Quote from: richaje;1091987Lovecraft was a complex and troubled person in life. He was a wonderful writer with an wondrous imagination, a friend to many, and part of a corresponding group of writers (that included REH, CAS, and others) that created the genres of horror and heroic fantasy as we know it. He also wrote things that were racist, and anti-Semitic, and probably misogynistic as well. His fear of the "Other" - of foreigners, Jews, etc. "infecting" the "body of old stock" definitely influenced his writing, and can be seen in things like Shadows Over Innsmouth, the Horror at Red Hook, and the Thing on the Doorstep. But these were also major anxieties of his time, shared by many others - Lovecraft's horror is many of the deep fears of the modern world (and includes the fear that not only is there no benevolent God but that the "gods" are outright malevolent and hate us). Lovecraft's cosmos is a howling abyss and none dare stare too long into it without becoming a monster.

I don't think it is possible to formulate this better than the HPLS has, I am just going to cite them with 100% agreement:

It is true that Lovecraft wrote some offensively racist things and held some very regrettably racist views. It is also true that his opinions changed over the course of his life, and the ugly things he said in his youth were somewhat mellowed by age and experience. But he's been dead a long time, and there's nothing we can do to change him. We can only recognize his flaws, and enjoy those parts of his work that do appeal to us: his fantastical imagination and worlds of ancient mystery. The HPLHS does not subscribe to Lovecraft's racial, political or sociological views, and does not support or promote them in any way.
http://www.hplhs.org/faq.php

We are in full agreement with the HPLHS (who are great folk and have done amazing work). This should hardly be a controversial stance.

As usual what is missed is context and the era in which HPL lived and wrote his works in.

Lovecraft lived betwteen 1890-1937. For our time he was racist. For his time unfortunately his views were much too common. As usual the more social inclined think that 1890-1937 was just another version of 2019. It was not but of course as usual context and the prevalent views of the time are never taken into account. Not to mention making money off off HPL and then insulting the author is both in very poor taste and hypocritical. With all dues respect he is racist for Chaosium just not enough to stop making money off his works. So don't be surprised and offended if other members such as myself call you out on your hypocritical bullshit.

Not to mention that he suffered with what today would be treated as a severe psychological disorder, Xenophobia.

Quote from: richaje;1091990A last comment from me - we don't have ideological purity tests to work with Chaosium. If you create good work that sells (or that we are convinced has sufficient artistic merit that it will sell in the future) and that aesthetically fits with our other lines (all in my subjective opinion), you are welcome in Casa Chaosium. At the end of the day, the only real test is whether your work can make it in the free market in which we operate. But then again, I am a free market capitalist who is a partner in a successful for-profit corporation. Or as America's wisest pre-med/pre-law student once put it:

You should get job at the BBC they also  use the same sort of spineless defence when they are defending their biased content.

Quote from: richaje;1091987Lovecraft was a complex and troubled person in life. He was a wonderful writer with an wondrous imagination, a friend to many, and part of a corresponding group of writers (that included REH, CAS, and others) that created the genres of horror and heroic fantasy as we know it. He also wrote things that were racist, and anti-Semitic, and probably misogynistic as well. His fear of the "Other" - of foreigners, Jews, etc. "infecting" the "body of old stock" definitely influenced his writing, and can be seen in things like Shadows Over Innsmouth, the Horror at Red Hook, and the Thing on the Doorstep. But these were also major anxieties of his time, shared by many others - Lovecraft's horror is many of the deep fears of the modern world (and includes the fear that not only is there no benevolent God but that the "gods" are outright malevolent and hate us). Lovecraft's cosmos is a howling abyss and none dare stare too long into it without becoming a monster.

I don't think it is possible to formulate this better than the HPLS has, I am just going to cite them with 100% agreement:

It is true that Lovecraft wrote some offensively racist things and held some very regrettably racist views. It is also true that his opinions changed over the course of his life, and the ugly things he said in his youth were somewhat mellowed by age and experience. But he's been dead a long time, and there's nothing we can do to change him. We can only recognize his flaws, and enjoy those parts of his work that do appeal to us: his fantastical imagination and worlds of ancient mystery. The HPLHS does not subscribe to Lovecraft's racial, political or sociological views, and does not support or promote them in any way.
http://www.hplhs.org/faq.php

We are in full agreement with the HPLHS (who are great folk and have done amazing work). This should hardly be a controversial stance.

Why don't you just admit you're fine profiting off someone you think is a terrible person?

I don't remember this level of wokeness in earlier Call of Cthulhu-editions, before the glossy colour and the pulp. Back when Call of Cthulhu aspired to be a real horror game I mean? Maybe I just missed the passages? Maybe it all started when World Fantasy award dropped the Lovecraft bust prize?

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/nov/09/world-fantasy-award-drops-hp-lovecraft-as-prize-image

But S. T. Joshi, one of the world's foremost experts on Lovecraft raged against the decision. But of course, his opinion doesn't count.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/nov/11/hp-lovecraft-biographer-rages-against-ditching-of-author-as-fantasy-prize-emblem


And for the Chaosium guy, I have some questions. Why the need to put this in the starter set:

"Racism has been part of the United States almost since the first white man stepped onto her shores to oppress her indigenous peoples"

If you are sincere about this statement, and totally neglect the fact that the native tribes loathed and slaughtered each other way before any white man was present, how can you live with the notion of being oppressor offspring, and probably still living on some stolen lot of land? How can you even enjoy anything in the predominant white USA when you know it's built upon the bones of the conquered and oppressed?

If that line is just pure virtue signaling...who are you signaling for? The native Americans who play Call of Cthulhu? Got any statistics on how many native Americans who play rpgs at all? How do you think white Americans Cthulhu-fans feel when they read that line? Or let me rephrase: How would you LIKE them to feel?

Hey, here's a novel idea. Donate all the Starter kit-money you get from from American white customers to native Americans, as a first step on your path to absolution?

Quote from: Spinachcat;1091810Chaosium staff shat on the original Masks campaign? LOL. What's next, bitching that rolling 2D10s is too patriarchal?

Gagarth, the answer to your question is very simple. Spend your money on other products with other companies.

I've been a CoC GM for decades, having run hundreds of convention games, but I'm done.

All the Lovecraftian investigation you want can be gained through non-Chaosium sources.

Who's putting out good stuff?  The best non-Chaosium CoC stuff is Pelgrane Press, and if Chaosium's politics bother you, you ain't going to Pelgrane.

I won't buy new Chaosium products until they give me access to the products I already bought by restoring my store account.

Quote from: richaje;1091987I don't think it is possible to formulate this better than the HPLS has, I am just going to cite them with 100% agreement:

It is true that Lovecraft wrote some offensively racist things and held some very regrettably racist views. It is also true that his opinions changed over the course of his life, and the ugly things he said in his youth were somewhat mellowed by age and experience. But he's been dead a long time, and there's nothing we can do to change him. We can only recognize his flaws, and enjoy those parts of his work that do appeal to us: his fantastical imagination and worlds of ancient mystery. The HPLHS does not subscribe to Lovecraft's racial, political or sociological views, and does not support or promote them in any way.
http://www.hplhs.org/faq.php

We are in full agreement with the HPLHS (who are great folk and have done amazing work). This should hardly be a controversial stance.

In regards to HPL, this is entirely reasonable. In the 7th edition of the Keeper's book, I didn't find anything that really said otherwise. But can you also pledge that statements by Chaosium writers, staff and the like as well as any published materials will leave it at that?

There seems to be two issues at hand.

- The politicizing of HPL and ostracizing of HPL scholars and fans for enjoying his work and not jumping on that bandwagon. There seems to be a sizable contingent that take the view that if you aren't part of their solution then you must agree with HPLs views, and therefore should be openly shamed.  This is what S.T. Joshi gets so riled about. As a company that ships HPL oriented products there shouldn't be any condoning of that, even passively.

- The inclusion of materials in Lovecraft derived products that apply stereotyped 'present-ist' and racist views of the era (even those applied to WASPs) or even current times that smacks of modern political views. As above, I haven't really seen this in core products, but if adventures and settings books from Chaosium are doing this, then you cannot really say that Chaosium isn't supporting it.

I think a lot of people (here and elsewhere) would like to see Chaosium express the more scholarly view on this, and there is a lot of good will towards Chaosium and CoC. What do you think?

Quote from: Lynn;1092050In regards to HPL, this is entirely reasonable. In the 7th edition of the Keeper's book, I didn't find anything that really said otherwise. But can you also pledge that statements by Chaosium writers, staff and the like as well as any published materials will leave it at that?

   Since Chaosium works heavily with freelancers, I'm not sure it's fair to hold them responsible for what those writers say on their own time and venues.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092052Since Chaosium works heavily with freelancers, I'm not sure it's fair to hold them responsible for what those writers say on their own time and venues.

Perhaps not, but they can certainly ensure that such poison doesn't find its way into the product, and they can explicitly disassociate themselves from those writers, when said writers make statements about the product.

Such that when some dumb fuck makes the statement "You know you've done something right when idiots complain that the thing you've worked on isn't racist enough for them anymore..." the company who hired said dumb fuck can make their own statement, reassuring their customers that they don't feel that way, that they don't consider their customers idiots like their former contractor apparently does, etc. etc.

Or, they can mince around and tacitly agree with the dumb fuck, much like they're doing now.

Quote from: kythri;1092057Perhaps not, but they can certainly ensure that such poison doesn't find its way into the product, and they can explicitly disassociate themselves from those writers, when said writers make statements about the product.

Such that when some dumb fuck makes the statement "You know you've done something right when idiots complain that the thing you've worked on isn't racist enough for them anymore..." the company who hired said dumb fuck can make their own statement, reassuring their customers that they don't feel that way, that they don't consider their customers idiots like their former contractor apparently does, etc. etc.

Or, they can mince around and tacitly agree with the dumb fuck, much like they're doing now.

I have a feeling that the dumb fuck in question was hired to give Call of Cthulhu a touch of WOKE. She's clearly not a horror fan. But she really likes tea and reservoir pens. Probably rainbows too. Her Twitter is full of tweets where she calls people fascists, like Farage for instance. She has no idea what fascism is despite her PhD. She probably views all Brexiters as fascist too, including people I admire like actor John Cleese and Bruce Dickinson from Iron Maiden.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092052Since Chaosium works heavily with freelancers, I'm not sure it's fair to hold them responsible for what those writers say on their own time and venues.

Sure "on their own time and venues" is reasonable. They are not employees. However a freelancer that goes onto public boards and creates a stink that could reflect poorly on Chaosium is a good reason not to hire that freelancer again.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1092052Since Chaosium works heavily with freelancers, I'm not sure it's fair to hold them responsible for what those writers say on their own time and venues.

Don't hold them responsible for comments made by someone about the product they have been contacted work on? Catch a grip  asshole.

Nu-Chaosium's latest crop of pregens for a scenario set in 20's Providence, RI

[ATTACH=CONFIG]3879[/ATTACH]

As I mentioned in another thread, more inclusive in the pile of dead investigators.

Quote from: Gagarth;1106746Chaosium's latest crop of pregens for a scenario set in 20's Providence, RI

Maybe they meant 2020.

Seriously, that's laughably transparent.