Quote from: Mistwell;1116953By the way you will note that all the people in this thread (which is a fair number at this point) who have actually read one or more of the books have said when they read it, it didn't strike them as woke. And then all the people who have never read a fucking word of any of the books are calling them woke. Gee, you think maybe the people who have actual experience with this thing might be more accurate about it than the people who don't have any experience with it?

Whether or not the book series is woke is irrelevant.  The themes in the series are are obviously the reason Comrade Hardy went after the book series in the first place and given her nature it is obvious she will use it as a vehicle for her propaganda.

Quote from: Mistwell;1116953This is just plain garbage. I've read the series, and I am moderate right. The series is not about "promoting multiculturalism". It does not "highlight the difficulties" of minority groups -indeed many people who would be considered "minorities" in America hold positions of power in these books.

No one who is moderate right would ever claim that "minorites" do not have positions of power in America. Are you really claiming there are no minority police chiefs, mayors, judges etc?  That is more like a hard left stance.

Quote from: Gagarth;1117037Whether or not the book series is woke is irrelevant.  The themes in the series are are obviously the reason Comrade Hardy went after the book series in the first place and given her nature it is obvious she will use it as a vehicle for her propaganda.

You are a tedious toerag. We get it. You don't like Chaosium. You don't like Lynne Hardy. Could you please just post a link to a standardised rant rather than going to effort of spewing it forth here every time?  What I see is Two Minutes of Hate and a manifestation of Ingnorance is Strength. i.e. "Obscure book series" - actually the first book is  #25 in Contemporary Fantasy (Books) on Amazon.

QuoteNo one who is moderate right would ever claim that "minorites" do not have positions of power in America. Are you really claiming there are no minority police chiefs, mayors, judges etc?  That is more like a hard left stance.

Try reading it again, Mr Ignorance is Strength. Mistwell doesn't say that. (Mush, is it willfull ignorance or just plain stupidity?)

Try this: Many cars that would be considered small in America are driven in these books. Do you really think that this is a statment that no Americans drive small cars?

Quote from: Gagarth;1117037No one who is moderate right would ever claim that "minorites" do not have positions of power in America. Are you really claiming there are no minority police chiefs, mayors, judges etc?  That is more like a hard left stance.

So the book series would count as moderate right in this regard?

Quote from: Gagarth;1117037Whether or not the book series is woke is irrelevant.  The themes in the series are are obviously the reason Comrade Hardy went after the book series in the first place and given her nature it is obvious she will use it as a vehicle for her propaganda.




No one who is moderate right would ever claim that "minorites" do not have positions of power in America. Are you really claiming there are no minority police chiefs, mayors, judges etc?  That is more like a hard left stance.

I didn't claim minorities do not have positions of power in America. Your reading comprehension is shit. Just plain absolute shit. It should be a guide for others reading your response - if Gargath can't even comprehend a simple sentence and twists it to some weird agenda, wtf should the rest of his opinion be given any credence?

Hey Gargath, if I said there are Victorian style buildings in these books, would that imply to you I think there are no Victorian style buildings in America?

Your response reminds me of this meme:



You're a fucking idiot is what I think. Somehow, my easy point went sailing over your head.

As for "Whether or not the book series is woke is irrelevant," tell that to the pages and pages of responses from people who had not read the book making claims that the books are woke. A whole crapton of people seemed to think it was a relevant enough point for them to make.

You know what you should do? Read these books. They're good and worth reading. You don't even need to tell anyone. You can keep it a secret, like reading the Twilight books.

I don't live in London, but from what I've read, whites are the minority within London itself. So the book series not having a lot of whites in it, is true for the current period. A lot of outsiders don't realize that, however, and still think London must be old timey Victorian forever.

Quote from: trechriron;1117005Only in the online versions...

They may have remove it in the current print versions too. Or at least Zak will be removed from further print runs. There was a statement on the WOTC site.

Quote from: Orphan81;1117065I don't live in London, but from what I've read, whites are the minority within London itself. So the book series not having a lot of whites in it, is true for the current period. A lot of outsiders don't realize that, however, and still think London must be old timey Victorian forever.

Naw there's loads of white people in London, sometimes you literally cannot move for them. It's certainly much more racially diverse than any cities here in Scotland but I never had the culture shock there that I had walking around Pretoria. The books also have loads of white people in authority, mostly in a higher authority than the protagonist but with some notable exceptions. In the end it's a reflection of what the city actually is, very international but still with a white majority.

To be fair it is reported that whites are 45% of the population so that could be seen as a minority but surely that entails other races being a homogeneous mass.

By the way these are the lead characters from the first book.  Note there is only one person of color. There are more characters than this, and some of the secondary ones not shown here are people of color. But this is your main crew for book 1.

Quote from: Garry G;1117070To be fair it is reported that whites are 45% of the population so that could be seen as a minority but surely that entails other races being a homogeneous mass.

Also a matter of what we mean by "white". According to the 2011 Census for London London is 59.8% White, 44.9% White British ( White: English/Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish/British).

Quote from: Mistwell;1117087By the way these are the lead characters from the first book.  Note there is only one person of color. There are more characters than this, and some of the secondary ones not shown here are people of color. But this is your main crew for book 1.

Yeah.  But there is a token fairy.

Fairies are far less than 1% of the population of London so clearly there's an agenda at work there.

Edit: Also Nightingale appears to be being played by Paul McGann.

Quote from: TJS;1117104Yeah.  But there is a token fairy.

Fairies are far less than 1% of the population of London so clearly there's an agenda at work there.

Edit: Also Nightingale appears to be being played by Paul McGann.

Paul McGann may affect the sexiness quotient as he is a big hunk of spunk.

I'm also feeling pretty good about Scots doctors as my father had an emergency today and Mr Choudry, the consultant, was very impressive. Scottish doctors tend to be well respected and welcomed in diverse cities such as London.

Quote from: Mistwell;1117060I didn't claim minorities do not have positions of power in America. Your reading comprehension is shit. Just plain absolute shit. It should be a guide for others reading your response - if Gargath can't even comprehend a simple sentence and twists it to some weird agenda, wtf should the rest of his opinion be given any credence?

Hey Gargath, if I said there are Victorian style buildings in these books, would that imply to you I think there are no Victorian style buildings in America?

Your response reminds me of this meme:



You're a fucking idiot is what I think. Somehow, my easy point went sailing over your head.

As for "Whether or not the book series is woke is irrelevant," tell that to the pages and pages of responses from people who had not read the book making claims that the books are woke. A whole crapton of people seemed to think it was a relevant enough point for them to make.

You know what you should do? Read these books. They're good and worth reading. You don't even need to tell anyone. You can keep it a secret, like reading the Twilight books.

Now you have finished shitting in your nappy go back to reading your Guardian.

Quote from: Gagarth;1117169Now you have finished shitting in your nappy go back to reading your Guardian.

If anyone has done a shit without taking their strides off, it's you. You have stopped engaging in any conversation (not that you did much) or addressing other posters points, and are just reduced to making pointless insults.

I period of silence might be advisable now.

Quote from: Mistwell;1116953Again, reading the series, it's not about diversity or inclusiveness. These are just people in England. The primary "good guy" wizard mentor is an old white guy, by the way. There isn't much in the way of advocacy for minority issues in the books...in fact it's hard to tell what is even considered a "minority" in England since really class is much more of a "minority" issue than race or gender or religion.

Until I actually read the series I will take your word for it. If anything seeing your posts has made me want to read the series which is a good thing.

As I mentioned the problem with producing an rpg based around a book series is that it would need to be something done with the 5E rpg engine or a similar set of rules. With the hope that those who read the series are willing to then buy the rpg in enough numbers. Steve Jackson Games 4E Discoworld did not do well enough in sales as they hoped. I'm not saying never ever make an rpg based around a novel series. The company doing so should be well aware that chances are good it will not sell in enough numbers that they deem profitable.

As for my worry about inclusivity and diversity. I don't mind that it's that when an author suddenly acquires both usually it does the novels more harm then good. Take for example Charles Stross Laudry series of books and warning spoiler some majr ahead. Up until book 6 The Annihilation Score the series was to me at least pretty good. Around 5 the writing became Ok and then with book 6 and the author suddenly becoming massively woke it was a clusterfuck.

Up until book 6 we are shown that Bob Howard not only is in a loving relationship with his wife at least on a personal level they are doing well. Along comes book six and suddenly the focus shifts to Mo his love interests and that is where Stross loses his literary mind.

We get told that Bob is delusional and in denial and that their relationship is on the rocks. Absolutely no indication is given up until the end of book 5 and done in such a clumsy heavy handed way that if feels forced. So suddenly a couple that was in love and in a healthy relationship is the exact opposite and the main character is equally made out to be in denial and delusional. Why so that the author can have his love interest cheat on him because well why not she deserves it because of how hard her job is and how their relationship is in trouble. But hey life and work is hard and it's about female empowerment. Let's forget that not only Bob was possessed by the equivalent of a great old one though a minor one and when was found by the Laundry was screaming so loud and long that his vocal cords were almost destroyed and required almost enough medication to sedate him that would kill a stable of horses. Then have the alien presence removed and spend months in therapy possibly scarred forever. Who care really work and life are hard and unfair for Mo am I right.

She also almost kills Bob at the end of one of the books for thinking he was cheating on her. Why. As an ex-girlfriend who he had sleeping over to keep an eye on came into the kitchen wearing one of Bob sweaters and nothing else. No sex in the bed or any form of cheating really. The love interest was going to kill both the main character and the ex-love interest over jealously and a misunderstanding of the situation. At that point I thought the series was in trouble I never thought Stross in his new found wokeness would kill the series. I have never read the later books so I dont know if fixed the mess he created of the series.

This thread has turned into the weirdest hill to die on, over a game that isn't even out yet and appears to be woke based on pure speculation and a single article from a woke blogger that appears to contradict the impressions of people who've actually read the books the game will be based on.