I've noticed over the last 10 years or so, more and more games require lots of little doodads in order to play. I have no idea what started this, but I really don't care for it. It makes the game mechanics interrupt actual play. And cleaning up afterwards more of a chore. I really hope this trend dies soon.
Depends on the game. In Marvel Saga, card play was smooth, elegant, and gave more than just X result. Instead cards had several things one card could be used for--dice lacked such information density.
Plus play was faster than many weird dice tricks I've see (Cthulhutech I am looking at you.)
Cards (1 deck) were easier to clean up after than scattered dice of a half-dozen people.
But SAGA is designed as a card game with no dice. Many newer games (WFRP3, D&D4, etc) require dice, cards, stones, etc.
I don't have a problem with say, using a little stack of chips to track your hit points or something like that, and I sometimes use card draws for dungeon/adventure design, but I think if a set of rules starts needing 'extras' to manage various mechanic it it may not be the game for me.
On the other hand, having a card with your spells or powers or whatever on them might be handy for beginners. I also sometimes like to write up items on cards to give them to players. It's also good for "who had the lantern again?" kind of questions.
Quote from: danbuter;414761I've noticed over the last 10 years or so, more and more games require lots of little doodads in order to play. I have no idea what started this, but I really don't care for it. It makes the game mechanics interrupt actual play. And cleaning up afterwards more of a chore. I really hope this trend dies soon.
I think that people just took a step away from the White-Wolf-ish "RPG is Art" kind of thinking, and want to play more of a "game" these days. People go about it in different ways, and some amongst them like to experiment with elements that add to the game dimension of the play. Like cards, chips, tokens and so on. It's nothing new: we had TORG with the cards that affected actual play not so long ago. It just returned as part of the present trends.
As for these elements interrupting actual play, I'm not so sure about that. They
might, if the game's design sucks, and/or if handled badly at the game table. But they just as well, under better circumstances, might stimulate actual play and take it in exciting directions. Like the cards in the new Gamma World to me (http://gammawhirl.blogspot.com/2010/11/cards-and-their-alternate-uses.html), for instance.
Quote from: danbuter;414765But SAGA is designed as a card game with no dice. Many newer games (WFRP3, D&D4, etc) require dice, cards, stones, etc.
Sometimes it's basically the designers being excited by the novelty of the cards or chips; usually RPGs aren't playtested enough to see the bloom go off the rose on things. In the case of, say, the D&D4 version of gamma world, obviously it's something you can sell. Of course, the difference is arguable vs. selling the "Gamma Player's Handbook 2."
Quote from: danbuter;414765But SAGA is designed as a card game with no dice. Many newer games (WFRP3, D&D4, etc) require dice, cards, stones, etc.
True enough. I didn't realize you were speaking of "one of each" in a game.
Kind of a pain to do that, actually. I agree with the above though--playtesting those things is underdone. I like cards and poker chips for my mecha game (western theme)
but I'm playtesting it, and playtesting it, and playtesting it, first.
I adore a little tactile representation, especially if it replaces bookkeeping on paper, and still more if it's information more than one person needs to facilitate play. Bring it on, I want more games to do this.
Quote from: Benoist;414770I think that people just took a step away from the White-Wolf-ish "RPG is Art" kind of thinking, and want to play more of a "game" these days.
Then again, even White Wolf already attempted to combine their RPGs with a CCG element back in the old days of
Changeling: The Dreaming.
Over the last 25 years or so I've noticed a lot of games use expensive metal miniatures that you actually have to paint. It makes the game mechanics interrupt actual play. And cleaning up afterwards more of a chore. I hope this trend dies soon.
Kidding aside, to me stones and cards and bits are one more thing I don't have to scribble down on a piece of paper.
Quote from: GrimGent;414783Then again, even White Wolf already attempted to combine their RPGs with a CCG element back in the old days of Changeling: The Dreaming.
Absolutely. Good point.
Don't read my "white wolf" too literally though. I was just speaking of tendencies in gaming more than I was pointing the finger at WW specifically.
Quote from: Benoist;414787Don't read my "white wolf" too literally though. I was just speaking of tendencies in gaming more than I was pointing the finger at WW specifically.
To be fair, tying the magic system in the first edition of
CtD to those "Changeling Cantrip Cards" also failed miserably since pretty much everyone hated them, either as a blatant cash grab or just plain impractical.
I'll take cards, counters and whatever over writing notes, flipping through books to look something up, scratching ticks on paper and doing all manner of other things to track information the old way. The bits method, if done right is faster, more informative and keeps the game flowing. 6+ Months of WFRP 3 and never once have we had a moment of 'umm hold on lemme look that up' or 'oh crap I forgot I had this feat' or 'who's turn is it now'.
Yeah, in my experience, Savage Worlds (with cards, dice and tokens, plus maps and minis) runs faster and smoother than just about anything else I've ran or played, except maybe Marvel SAGA.
Quote from: Halfjack;414782I adore a little tactile representation, especially if it replaces bookkeeping on paper, and still more if it's information more than one person needs to facilitate play. Bring it on, I want more games to do this.
Yeah, that. Counters minimize bookkeeping for stuff that happens in session (not such a good choice for keeping track of things that persist after the end of a session), and there is also a visceral feel to getting and giving up tokens.
I think many games use cards that don't use them well. Some do, when they exploit a feature of the cards that dice don't have (Savage Worlds' initiative comes to mind.) But it seems like there have been a flux of small games that use cards and then make rules to engineer around the weaknesses of cards when dice would have been better.
all depends on how the fiddlybits are implemented...:)
These sorts of things have actually been around for a surprisingly long time. And the basic answer to the question "why" has always been the same: as a cheap gimmick to try to get easy attention.
Its notable that I can't really think of any game that earned long-standing success with one of these wonky mechanics. TORG and Castle Falkenstein would be the two closest.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;415188These sorts of things have actually been around for a surprisingly long time. And the basic answer to the question "why" has always been the same: as a cheap gimmick to try to get easy attention.
And what the fuck is up with those funny dice? Just use regular dice so I can steal some from Yahtzee, you attention whores!
Quote from: Halfjack;414782I adore a little tactile representation, especially if it replaces bookkeeping on paper, and still more if it's information more than one person needs to facilitate play. Bring it on, I want more games to do this.
Bold emphasis mine. I don't mind doodads at the table (provided there is enough room) that make the game run faster (reference tools) or reduce the amount of eraser shavings all over the place (which I find sort of repulsive). I'll also add that using doodads can serve as excellent reminder devices and fewer "take backs."
Some of these things have been with us for a long time. The person playing the priest or wizard often printed out copies of their spells on separate pages or kept them in a notebook. Is that a gimmick or a doodad? I guess, in a way. When I play a cleric, I usually keep some obnoxious or obvious doodad handy so that I can hand to a player that I've buffed. When they have a bright yellow plastic koala bear staring up at them from their character sheet, they usually remember their +1 to hit from
Bless. I've been doing stuff like that for years.
A game can take things too far, of course.
Quote from: Halfjack;414782I adore a little tactile representation, especially if it replaces bookkeeping on paper, and still more if it's information more than one person needs to facilitate play. Bring it on, I want more games to do this.
I agree
up to a point.
The newest WFRP is on the other side of that point.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;415201And what the fuck is up with those funny dice? Just use regular dice so I can steal some from Yahtzee, you attention whores!
You mean like with
Classic Traveller, Mongoose Traveller, or
d6 Star Wars?
Quote from: jeff37923;415206You mean like with Classic Traveller, Mongoose Traveller, or d6 Star Wars?
Or GURPS, one of my favorite games.
They're games. Games, in general, have fiddly bits, some more than others. Arguing that they're some gimmicky violation of the purist RPG spirit strikes me as kind of absurd.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;415209Or GURPS, one of my favorite games.
They're games. Games, in general, have fiddly bits, some more than others. Arguing that they're some gimmicky violation of the purist RPG spirit strikes me as kind of absurd.
I can understand that, but when
Deadlands first came out - those fiddly bits hadn't been streamlined into the game so that character creation was a seamless whole that played smoothly, so the fiddly bits got in the way more than helped create a fun gaming experience for me.
I'm more of KISS principle gamer, because Keep It Simple Stupid works best for me to speed up play and get more people involved who have never gamed before.
Quote from: jeff37923;415213I can understand that, but when Deadlands first came out - those fiddly bits hadn't been streamlined into the game so that character creation was a seamless whole that played smoothly, so the fiddly bits got in the way more than helped create a fun gaming experience for me.
Yeah, I'll actually agree about Deadlands. I think the bennies and cards in Savage Worlds are fine, but the poker chips were confusing and kind of unnecessary.
Deadlands is one of those games that I love, but also wish they'd cut out the poker hands and poker chips. To me, they just caused problems, and made keeping track of stuff harder. I guess for others, it worked out fine.
I'm in a Deadlands game and I also wouldn't mind seeing the cards/chips go away. I see no benefit from having them there... what they do add is a sort of meta-gamey aspect I don't appreciate or enjoy... they tinker with my immersion (same goes for fancy dice mechanics).
Strangely... or not so strangely... I like all that sort of gimmicky crap when I'm playing miniature wargames or boardgames... where the action bulk of the action is on the table and not inside my head.
We've always enjoyed the cards/chips stuff, in Deadlands Classic and Reloaded. Heck, one of my players (who played a Huckster, and had to deal with poker hands far more than any of the rest of us) thought that Reloaded (which dramatically reduced the role of the poker hands) was *too* streamlined from Classic.
Quote from: Halfjack;414782I adore a little tactile representation, especially if it replaces bookkeeping on paper, and still more if it's information more than one person needs to facilitate play. Bring it on, I want more games to do this.
QFT!!!
I want games(!) not merely grimoire-like BOOKS i need to haul around!
Money. That's why. Why sell one book for £20 when you can sell a box of useless plastic and cardboard crap for £72? Yeah that's Fantasy Flight Games' philosophy.
I am pleased to say Postmortem doesn't stoop to that level. Hell to run Xpress Shadow World all you need is a core book (£6 PDF £12 Printed) and 5D6. Anything else is optional. Yes I am aware we're making fuck all and Fantasy Flight are making millions but I don't care about the money I care about producing fun games that can actually be played.
Yes its about the money. It's not just that you can sell the offical poker chips or the power cards to makea bit extra it's that the market is small so you need to make the most of the smaller gamer market. It's also because books are easy to pirate but poker ships with pictures of Cthulu on or glossy playing cards are hard to pirate.
Now I think Savage World runs very smooth despite the 'bits' as they save book-keeping. However, Amber runs smoother because not only do I not need the bit I don't need the books either. In my GenCon game I didn't have to open a single book or refer to one bit of the printed material I brought with me. I had to clarify a few rules to the players but they were judgement calls on the rules and I made the call and where necessary annotated those calls with "how the universe works" statements.
So where the bits reduce book-keeping and rules reference that's good where they are fiddly for no reason other than to be fiddly and so they distract from the immersion then that is stupid. Cards to track your spells, good idea, chips or stones to track your hit points, good idea, playing a game of poker to decide if your skill suceeds, bad idea.
Cards have never bothered me when they are used in a game for resolution as long as the system still makes sense and works well. There are two games I've enjoyed running that use cards in their mechanics (Falkenstein and Lace and Steel). On the other hand all the props you need to play a game like Don't Rest Your Head makes me ill. I also really don't care for 'novelty' dice (looking at you Torg) don't we have enough strangely shaped dice for this hobby already? I'm also not wild of the 'fist full of dice' resolution systems (White Wolf, Legend of the Five Rings and especially Faded Suns with its dice pool of d20s, ugh). I admit, that's kind of hypocritical because I give T&T a pass for that, but then that game is part of my early gaming days and I've just always liked it.
What weird dice are in Torg?
I love the crazy fucking moon voodoo dice in Metascape.
Quote from: stu2000;415403What weird dice are in Torg?
I love the crazy fucking moon voodoo dice in Metascape.
The d30. Torg was the first game to build itself around the d30. One of them came in every basic Torg boxset. Some people get their kicks collecting dice. I've never been one of them. If that's your thing, go on with your bad self.
I have several Torg boxes, and they all came with a d20. Now--I'm not calling you out or saying you're wrong or anything of the kind. But if there are Torg boxes out there with d30s in them, I'd like to find one.
And yeah--I do like weird dice. But I don't don't like overly-gimmicky dice systems in games. Ought to be a reason for weird dice if they're going to use them.
Yeah, the Torg system was built around the d20 as far as I know too. And I played me a lot of Torg.
Still love the drama deck.
Quote from: stu2000;415413I have several Torg boxes, and they all came with a d20. Now--I'm not calling you out or saying you're wrong or anything of the kind. But if there are Torg boxes out there with d30s in them, I'd like to find one.
And yeah--I do like weird dice. But I don't don't like overly-gimmicky dice systems in games. Ought to be a reason for weird dice if they're going to use them.
Quote from: Insufficient Metal;415444Yeah, the Torg system was built around the d20 as far as I know too. And I played me a lot of Torg.
Still love the drama deck.
yes, d.20. all the way.
I had one game for all of about 3 days that had some wanky d.15 or some such thing that kinda looked like a d.10. Some LAME Sci-Fi game,Spaceguild or something?
The game "Time & Time again" used a d.20 as a d.200! (W/d.10 as 1's)
man do I LOVE that "multi quote" function...thanks again BSJ,wherever you may be...:)
Quote from: stu2000;415413I have several Torg boxes, and they all came with a d20. Now--I'm not calling you out or saying you're wrong or anything of the kind. But if there are Torg boxes out there with d30s in them, I'd like to find one.
And yeah--I do like weird dice. But I don't don't like overly-gimmicky dice systems in games. Ought to be a reason for weird dice if they're going to use them.
Well crap, apparently I really am senile. All I can plead is that I owned it a long time ago and for some reason remembered that dice track with +/- modifiers along the bottom of the character sheet was d30 based. Carry on, nothing to see here.
As everyone else is picking on Savage Worlds I thought I'd add my thoughts.
I like the use of cards for initiative. Yes it would be simpler to have a score + die (nWoD) or just a fixed score (Xpress) but the cards are a lot fun particularly when somebody draws a joker.
Deal with the Devil in Deadlands makes perfect sense. It's quite literally a gamble with your soul at stake. Fits the theme perfectly.
Veteran of the Weird West happens at character creation so it doesn't disrupt game play. Same with Terminal Ilness in Necessary Evil which is drawn before the game starts.
I can't stand the dueling rules though. They take the piss.
Wildland's initiative cards are great but don't scale well. There's no redeeming value if the group only has one action per turn, but with too many actions per turns you run out of cards and draw the special cards every freeking time.
Generaly though I'm interested in how objects in play can perform computations that are more complex than the thought that goes into manipulating them.
I love me some doodads!
I love how Savage Worlds adds minis, dice, cards, chips to the game. Adds a great tactile element.
At the last con I went to, I had a chance to talk up the players & GMs of WFRP 3e. Everyone I've met has enjoyed the game. Some weren't sure if they'd run a home campaign, but those who are running full campaigns are having a blast.
I wouldn't want ALL my RPGing to be RPG hybrids, but overall its a good trend for the hobby.
I'm with the apparent trend on this in that I don't mind the extras at all in the games I have and have played. Savage Worlds/Deadlands is fun with the cards, I love how the card mechanics work in Freemarket, and I don't even really mind the cards and the bling for tracking conditions in D&D 4e. Heck I used to use spell cards for 2e and 3e D&D as well, and agree that they are an aid that makes accessing the info much faster and easier. What I don't like the idea of is a RPG that requires cards that end up being trickled out in booster packs and shit. If I wanted to own and play a CCG I would. That's just me though, I suppose some folks might not even mind that. Note, I am not specifically referring to the new GW, haven't even had occasion to look at the game yet. In fact, I'm not sure I could name a game that does that, just know the idea doesn't appeal to me.