Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144138Purely for personal amusement I'd taken some ideas originally posted on TBP way way back in the day (the original poster had the handle mmadsen, though I have no idea who or where this poster may be) and run with them to rework HERO into something called the Challenger System, which was designed to try to reproduce the feel of a HERO game while streamlining and simplifying.

Among the radical reworks were:

- Character redesign: Stripped down to 4 Primary Attributes, DEX, STR, INT and PRS, each ranging from 1 to 6 (start at 2, +15 CPs per +1), and a bunch of Derived Attributes: Speed (DEX + INT / 2), Move (DEX + STR / 2), Recovery (STR + PRS / 2), Will (INT + PRS / 2), Endurance ((STR + PRS) x 5), Advantage (SPD + 6), Physical Tolerance (REC + 3), and Mental Tolerance (WILL + 3).  Comeliness became an Edge.

- Training abilities bought at basically four "levels" of broadness: Aptitudes, Skills, Specialties and Familiarities (e.g. the Scientist Aptitude, Computer Programming Skill, Computer Game Design Specialty, FPS Familiarity). Aptitudes were 10 CPs per +1, Skills 2 CPs/+1, Specialties 1 CP/+1, Familiarities a flat 1 CP.  Proficiencies were Skills usable in combat, with Manoeuvres as Specialties or Familiarities.

- Two basic dice mechanics:
1) the Action Roll (or Precision Roll), which took the basic structure of AV (Action Value) + 3d6 vs. DV (Difficulty Value) + 10; your AV equals a Primary Attribute + your Skill Level (generally 1-12) vs. a DV ranging from 0 to 10 or higher.  Equal or beat DV + 10 to succeed at Minor level; every full 2 points improves success by 1 level, from Standard to Major to Critical.
2) the Force Roll; roll a number of d6s equal to the applicable Force score (e.g. STR is Force for unarmed hand-to-hand combat).  Total of roll is Impact, or short-term results; the standard "1 = 0, 2-5 = 1, 6 = 2" distribution determines number of Effect points, i.e. long-term enduring results. In combat, the Impact is stunning, Effect is Wound Points.

- The Advantage (ADV) Attribute is the basis for a character's pool of Combat Action Points, or CAPs; if you had ADV 9, the Warrior Aptitude at 2, and the Proficiency "Fencing" at 4, you have 15 CAPs. These are allocated in each Round to set Initiative, OCV, and DCV.  Initiative equals SPD plus bid CAPs, up to a maximum of 12; actions are counted down from Segment 12 to Segment 1, with attacks or other actions usually costing Initiative 2-6 (superspeed Powers may reduce this cost) and active defenses costing 1.  An attack is OCV + 3d6 vs. DCV + 10.

- Power redesign based around buying all Powers in levels, at a base cost of 5, 10 or 15 CPs per level depending on the Power.  Enhancements and Restrictions are all then applied as basic pluses or minuses; if the final total is positive, you add 20% of base cost per +1, and if negative you reduce Power cost by 20% per -1 -- e.g. a Power with base cost of 10 CPs, with a total of +7 Enhancements and -11 Restrictions, has a final modifier total of -4, or 80% off -- 2 CPs per level.

I wound up grabbing a lot of these idea for my own in-progress generic homebrew, but thought they might have some interest value here.

You've got some great ideas.

• Atts: Not fond of the 4 att schema, or END/REC as a concept. But it is the only real miss.
• Two basic mechanic: Good
• ADV countdown: Still thinking on this. It's almost like you're building in CSLs by default, which is fun.
• OCV + 3d6 vs. DCV + 10: Good
• Power redesign: Genius

You should post some more of your system.

Quote from: Aglondir;1144635You've got some great ideas.

Much obliged, although you can probably see in mmadsen's material (and thank you for digging that up by the way) where much of it came from. Never averse to admitting when I'm standing on another's shoulders.

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• Atts: Not fond of the 4 att schema, or END/REC as a concept. But it is the only real miss.

Open to ideas on a more expanded attribute setup, though what I like about the current one is the matrix it sets up of Physical/Mental and Precision/Force, which ties into the rules mechanics of the same name -- STR damage and PRS Attacks are designed to produce the same rolls as in original HERO.

The END/REC economy, though, is so much a core part of the original game that I think it almost has to be left in, or it's not going to feel enough like HERO in play to attract HERO fans. But I admit that's an impression rather than personal experience.
 

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• ADV countdown: Still thinking on this. It's almost like you're building in CSLs by default, which is fun.

I was! Good catch. (I was also heavily inspired by the Combat Pool die allocation in The Riddle of Steel's combat system, as well as the Sequence/Shot countdown of Feng Shui.)

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• Power redesign: Genius

(blush) Many thanks. I never had any problem with HERO's original system in terms of the actual calculations, but like mmadsen, I found the multiply-then-divide process made customizing pre-designed power packages too time-consuming. Fixed percentages of a base cost are much easier to slot in and out as needed.

QuoteYou should post some more of your system.

I will need some time to format the notes for a post, but I very well may. Glad to see it's of interest.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144647I will need some time to format the notes for a post, but I very well may. Glad to see it's of interest.

Do you allow for untrained skills defaulting to att, or are you using "Everyman skills?"

Quote from: Aglondir;1144955Do you allow for untrained skills defaulting to att, or are you using "Everyman skills?"

Combination of both, as you will see below.

The Challenger System started as purely an exercise in personal system design wankery, designed to see if I could capture the feel of the HERO System as it was played rather than sticking slavishly to specific rule details.  The points I wanted to retain were:

• The OCV vs. DCV roll in combat, and the use of 3d6.  This structure was adapted as the basis for all skill rolls.
• The use of multiple d6 rolls for damage/effect.
• The allocation of Skill Levels in combat; this became the the CAP Pool, the Pool of Combat Action Points.
  
• The END economy, the challenge of balancing expenditures with recovery.
• The power creation system.
• The 12-segment Round organization.

The places I wanted to streamline were:

• The attribute setup and structure.
• The variability in skill definition, cost and use.
• The inconsistency in Power rolls and use.
• The excessive number of dice rolled for high Power levels.
• The counterintuitive mathematics of Power customization.
• The proliferation of in-game acronym jargon, as best as possible. (But not to remove it completely; without the OCV and the DCV how would we assuage our OCD?)

Primary Characteristics

Four (4) Characteristics, ranging from 1 to 6 for ordinary humans (7+ for superhumans): Dexterity (DEX), Strength (STR), Intellect (INT), and Presence (PRS).
Each begins at a score of 2; it costs 15 CPs per +1 to a Primary Characteristic.  One Primary Characteristic can be reduced to 1, for -15 CPs.

(To convert from old HERO:

• DEX: Divide HERO DEX by 4 and round down.
  
• STR: Add HERO STR + CON, divide by 8 and round off.
  
• INT: Divide HERO INT by 4 and round down.
• PRS: Add HERO EGO + PRS, divide by 8 and round off.)

Figured Characteristics

These are calculated from the Primary Characteristics.  Some of them can be boosted from their base calculated scores by spending additional CPs, but cannot be reduced below this for a CP bonus.  (Wherever a maximum limit is specified, it refers to ordinary humans in a realistic campaign.)

Speed (SPD) = (DEX + INT) / 2, round up.  10 CPs per +1, to a maximum of 6.
Move (MOV) = (DEX + STR) / 2, round up.  5 CPs per +1, max 6.
Recovery (REC) = (STR + PRS) / 2, round up. 10 CPs per +1, max 6.
Will (WILL) = (INT + PRS) / 2, round up. 10 CPs per +1, max 6.
Endurance (END) = (STR + PRS) x 5.  1 CP per +1, max 60.
Advantage (ADV) = SPD + 6.  Cannot directly raise with CPs.
Physical Tolerance (PT) = REC + 3.  Cannot directly raise.
Mental Tolerance (MT) = WILL + 3.  Cannot directly raise.

Aptitudes, Skills and Specialties

Aptitudes cost 10 CPs per level, and give +1/Level to extremely broad groups of AVs (Action Values).

• Charisma – the art and science of social manipulation, influence and relating.  (PRS)
• Everyman – the skills and knowledge considered "basic" for that PC's culture, time and place; defined by campaign and character origin.  All characters get 1 level in this for free; there is typically almost never any need to buy more. (INT)
• Helmsman – vehicle operation and stunt manoeuvring. (DEX, INT)
• Jack-of-All-Trades – professional skills. (INT)
• Linguist – languages. (INT)  Linguist scores above 6 give no practical benefit, so 6 is the effective max score regardless of INT, even in Cinematic campaigns.
• Marksman – ranged combat. (DEX)
• Martial Artist – unarmed combat. (DEX, STR)
• Olympian – athletic and physical feats. (DEX, STR)
• Power Control – your fine control and precision in the use of your Powers, and your ability to improvise Power Stunts with them.  This Aptitude can only be bought in campaigns using Powers.  Some GMs may rule that Powers using different Aspects may require separate Power Control Aptitudes, and require this Aptitude to be bought more than once.  (No Limiter!)
• Scientist – scientific skills and knowledges. (INT)
• Scholar – history, literature, arts, humanities, classical languages. (INT)
• Warrior – armed melee combat. (DEX, STR)

In Realistic campaigns, Aptitudes cannot be bought higher than the most relevant Primary Characteristic, called its Limiter.  All Aptitudes list their Limiter(s) above; if two Limiters are listed, the Aptitude cannot be bought higher than the lower Characteristic.  Some Aptitudes (e.g. Scientist) may also be disallowed from use in an Action Roll if the character does not have at least one actual Skill in that area--even the most talented amateurs need to have some basic training for that talent to become apparent.

In Cinematic campaigns, Aptitudes can be bought to as high a rank as desired; they become, in effect, "super-skills" that can be used to design characters extremely quickly, and can be used in Action Rolls even if the character has no actual Skills in that area.

Skills cost 2 CPs per level, and give +1/level to specifically defined areas of action and knowledge.  All Skills fall under one of the general Aptitudes, but you do not need to buy levels in a general Aptitude to buy a Skill.  You can buy Skills to any level you can afford.

Specialties cost 1 CP per level, and give +1/level to extremely specific actions and techniques.  All Specialties must be associated with a specific Skill; you cannot buy a Specialty if you don't buy at least 1 level in its underlying Skill first, and cannot buy a Specialty at a rank higher than its underlying Skill.

Familiarities cost a flat 1 CP, and have a number of different applications: (1) it allows you to perform the most basic functions of a Skill without rolling for it, but only in standard routine situations; and (2) in a crisis situation, you can roll AV -2 + 3d6 vs. DV. You cannot buy a Familiarity for an Aptitude.

Combat Proficiencies:  This is the term for any Skill which can be added to a Combat Action Pool, and which also allows you to spend CPs on buying Manoeuvres within the Combat Proficiency.

Manoeuvres:  Counterpart of Specialties

Languages:  Ranked in three levels of proficiency for three grades of language complexity:

Basic – Slow and simple conversation, frequent mistakes.   Simple: 1 CP   Standard: 2 CPs      Exotic: 3 CPs
Fluent – Accented but competent speech, few mistakes.   Simple: 2 CPs   STandard: 3 CPs   Exotic: 5 CPs
Native – Full command, no mistakes, accent control.      Simple: 3 CPs   Standard: 5 CPs      Exotic: 7 CPs

+1 CP to be literate in the language, if literacy is not included as part of your Everyman Aptitude.  (This is bought by alphabet, not language.)
-1 CP  if the language has a familial relation to one you already speak (French to Italian, or Dutch to German).
Your level in the Linguist Aptitude is subtracted from this cost, down to a minimum of 1 CP per Language.

Traits: A mechanic to allow personality traits to influence character actions. New to the system.

Rated 1 to 3 – 1, Minor (a quirk or habit); 2, Major (a significant element of your personality); 3, Critical (essential to your very being).

To Call On a Trait, spend 1 END and add the Trait's rating to your AV or Force for your next roll.
To Conquer a Trait:
1)   Make a WILL Action Roll vs. a DV equal to Trait x 2; or
2)   Spend (Trait) END (taking Trait as penalty to any rolls involved); or
3)   Spend (Trait x 2) END (taking no penalty).

If you attempt a WILL Action Roll to Conquer a Trait and fail, you may still spend END to conquer the Trait anyway, but must pay an extra 2 END for the failed WILL roll.

Example:  A superhero might have the Major Trait "Drive 2 (Protect The Innocent)".  If fighting to defend an innocent bystander, he can spend 1 END to gain a +2 to any relevant roll's AV or Force.  However, if he must abandon innocents in danger to do something utterly necessary, he must either succeed at a WILL Action roll vs. DV 4, spend 2 END to act at a -2 penalty, or spend 4 END to act at no penalty.  If he can't or won't do any of these he can't leave the innocents behind.

Traits do not cost CPs, but you can only take up to your WILL x 3 in total Trait levels.

More to follow....

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144138- Power redesign based around buying all Powers in levels, at a base cost of 5, 10 or 15 CPs per level depending on the Power.  Enhancements and Restrictions are all then applied as basic pluses or minuses; if the final total is positive, you add 20% of base cost per +1, and if negative you reduce Power cost by 20% per -1 -- e.g. a Power with base cost of 10 CPs, with a total of +7 Enhancements and -11 Restrictions, has a final modifier total of -4, or 80% off -- 2 CPs per level.

This one stood out to me. It seems to me that it wrecks the logic of HERO advantage/disadvantage. In the HERO System, stacking a disadvantage has a lesser effect than on its own. So, for example, taking a +1/2 disad could reduce cost from 30 points to 20 (saving 33%). But stacking another +1/2 disad only reduces the cost from 20 to 15 (saving 25%). The diminishing returns means that coming up with a lot of disads is discouraged.

But in this variant system, a stacked disad has a *greater* effect. The first restriction reduces cost from 30 to 24 (-20%), the second reduces cost from 24 to 18 (-25%), the third reduces cost from 18 to 12 (-33%), and the fourth reduces cost from 12 to 6 (-50%). I would think that strongly encourages either stacking up to the max (presumably -80%) or taking no disads at all.

Quote from: jhkim;1145055But in this variant system, a stacked disad has a *greater* effect. The first restriction reduces cost from 30 to 24 (-20%), the second reduces cost from 24 to 18 (-25%), the third reduces cost from 18 to 12 (-33%), and the fourth reduces cost from 12 to 6 (-50%). I would think that strongly encourages either stacking up to the max (presumably -80%) or taking no disads at all.

No, the modifiers don't progressively accumulate. All enhancement/restriction modifiers are totalled together first before applying to the base cost.  If you bought 4 levels of a Power with a base 10 CP/level cost, this base cost is 40 CPs.  If you then take 5 levels of enhancements and -3 levels of restrictions, you have a total modifier of +2, 40% +16 CPs -- total 56.  If you decide to add one more Restriction level, your total modifier goes down to +1, 20%, or +8 CPs -- total 48.

Alternately, if you apply the same calculations to the Power's base cost per level first, a total +2 modifier (+5 Enhancements, -3 Restrictions) equals +40% of 10, or 4 CPs -- thus each level costs 14 CPs, and a total of 4 levels costs 56 CPs.  The maximum amount of Restrictions after all modifiers is -4, or -80%, which brings the Power's base cost down to 1, 2, or 3 CPs per level.

Quote from: jhkim;1145055But in this variant system, a stacked disad has a *greater* effect. The first restriction reduces cost from 30 to 24 (-20%), the second reduces cost from 24 to 18 (-25%), the third reduces cost from 18 to 12 (-33%), and the fourth reduces cost from 12 to 6 (-50%). I would think that strongly encourages either stacking up to the max (presumably -80%) or taking no disads at all.

This is offset by the fact that unlike Restrictions, Enhancements have no max; I envision quite a number of Enhancements at the +5, +10 or even +15 level. Restrictions, by contrast, never offer more than -1 to -4 at once, and the -4 levels are quite impairing; taking a lot of Restrictions will make a Power very difficult to use.

This essentially reproduces the effect of the multiplier modifiers in the original system, but makes it easier to calculate and allows specific features to be swapped in and out for a flat arithmetic progression in point cost. (For reference, this means that a total of +1 Advantage in the original HERO System equals +5 levels of Enhancements in Challenger; the fact that Limitations in HERO divide the modified cost after Advantages means you can't calculate this same exact correspondence, but in general you can assume every -1/4 of Limitation in HERO will more or less come out to -1 Restriction level in terms of point cost reduction.)