SPECIAL NOTICE
Malicious code was found on the site, which has been removed, but would have been able to access files and the database, revealing email addresses, posts, and encoded passwords (which would need to be decoded). However, there is no direct evidence that any such activity occurred. REGARDLESS, BE SURE TO CHANGE YOUR PASSWORDS. And as is good practice, remember to never use the same password on more than one site. While performing housekeeping, we also decided to upgrade the forums.
This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.

Can There be an Ethical Thief?

Started by DeadVerySoon, January 18, 2022, 04:04:26 PM

Previous topic - Next topic
Print
Go Down Pages1 2 3 ... 6
User actions

DeadVerySoon

January 18, 2022, 04:04:26 PM Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 05:11:04 PM by RPGPundit
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

jeff37923

#1
January 18, 2022, 04:31:59 PM
Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 04:04:26 PM
I am neither advocating nor condemning anything.  This is NOT a political post.

An obscure board game, Museum Caper Clue, posits a group of detectives inside a museum, trying to prevent one player, the thief, from absconding with the goods.  The thief player must honestly record his movements on a paper pad map of the game board.  A paradox of sorts.

Can there be any sort of unharmful theft?  If a person steals a physical book, that is a tangible loss all the way down the supply chain to the original author.  There is one literal fewer physical book available, less profits.

If a person steals a digital copy of the book, is it the same thing.  I say yes, but ONLY if that thief could have afforded  to purchase a legitimate digital copy.   If not, no money has actually been lost, the data is still there for those who can afford it to buy.

Then, it comes down to, define "afford" and define "broke".
If a book goes out of print, if the price of copies skyrockets on the collector market, does that really fulfill the vision of the author?
If someone creates a PDF and shares it with folks who would never otherwise get to buy it, what do you think of that?

The ethical thief is the entire theme of the Netflix show Carmen Sandiego.
"Meh."

DeadVerySoon

#2
January 18, 2022, 04:39:50 PM Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 10:19:53 PM by DeadVerySoon

Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

GnomeWorks

#3
January 18, 2022, 04:51:21 PM
Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 04:04:26 PMIf a person steals a digital copy of the book, is it the same thing.  I say yes, but ONLY if that thief could have afforded  to purchase a legitimate digital copy.   If not, no money has actually been lost, the data is still there for those who can afford it to buy.

This assumes that the thief would have spent money at all in the first place. Ability to pay does not imply willingness to do so.

Obviously that problem only applies to digital goods. Theft of physical items is still theft regardless of whether or not the thief could afford the goods.
Mechanics should reflect flavor. Always.
Running: Chrono Break: Dragon Heist + Curse of the Crimson Throne AP + Egg of the Phoenix (D&D 5e).
Planning: Rappan Athuk (D&D 5e).

DeadVerySoon

#4
January 18, 2022, 04:59:44 PM Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 10:20:13 PM by DeadVerySoon
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

FingerRod

#5
January 18, 2022, 05:06:41 PM
10 - 1 this turns into a piracy debate at some point...

But can there be an ethical thief? No. By definition there cannot. Value is irrelevant. Medium is irrelevant.

jeff37923

#6
January 18, 2022, 05:09:40 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on January 18, 2022, 05:06:41 PM
10 - 1 this turns into a piracy debate at some point...

Oh, you know that it will!
"Meh."

DeadVerySoon

#7
January 18, 2022, 05:15:52 PM Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 10:21:07 PM by DeadVerySoon
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

Omega

#8
January 18, 2022, 05:33:46 PM
The ethical thief goes way back in legends and deeds in various forms.

People who rob the wealthy and donate to the needy. Sometimes bordering more on resistance movements.

People stealing from those that robbed them. This one goes quite far back. And pops up in more modern tales too.

People stealing from other criminals. The Green Hornet for example pretended to be this, the Shroud does it too. These tales are fairly old too of the hero joining the enemy to ruin them from within.

The vigilante who pockets anything of value off those they defeat or slay so as to afford survive, pay the bills, and to keep fighting crime or injustice.

And so on. Lots of examples out there ranging the full spectrum of altruistic to anything but.

Jam The MF

#9
January 18, 2022, 05:36:27 PM
An ethical thief / reformed thief; would steal and return, that which should have never been stolen in the first place.  They would be an anti-thief, fighting fire with fire.
Let the Dice, Decide the Outcome.  Accept the Results.

DeadVerySoon

#10
January 18, 2022, 05:36:50 PM
Quote from: Omega on January 18, 2022, 05:33:46 PM
The ethical thief goes way back in legends and deeds in various forms.

People who rob the wealthy and donate to the needy. Sometimes bordering more on resistance movements.

People stealing from those that robbed them. This one goes quite far back. And pops up in more modern tales too.

People stealing from other criminals. The Green Hornet for example pretended to be this, the Shroud does it too. These tales are fairly old too of the hero joining the enemy to ruin them from within.

The vigilante who pockets anything of value off those they defeat or slay so as to afford survive, pay the bills, and to keep fighting crime or injustice.

And so on. Lots of examples out there ranging the full spectrum of altruistic to anything but.

Not really relevant to the OP

Omega

#11
January 18, 2022, 05:42:22 PM
Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 05:15:52 PM
Quote from: FingerRod on January 18, 2022, 05:06:41 PM
10 - 1 this turns into a piracy debate at some point...

But can there be an ethical thief? No. By definition there cannot. Value is irrelevant. Medium is irrelevant.

If no one is harmed by an act of taking something without paying for it, is it still theft?
Is the law itself not harmful in many cases?

Who determines what is not harmful?

Alot of advocates for pirating games and RPGs love to claim "we arent harming anyone so its fine!"

And this rolls back into role play. The supposedly ethical thief might actually be negatively impacting someone with their theft. Much how shoplifting can and does for stores.

DeadVerySoon

#12
January 18, 2022, 05:56:20 PM Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 10:21:33 PM by DeadVerySoon
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.

GnomeWorks

#13
January 18, 2022, 06:09:21 PM
Quote from: DeadVerySoon on January 18, 2022, 04:59:44 PMI'm saying that if the thief were NOT able to pay, it calls into question whether digital theft harmed the owners. \What do you mean by "..would have spent money at all in the first place."?

I meant exactly what I said.

If someone wasn't going to pay for a digital product at all to begin with, as in the owner of the good would never have received money from the person, then their theft of said digital product causes no damage because the owner wasn't going to get paid even if the thief didn't steal it.
Mechanics should reflect flavor. Always.
Running: Chrono Break: Dragon Heist + Curse of the Crimson Throne AP + Egg of the Phoenix (D&D 5e).
Planning: Rappan Athuk (D&D 5e).

DeadVerySoon

#14
January 18, 2022, 06:17:34 PM Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 10:22:06 PM by DeadVerySoon
Ok, this thread is closed. Too many dishonest asshole trolls on this site.
Print
Go Up Pages1 2 3 ... 6
User actions