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Author Topic: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG  (Read 890 times)

Eldritch_Knight

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2020, 03:47:12 AM »
If someone were to release an official 3E SW D6 which fixes the power issues with Jedi I would be in seventh heaven. Until then it's still my goto Star Wars even if I don't allow Jedi as player characters. Or if I do it has to be with the right player.

Someone basically did.
 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.starwarstimeline.net/WestEndGames/The%2520Roleplaying%2520Game%2520Revised%2520Expanded%2520Updated%2520WRP.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwifnaaNnMrsAhUsT98KHfzoADoQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1Oi9iCiTVmcOb0ra7orRe-

Chris24601

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2020, 11:16:59 AM »
If someone were to release an official 3E SW D6 which fixes the power issues with Jedi I would be in seventh heaven. Until then it's still my goto Star Wars even if I don't allow Jedi as player characters. Or if I do it has to be with the right player.

Someone basically did.
 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.starwarstimeline.net/WestEndGames/The%2520Roleplaying%2520Game%2520Revised%2520Expanded%2520Updated%2520WRP.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwifnaaNnMrsAhUsT98KHfzoADoQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw1Oi9iCiTVmcOb0ra7orRe-
Not exactly... WEG Star Wars REU cleaned up some things, but the power disparity between Force-users and non-Force-users is the same as it’s always been in the d6 system.

The fundamental problem is that the game is trying to model two different tiers of dramatic characters using the same system. Luke as the Hero of the Hero’s Journey was written to be on a different tier with a different tier of opponents than his supporting cast.

WEG works fine when everyone is a Jedi (ex. I’ve played in several successful Tales of the Jedi-era campaigns) or everyone is a non-Jedi. But as soon as you have a mixed party things get obviously unbalanced.

Basically I think the OP is asking for something more akin to the SWTOR treatment that gave the non-Force-classes sufficient edges in specific skills and equipment to actually go toe-to-toe with your average Jedi/Sith (not everyone is a Skywalker/Palpatine/Kenobi).

For example, the Bounty Hunter class is an actual Mandalorian, so lightsaber resistant armor, a jet-pack, grapple-line and rockets (AoE being something a lightsaber can’t deflect).

Or the Smuggler, who gets either a portable force-field for instant cover or a stealth generator and a variety of dirty trick devices (including a scattergun and grenades because, again, AoE’s can’t be blocked by a lightsaber).

Basically, in WEG the cost of Force skills is too low relative to their benefits. Frankly, thd proper fix is to price not just the initial 1D, but every pip of improvement  as attributes rather than as skills -or- if you made each Force power a separate skill using control/sense/alter as the attribute.

As it stands right now, you pay either 1 starting attribute die or 10 character points for the first 1D (attribute cost), but then only the number in front of the die CP for each additional pip (skill costs) and can pick a new Force power each time you gain a pip.

This wouldn’t be so bad if each Force power had to be trained as it’s own skill, just like every other skill is. But instead EVERY Force power uses just those three skill ratings for everything so you basically only ever need to improve just these three skills (and get a new power/use for the skill each time you improve it) to completely dominate non-Force-users.

To put some actual numbers down, it costs 10cp for 1D in a Force skill, then 1cp for +1 pip for the next three, then 2 for the next three +1 pips, then 3, 4, etc. So to get a 4D Force skill (which is devastating vs. non-Force characters) takes 28cp starting from nothing (they also get 10 Force powers). By contrast, raising a single normal skill from 3D (a mid-range PC score) to 5D+1 is 26cp (and you need multiple skills for just about anything... blaster+dodge for ranged combat, melee+parry for close combat, starship piliting+gunnery+shields for starship combat).

If instead you required the Force skills to paid for like attributes then getting to 4D would cost 190cp... or enough to raise a single skill from 3D to 11D or FIVE skills to a quite competent 6D.

Similarly, if you made each Force power a separate skill then you’d be able to get comparable results with a single trick to a skill for the same price, but only that one specific trick, not to every power in your ever growing list.

If you want to make it easier to balance Force and non-Force PCs in the same game I recommend one of the two rules above (personally I favor C/S/A costed as attributes with the usual attribute improvement limits and each Force power a separately improved skill). Then if you want a game with full-fledged Jedi (vs. apprentices/neophytes) you give everyone enough CP to buy up their various skills so where the Force-users have various Force powers the non-Force users are extremely competent in non-Force skills (like the 13D Han Solo had in Freighter piloting).

Bren

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Re: D6 Star Wars vs. FFG
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2020, 04:19:49 PM »
Not exactly... WEG Star Wars REU cleaned up some things, but the power disparity between Force-users and non-Force-users is the same as it’s always been in the d6 system.

The fundamental problem is that the game is trying to model two different tiers of dramatic characters using the same system. Luke as the Hero of the Hero’s Journey was written to be on a different tier with a different tier of opponents than his supporting cast.
Two problems actually. You mentioned one. The second problem is that some people want to use the same system to play Jedi Knights and Jedi Masters like we see in the prequel films. The system wasn't designed to do the latter, since those prequels didn't even exist.

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WEG works fine when everyone is a Jedi (ex. I’ve played in several successful Tales of the Jedi-era campaigns) or everyone is a non-Jedi. But as soon as you have a mixed party things get obviously unbalanced.
A starting character doesn't really work well as a skilled Jedi. They end up about as powerful as a youngling in the prequel era. The character would need significant beefing up in their Force abilities to even equal the weakest Padawan we see.

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Basically I think the OP is asking for something more akin to the SWTOR treatment that gave the non-Force-classes sufficient edges in specific skills and equipment to actually go toe-to-toe with your average Jedi/Sith (not everyone is a Skywalker/Palpatine/Kenobi).
I was uncertain whether the OP was concerned with the Jedi eventually get too powerful or the Jedi start out far too weak side of the system.

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As it stands right now, you pay either 1 starting attribute die or 10 character points for the first 1D (attribute cost), but then only the number in front of the die CP for each additional pip (skill costs) and can pick a new Force power each time you gain a pip.
Jedi characters are very weak initially. 3D in Control and Sense (the highest starting level) doesn't even let you reliably and safely use a light saber. Paying one starting attribute die for each of the three Force abilities is a significant offset to Force skills. But if played long enough to grow into their abilities in the Force they do tend to end up more powerful. It's not unlike wizards in OD&D.

You're right though that paying 10 character points* to learn to use the Force is a very low cost, which in the RAW is only balanced out by story or other non-character point offsets and by the time needed to train. From a min-max, power-gamer perspective it would make sense to start out with all your attribute dice and learn the Force abilities during play.

Also note that the 10 character point cost is in the 2R&E version. In the earlier 2E version the cost was 20 not 10 character points. The higher cost didn't eliminate the problem, but it helped.

We house ruled significantly higher costs for gaining Force abilities after character creation. The 20 CP cost was only for learning the last of the three Force abilities. Learning the second to the last ability cost twice that (40 CPs) and if you started play with no Force abilities, then gaining the first one cost 80 CPs in play. So to gain Control 1D, Sense 1D, and Alter 1D during play would cost a total of 140 character points.


It's a nitpick, but the cost to increase a skill from 3D to 11D is 156 character points. 190 CPs gets would get you from 3D to 12D with 1 CP left over. And yes, I created a lookup table to calculate such things. It let me figure out how many CPs different PCs had been awarded and had been used for skill and ability increases.
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