Quote from: Vladar on March 12, 2024, 05:21:25 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 12, 2024, 04:35:01 PM
a centaurlike creature based on a mountain goat would be interesting

So, Bariaurs from Planescape?

Oh, yeah, like those guys.  I was thinking more human in appearance and more goat in capability though.  I played a few sessions of planescape once, but I don't remember them having any special advantage in mobility.

Quote from: Mishihari on March 12, 2024, 04:35:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2024, 01:10:15 PM
Except the Centaur can't climb, so no mountains, can't go into Dungeons/Towers, can't breathe under water, can't go into the tavern...

So your only adventures are in the Savana.

It's limiting, but it's not _that_ limiting.  I've been horseback riding on plains, hills, mountains, jungle, and sand, so those are all options.

I just had an idea while I was thinking about this ... a centaurlike creature based on a mountain goat would be interesting, you could even make it horse sized if you wanted to.  They still wouldn't climb ladders, but mountain goats can get to plenty of place we couldn't without technology.  I've seen them do some pretty insane things.  It would open up some interesting lines of gameplay

Agreed. Also, even without variations, a centaur is much more sure-footed and shorter than a horse and rider. A mule-like centaur would also be more suited to mountainous terrain, and could just be within centaur variation. In D&D, centaurs are portrayed as being around 7 feet tall, which means ducking for some doors but can easily fit in most places a human can go.

I looked up the centaur article from Dragon magazine #105 in November 1985. It introduces centaurs as PCs with these comments:

QuoteDespite certain limitations, the centaur character is a workable and enjoyable alternative to the standard set of humans and demi-humans. If properly handled, the race does not unbalance a campaign. On the contrary, a centaur is a valuable addition to the group he or she joins. The benefits of a centaur's unique characteristics go as much to the party as a whole than the individual. For example, a centaur's size and speed may be used to good effect. One of the more unfortunate situations in AD&D gaming comes when a party must flee from a swift and dangerous foe. Too often devils take the hindmost, the shortest-legged or otherwise slowest members of a group. With a centaur present and cooperative, however, small demi-humans need no longer fear abandonment, and the wounded may live to fight another day. On a centaur's back these bold adventurers can make a strategic withdrawal at maximum speed.

When not carrying fellow adventurers, centaurs can use their great carrying capacity in transporting equipment or treasure. They are hardier than mules for this purpose, and more polite in their refusal to be overburdened. Lastly, centaurs are very good at opening doors and impressing large foes. Even those DMs who feel compelled to follow the official rules closely may at least wish to include centaurs as NPCs.

https://annarchive.com/files/Drmg103.pdf

Quote from: Mishihari on March 12, 2024, 04:35:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 12, 2024, 01:10:15 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on March 12, 2024, 08:27:34 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on March 12, 2024, 08:04:04 AM
Adventure happens where the adventurers can go.  Avoiding cavern adventures for centaurs is no more limiting than avoiding underwater adventures for humans.  Where you run into trouble is when members of the party have differing capability.  Frex, if some salamander-people pcs want to head underwater for part of the adventure when the humans can't breathe there, the party will need to be split, which as everyone knows is Something To Be Avoided.  Just write your adventure so everyone can participate and it will be fine.

That's entirely true.  My point is that the reverse is also true.  If you plan to write adventures of a certain type, then there should be characters that can participate. 

Likewise, if the whole point of the game is that the players come up with whatever oddball things they want to play, then the challenge for the GM is to write adventures for that group--go for it.  I've done that at times.  It's a certain kind of fun.  I've also done the opposite where the setting is what it is, and the players pick characters that fit it.  That's a different kind of fun.  The latter happens to be the kind of fun I'm seeking lately, and also happens to fit what my players generally expect.  So we do that.  There's no moral imperative to cater to the players or not cater to the players.  Though everyone will be a lot happier if any specific or general catering is well understood by the whole group, as well as the boundaries there of. 

Except the Centaur can't climb, so no mountains, can't go into Dungeons/Towers, can't breathe under water, can't go into the tavern...

So your only adventures are in the Savana.

It's limiting, but it's not _that_ limiting.  I've been horseback riding on plains, hills, mountains, jungle, and sand, so those are all options.

I just had an idea while I was thinking about this ... a centaurlike creature based on a mountain goat would be interesting, you could even make it horse sized if you wanted to.  They still wouldn't climb ladders, but mountain goats can get to plenty of place we couldn't without technology.  I've seen them do some pretty insane things.  It would open up some interesting lines of gameplay

Why not stick to a Satyr like creature? Smaller than the centaur, goat like, two legged so stairs and narrow passages aren't an issue.

You would still need special "shoes" so your hooves don't make noice against rocks.

Greetings!

Yes, I think that DM's can make adjustments to accommodate Centaur characters. In wilderness adventures, out on the surface world, Centaurs certainly provide some distinct advantages. Still, though, it remains that a salient challenge and burden if including Centaur characters is they have extreme limitations in successfully navigating into subterranean environments.

And yes, while the stated description depicts Centaurs at being 7-ft. in height, which after all if a 7-ft. tall Conan-like barbarian can make the journey through dungeons, then that would suggest that a Centaur could likewise lessen their burden to the group when moving into subterranean dungeons.

However, I think that there is also the overall mass involved to consider as well. A horse body, with a human trunk from the top. Horses are yes, large. Very large. Try getting a horse through a dungeon hallway that is lets grant, neatly 7-ft. tall, and what? 5, 6 feet wide? Normal-sized Characters often must make significant adjustments in movement and equipment in order to successfully travel through such narrow, subterranean passageways.

I can't get passed the idea that a Centaur would face even more difficulties.

All of that, combined with being unable to really climb stairs, climb ropes, jump through jagged, half-closed archways, slither sideways through even more-narrow dungeon side-passages, ability to move up and down in pits or tubes, climb ropes, tip-toe across wobbly rope bridges, narrow wooden walkways, and on and on.

It is largely the same HUGE obstacles that croppled people in wheelchairs face.

And, I remind you all, I *like* Centaurs, whether Greek flavoured, or some other flavour. I think they are awesome, and can add some really cool elements to a campaign.

I'm just wrestling realistically with the real-world physics challenges that the Centaurs are...*saddled* with.

I also like Satyrs! I think Satyrs are a vert strong animal/mystical race that makes a very good alternative as a long-term member of the adventuring group.

Centaurs, despite my favour for them, I think have real problems being long-term members of an adventuring party that is out doing all the crazy things and adventures that adventurer groups typically get involved with.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The only game I gm'ed that had centaurs as one of the allowed races was DragonLance: Fifth Age. The few times I managed to play the game, nobody picked a centaur. The SAGA System is pretty minimal and leaves a lot for the gm—or narrator, in the case. The description of the race doesn't mention any mobility issues. The closest thing is that centaurs can't wear armor of any kind.

If I were to design my own centaur race for a game, I would make them slightly claustrophobic. But, in the end, their mobility issues wouldn't be much worse than any larger creature. A minotaur—to mention another race available to PCs in DL: 5th Age—can no more snake through cracks in a wall than a centaur due to their inflexible horns and large bulk. Even if a centaur's torso can go flat, inline with his horse body, that horse body is quite bulky, but is it more bulky than an ogre?

In the end, I think a centaur could operate in any parts of a dungeon that any other large creature can operate. And they would even have better balance on uneven ground. But going down a chimney would still be in the purview of the halfling. Now, climbing sheer surfaces would be that extra problem that a minotaur or ogre wouldn't have. I don't see how the centaur arms can be strong enough to lift his whole weight even if he has ropes fixed for him by others.