D&D aren't everything, but they're not nothing, either. That said, 3D6 in order using random.org:

STR 13
INT 12
WIS 9
DEX 11
CON 9
CHA 11

In B/X, I could make a viable fighter, cleric, thief, dwarf, elf, halfling, or magic-user. So, yeah, your assertion is wrong.

Quote from: Iosue;791413It's worse than you think, guys.  Mengtzu's original contention was that he would use rolled chargen and suicide characters even if he had the option of point-buy, because point-buy is capped is capped at 15 before racial adjustments.  So it's not even "suicide PC with lousy scores", it's "suicide a PC that got a 14 or 15, repeatedly, until a 16-18 comes up."  In a game where bonuses are capped, and the difference between a 15 and an 18 is all of +2 for a limited time before the characters hit the ability cap.

Sigh.

That's the min/max or munchkin crowd playing, right there.  I see that sort of behavior all the time in MMO land when theorycrafters are trying to find the best combo of gear and stats for the best damage/healing/tanking.

It is one way to play an RPG, but not the only way.  Thank goodness.

Quote from: Brad;791436Yes, but for WHAT game? In OD&D and B/X, 3D6 in order creates perfectly playable characters. In 3.5 or Pathfinder, 3D6 in order is probably a bad idea. Even in AD&D there's really no difference between an 8 and a 15 STR.

To echo Old Geezer from some other thread, stats in D&D aren't everything, but they're not nothing, either. That said, 3D6 in order using random.org:

STR 13
INT 12
WIS 9
DEX 11
CON 9
CHA 11

In B/X, I could make a viable fighter, cleric, thief, dwarf, elf, halfling, or magic-user. So, yeah, your assertion is wrong.

I could see a person playing a fighter who is really a wannabe magic-user, or a magic-user who wanted to avoid getting conscripted into the army.  Hell, there are at least a half dozen ways to play those stats.

Quote from: Kiero;791435There's a world of difference between not wanting to play a character who's a complete incompetent and "nothing bad ever happens to your character". That's a bullshit canard overused by the Macho Grognard posse (the sort who apparently derive some sense of masculinity and maturity from the way they play games of make-believe, maybe because they don't have any other meaningful ways to do that).

I don't agree with suiciding characters with crap stats, that's a passive-aggressive out rather than being a grown up and simply saying "I don't want to play this character, let's start again". It's also a big waste of everyone's time introducing a character, only to deliberately kill them off and then go through the rigmarole of integrating your next experiment. Cut the crap and fix this in chargen, we don't move into the game until everyone is happy with the characters they have.

Of course I also think 3d6 in order is shit, generating mostly hapless buffoons, except when someone's been cheating while no one was looking, and the odd instance of someone getting lucky. That one set of rolls is more important than any single other. Miss an attack roll, you get another chance at the next opportunity. Roll shit stats, you're stuck with them until the next character.

As a GM, I have no interest in a group of PCs with a wildly varying set of stats, making it impossible to pitch anything at a level where I won't either have some characters completely outmatched, or others enjoying a cakewalk.

Looks like I struck a nerve.

So, what kind of system do you use for character creation?

Quote from: Ravenswing;791428Be nice if the hyperbole was ratcheted down a bit, for those of you who revel in your Generic Sneering.

  As far as I can tell, it serves the same purpose as a lot of the SJW advocacy over at TBP--affirmation of one's moral and intellectual superiority, public demonstration of loyalty to the Revolution, and condemnation of the Enemy.

Quote
This isn't a question of "I don't want to play a character that ever has anything bad happen to it."  Cut that crap, can't we?

  Ah, but it's got such a fine pedigree, going back to Gygax and his comment about those who 'might be better off playing Candyland with their younger sister'.

Quote
I'm not down with that myself, but the way I handle that is that I refuse to play random-gen games.  The way I figure, if you do choose to play in random-gen games, you're accepting that your character might not have stats as good as the other characters, so you've no grounds for whining.

  The problem with random generation, IMO, is that it combines 'playing a character who might not be what you expect', which can be a positive or negative, with 'playing a character who's handicapped compared to the rest of the party', which is not universally a negative (some people appear to appreciate the challenge), but is far more difficult to handle in play.

  Possible ways to get the first without the second:
  1. Random array selection, so you can have randomness without power variation.
  2. Simiiarly, the method used in Gamma World '7E', by reports--you get an 18 in your primary stat, a 16 in your secondary, and roll randomly for all the rest.
  3. One idea that's been tossed around for 20 years is to flip the XP gain modifiers in OD&D/BX/BECMI, so that characters with lower prime requisites gain more experience--they have to work harder, so they get more out of an experience if they survive, while characters with higher scores have bonuses but can coast a bit on natural talent.

Quote from: Iosue;791432This is something I wrestle with.  I understand that a lot of folks have now gotten their start in D&D after 2000.  I understand that 3d6 in order was really only the norm in OD&D and BD&D, and that point-buy and standard arrays is the end result of a shift that began with the multiple methods of rolling listed in AD&D.

Started playing in 1980 with Holmes. Our group shifted to "4d6, drop lowest; arrange all 6 rolls to taste" as soon as we heard about that option and never looked back.

The mindset that can't find enjoyment in playing a character with stats that are lower than the rest of the characters in a party is very similar to the mindset that won't choose a race that doesn't provide optimal stat bonuses for a given class. I find both make me a little sad.

For me, characters are more about what they've experienced than their starting stats, so you can't tell how good a character is going to be until it's in the thick of it.

Similarly, players who have already decided what their character is going to be like 10 levels down the road and tolerate no deviation ( see Sacrosanct's TWF player's rot grub suicide in the 5e death thread) also make sad.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;791449Similarly, players who have already decided what their character is going to be like 10 levels down the road and tolerate no deviation ( see Sacrosanct's TWF player's rot grub suicide in the 5e death thread) also make sad.

FWIW, that case wasn't intentional suicide.  He's not a power gamer by any means.  He just doesn't think things through lol.  He was busy worrying about how his life would suck with only one arm and was frozen by inaction too long.  Next thing he knew it was in his chest cavity and too late.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;791452FWIW, that case wasn't intentional suicide.  He's not a power gamer by any means.  He just doesn't think things through lol.  He was busy worrying about how his life would suck with only one arm and was frozen by inaction too long.  Next thing he knew it was in his chest cavity and too late.

Heh. We can pin that one on the character's self doubt instead. I probably projected too much of my experience with a few players from the past into him.

Edit: I should probably clarify that I don't find the tolerate-no-deviation attitude a power gamer thing, but the stats thing(s) I do tend to think of as power-gamey.

It's a rebellion against power inequity.

If you insist on random stats in a game where stats matter and stats can vary a lot... you're being a dick expecting one person to just play el schmucko for the campaign.

(I realize people will now pile on with their stories of real manly gaming where you shut up and deal with what you get. It's a pile of crap)

Now, of course, I have the maturity to say 'this sucks, I'm not playing in this set up' and move on.

But at a less mature/examined time, when nobody had really thought things through, it's the kind of reflexive decisions I'd expect.

(I'll note that I never suicided a character. Generally when games sucked like this the game folded for corollary reasons)

What qualifies as low stats? If it's a bunch of 5-9s then fine, re-roll them. If it's not having any 17s (like the numpty quoted in the OP), then you've got a 'special snowflake' problem and should be playing point-buy (and then go on to complain about that not having as high a range as random - heh).