Quote from: jeff37923 on January 20, 2022, 04:46:28 PM
So what would be the difference between an ethical thief and a moral thief?

There isnt alot of difference in the action.

But there might be some difference in the mental outlook of the individual in the how and why.
Most seem to consider morals to be personal creed. While ethics tend to be viewed as social?
So I'd guess the moral thief will steal from robbers to give to the poor because its the right thing to do. While the ethical thief will steal from them because they broke the law and this is furthering justice?

Probably totally YMMV depending on the individual much like how no two players can agree on what D&D alignment means or even that D&D HP means.

This probably comes into play too when you have a morals vs ethics conundrum in dealing with those pesky orc babies. Is killing them wrong or right because they do or do not have a chance to be whatever? Or is killing them or not wrong because they are babies and killing them is not what people should do. (Or is it?)

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 20, 2022, 09:03:57 AM
I could think of Lawful Good Thief being a corporate raider, moneychanger, or creative accountant. By Legal it is Lawful, by Good it would be something supportive of a humanistic ethos, such as short selling against harmful speculator bubbles, currency manipulation during a time of war against a rampaging war machine enemy, or pro bono clever tax write-offs for struggling charities.  Or you could be a locksmith.

I dunno, what were we talking about anyway? 

I played a dwarven thief who was a "treasure reclamation specialist" reclaiming all the wealth monster had stole from the dwarfs and others. Knowing how to pick locks and disarm traps was the most important thing.

I once ran a rogue/wizard who was a 'freelance security specialist', similar to your dwarf, Nephil. A little bit of treasure reclamation, a little bit of bounty hunter, and a little bit of 'here's how to keep people like me out of your stuff'.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 21, 2022, 08:01:58 AM
I once ran a rogue/wizard who was a 'freelance security specialist', similar to your dwarf, Nephil. A little bit of treasure reclamation, a little bit of bounty hunter, and a little bit of 'here's how to keep people like me out of your stuff'.

Awesome! So, a Lawful Good "Thief" is perfectly possible, and even easy to do.

Quote from: Nephil on January 21, 2022, 05:21:57 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 21, 2022, 08:01:58 AM
I once ran a rogue/wizard who was a 'freelance security specialist', similar to your dwarf, Nephil. A little bit of treasure reclamation, a little bit of bounty hunter, and a little bit of 'here's how to keep people like me out of your stuff'.

Awesome! So, a Lawful Good "Thief" is perfectly possible, and even easy to do.

So are assassins, necromancers, etc.

Quote from: Omega on January 18, 2022, 05:33:46 PM
The ethical thief goes way back in legends and deeds in various forms.

People who rob the wealthy and donate to the needy. Sometimes bordering more on resistance movements.

People stealing from those that robbed them. This one goes quite far back. And pops up in more modern tales too.

People stealing from other criminals. The Green Hornet for example pretended to be this, the Shroud does it too. These tales are fairly old too of the hero joining the enemy to ruin them from within.

The vigilante who pockets anything of value off those they defeat or slay so as to afford survive, pay the bills, and to keep fighting crime or injustice.

And so on. Lots of examples out there ranging the full spectrum of altruistic to anything but.

I don't know what the OP was on about - since the twit deleted his posts - but I thought this was the start of a discussion that had potential.

Quote from: Omega on January 20, 2022, 04:56:45 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on January 20, 2022, 04:46:28 PM
So what would be the difference between an ethical thief and a moral thief?

There isnt alot of difference in the action.

But there might be some difference in the mental outlook of the individual in the how and why.
Most seem to consider morals to be personal creed. While ethics tend to be viewed as social?

While sometimes synonyms, I think of morals as related to the mores of the society. So one who obeys those mores is moral vis a vis that society. Ethics I see as something that aspires to be a universal prescription or rule.

"The Flinx was an ethical thief in that he stole only from the crooked."

--The opening sentence of The Tar-Aiym Krang by Alan Dean Foster

He was the product of eugenic gene editing by the Meliorare Society though.

Quote from: jeff37923 on January 20, 2022, 04:46:28 PM
So what would be the difference between an ethical thief and a moral thief?

In my way too many years of theological classes, the prime separation between moral and ethics is: moral is principle (ideal), ethics is applied.

So if we are defining thief as one who steals, and the principle of theft/stealing is a moral wrong (along with a legal wrong), then there never can be a moral thief. Morals are absolutist ideals. They are an abstract guidance, like cardinal directions, for behavior a complicated real world.

But just as cardinal directions, like "True North," does not exist beyond its contextual reference (such as deep space vs. planet Earth in the Sol system), neither does principles/ideals. Ethics draws from context to actualize a moral, sometimes (oftentimes) in ways contradictory to competing morals. And given societies have more than one moral, often quite a lot of them, morals come into conflict and have to be given priorities. That prioritization to apply a moral system is ethics.

So it's like competing code in software, it has to check current context, then check any conditional statements advising prioritization of responses in said context.

So an ethical thief is applied nonconsentual redistribution for a cause greater than its harm.  Hope that helps!

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 22, 2022, 02:14:57 PMEthics draws from context to actualize a moral, sometimes (oftentimes) in ways contradictory to competing morals. And given societies have more than one moral, often quite a lot of them, morals come into conflict and have to be given priorities. That prioritization to apply a moral system is ethics.

I'm changing my answer to this.

Quote from: Bren on January 23, 2022, 02:01:38 AM

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 22, 2022, 02:14:57 PMEthics draws from context to actualize a moral, sometimes (oftentimes) in ways contradictory to competing morals. And given societies have more than one moral, often quite a lot of them, morals come into conflict and have to be given priorities. That prioritization to apply a moral system is ethics.

I'm changing my answer to this.

Ha ha ha!  And it didn't have to come from almost two decades of religious classes!  Hard times, hard times.

Privateers are government-sanctioned pirates, so they are lawful, I guess.

The character I thought of was Indiana Jones. He does not shrink from stealing (at least, in "The Last Crusade"), but his intention is to deliver artifacts to the museum, rather than keep them for himself.

Quote from: cavalier973 on January 23, 2022, 12:28:41 PM
Privateers are government-sanctioned pirates, so they are lawful, I guess.

The character I thought of was Indiana Jones. He does not shrink from stealing (at least, in "The Last Crusade"), but his intention is to deliver artifacts to the museum, rather than keep them for himself.

Well that is the thing. When is a thief a thief and when is taking from the enemy thievery and not just liberating supplies. Supplies that may have been stolen and likely are now being used to further wars?

Sure to the enemy its thievery and totally unethical and morally wrong to boot most likely. But to the resistance its the exact opposite and not getting this stuff out of there hands is likely ethically and morally wrong.

What if they instead just torch the stuff instead of taking it from them? Iare the thieves? Vandals? Can there be an ethical vandal??? 

'The thief who steals three kopeks is hanged; the thief that steals thirty kopeks is praised.'

Sometimes, it's all a question of scale.

Ethical vandal (as in destruction of property)? Well many religious movements were (or are) in fact iconoclastic (destroys imagery), or at least put heavy injunction against forbidden things (oppositional faiths, e.g. satanism). So the answer on Earth is an emphatic yes. In fact it is often a duty of the new order replacing the old order, to prevent the past opposition from returning as a threat.

(Further, the defacing and destruction of living things, including people, can be in that argument against lawful or good fighters. But for defense, survival, gold, and glory has already been established as allowed justifications for those who fight in manifold variations. Yet complications always ensue, hence codes of conduct, internal military jurisprudence, etc. Certain morals take a backseat to necessity, but the nod to ethical application -- and ethical internal review -- is frequently present.)

It may not be in your fantasy world as you get to define the moral compasses and cultural expressions in your table's fictional world, naturally.