I play 1E, which to me gives a lot of clarity, or at least narrows down the questions I'm asking.

The tenets of good are "human" rights, which are enumerated as life, relative freedom, and the prospect of happiness. Evil is not merely the opposite of these things. For evil, purpose is determinant. Evil is willing to trod on human rights to further its ends. Its ends itself might be noble, but still evil. Neutrals are either those consciously balancing good with evil, or else those so indifferent to good or evil, having neither respect for the human rights, nor some great purpose that urges then to tread on those rights.

The right to property is not one on the list. Although indirectly, if you steal someone's excess, you might hamper their prospect of happiness. And if you continue to steal forcing them to work more, you might make them relatively less free. And if you continue to steal to the point where you steal the very food off their plate, you might be robbing them of life itself. So taken to an extreme, stealing will be considered evil according to the parameters laid out by the game. But not taken to such an extreme? That would be indifferent.

That's what follows from the alignment guidance. So here is where the wiggle room is.

1) In the fantasy world "human" may be expanded to a number of creatures. Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, etc, for sure. Where exactly the line is drawn between human and monster is up to the DM. For my own game, I draw the line between PC and non-PC races. Half-Orcs are considered "human"; full orcs are not.
2) Remember, evil has purpose. Evil may even have an ethical code. Under the ethical code of evil, even murder may be justifiable within that code. You could thus easily have examples of an "ethical thief" but it wouldn't make the thief of Good alignment.
3) The rules don't apply to the divine. Consider. If you take something from someone else, is that stealing? Well, not if the thing you are taking was rightfully yours. Same thing with vandalism. If the thing you're defacing or destroying belongs to you, that's not vandalism. Well, consider a world that is created by God or gods. As creators of all, they are also owners of all. They may take or destroy what is theirs without that act being subject to the normal judgments or categories of alignment.
Ex: A great flood that destroys the lazy, the sinful, and the squanderers of wealth, sparing only those who have worked to gain excess and then uses that excess to safeguard against calamity, may be said to serve a higher purpose--if a mortal were to do this, it would be an evil act as it violates the human rights, but a god has only destroyed what was already rightfully his. (Note that when there are many Gods, there could be cases where a god stakes claim on a mortal hero, rendering them untouchable by other gods who must act indirectly to take vengeance on a hero who has offended them.)

Where would an IRS auditor fit into these paradigms. An auditor is taking someone elses hard earned gains which is thievery by most definitions.

Lawful because that is the law and gov needs some money to run (how much and how spent are different issues).
Good, Neutral, Evil I guess would depend upon methods and the government?

Not all thieves pick pockets.

p.s. I'm surprised nobody brought up Bilbo as an ethical thief. Stealing back was mentioned, but Bilbo is a great example of exactly that.

WTF is going on in this thread?

Can there be an Ethical Fighter? Let's parse what a "Fighter" means. Then, after 200-pages of debate and sifting through the ashes of that dead horse, long beaten and charred to dust, we can parse what a "Fighter" actually does (Kill things with objects), then have a 200-page thread of discussing alignment and moral/ethical justifications of each alignment type blah blah blah.

The answer is simple: Yes, you can have ethics and be a thief. The real question is how ethical are you relative to WHAT? Are you talking about the Class, or the act of thievery itself?

The issue is what kind of moral framework you're leveraging it against and what degree are the moral and ethical hazards presented by your actions.

Stealing is stealing. But there is a difference between stealing from the wealthy evil Baron to feed your family, and stealing indiscriminately for fun and pleasure.

Thieves are less ethical than most. But you can definitely scale them within their own context of behaviors.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 25, 2022, 11:03:53 AM

p.s. I'm surprised nobody brought up Bilbo as an ethical thief. Stealing back was mentioned, but Bilbo is a great example of exactly that.

Mainly not mentioned because he is not a thief. He's just some poor joe who gets press ganged into this and called a thief when he is anything but.

The only reason he takes anything from the hoard is because they literally force the poor guy to go in alone.

On top of that what he was doing was recovery of stolen goods. If anything hes more like a constable. A constable forced to recover stolen goods.

Bilbo is about as far removed from being a thief as one can get. Unless your definition of thief is "everything on Earth"

Quote from: tenbones on January 25, 2022, 12:21:54 PM
WTF is going on in this thread?

Can there be an Ethical Fighter?

Of course there can!

PACIFIST CRUSH! and of course...

  Yay! Slayers! Good times, good times. 

Also makes me think of Buddhist and Jaina empires. Right thinking and Right action and minimal harm for all living things -- to the face!  How dare you eat root vegetables! Gaining material attachment and killing an organism to satiate your hunger! Boo!

The fun part is to avoid all of this we leave the responsibility for universe alignment and the ethos for fictional cultures to the GM. That way they can answer their players direct and we don't have to iron out all of imagination to one "correct" group think.  And thus with context localized to individual campaigns the many flowers of gaming tables may bloom.

Quote from: Omega on January 25, 2022, 12:23:37 PM
Bilbo is about as far removed from being a thief as one can get. Unless your definition of thief is "everything on Earth"

Bilbo was picked primarily because of his stealth and is hired as a burglar by the Dwarves. He tries to steal food from the Trolls. Steals keys from the Wood Elf jailers. Scouts around before the party enters Lonely Mountain. And yes, he recovers stolen goods but then gives the Big Sphere to the men of lakedown instead of the party. Seems pretty Thief like to me.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 25, 2022, 11:03:53 AM
Where would an IRS auditor fit into these paradigms. An auditor is taking someone elses hard earned gains which is thievery by most definitions.

Over the entire course of human history, I can't think of a single profession more universally reviled than the tax collector. They needed armed guards, because given the slightest chance, the locals would slit their throats and toss them in a ditch.

Which should answer your question about whether most people would consider it theft.

The exception of course being the pawns of the modern spendthrift regime. They love taxes, especially the ones you have to pay.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 25, 2022, 11:03:53 AM
Where would an IRS auditor fit into these paradigms. An auditor is taking someone elses hard earned gains which is thievery by most definitions.

Lawful because that is the law and gov needs some money to run (how much and how spent are different issues).
Good, Neutral, Evil I guess would depend upon methods and the government?

Not all thieves pick pockets.

p.s. I'm surprised nobody brought up Bilbo as an ethical thief. Stealing back was mentioned, but Bilbo is a great example of exactly that.

   An IRS Auditor is lawful evil.  They LOVE rules and rules and rules, and they also revel in using their power and position to bury a poor sap to did not dot an I.  Pretty much the definition of Lawful Evil (petty tyrants). 

The only thieves I've known, all of them, about say 6 in 40 years, were kind of "unethical" in that while they might seem quite moral the rest of the time, they could always rationalize a casus beli for righteous thefts as easily as your wife can manufacture an excuse to argue over nothing. I've got one cousin that has probably stolen a million dollars worth of tools and crap from various big box outfits to trade for pills or pill money, ask about it and he will tell you how he is robin hood, sticking it to the man.

He will also catch you gone and steal your vacuum cleaner (that was a wedding gift you shit head) or even the damned copper out of the walls. If ever caught, he will make up something about how he is correct and right in what he was doing; he is playing defense and you are the aggressor, he stole your dogs pups because you are cruel to animals see, he stole your lawn mower to encourage you to get a new one that's less loud, he did not blow your change at the gas station he got robbed coming out of the bathroom and sorry he also forgot the cigs you sent him after in the first place.

This trait of rationalizing justification seemed to be common across all but one of the thieves I've known, only one was of the mindset that "stealing is wrong, i am stealing, i am in the wrong, but i'm doing it anyway and i don't care". The rest were just on various layers of self delusion. "It's ok to rob the dope dealer, it's ok to rob corporations, it's ok to rob drug addicts, it's not rape if she got her pill" etc.

Somehow and I caution, this topic tends to meander into the weeds surrounding the concept of ownership itself, at least, these types I speak of like to turn the conversation toward any accusers having to defend the concept of ownership itself in each given case rather than simply focusing on the factual act of theft.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 25, 2022, 02:11:10 PM
Bilbo was picked primarily because of his stealth and is hired as a burglar by the Dwarves. He tries to steal food from the Trolls. Steals keys from the Wood Elf jailers. Scouts around before the party enters Lonely Mountain. And yes, he recovers stolen goods but then gives the Big Sphere to the men of lakedown instead of the party. Seems pretty Thief like to me.

Except not one bit of that makes him a thief. Moreso because half of it was under duress. Gandalf pressganged Bilbo into coming along. The dwarves bullied him into resking his life to steal stuff and etc.

Try again please.

Quote from: Omega on January 26, 2022, 01:51:34 AM
Except not one bit of that makes him a thief. Moreso because half of it was under duress. Gandalf pressganged Bilbo into coming along. The dwarves bullied him into resking his life to steal stuff and etc.

Try again please.

I don't think I need to try again. I think your arguments are unconvincing. Taking on the role of a thief in a party makes him a first level thief, he does not need to make a lifetime commitment to the profession.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 26, 2022, 08:30:43 AM

Quote from: Omega on January 26, 2022, 01:51:34 AM
Except not one bit of that makes him a thief. Moreso because half of it was under duress. Gandalf pressganged Bilbo into coming along. The dwarves bullied him into resking his life to steal stuff and etc.

Try again please.

I don't think I need to try again. I think your arguments are unconvincing. Taking on the role of a thief in a party makes him a first level thief, he does not need to make a lifetime commitment to the profession.

Of course because your own arguments fall flat on scrutiny.

Keep struggling.

I was going to bring up the basic "party contract" type of ethics.

Things like "Don't steal from the other party members" and "When combat starts, you have to fight on the party's side."

Looks like it's a little late, though.

Clearly he was a ranger cleric.