Quote from: Jam The MF on January 20, 2023, 11:01:44 PM

I am a fan of players running 2 PC's; especially, if there are only one or two players.

I pretty much always do that, as long as the players want to.  The advantage is that everyone can still play if 1)  you need to split the party, or 2) one of your characters dies or is incapacitated.

I'm familiar with Genesys... while I like it, I wouldn't recommend it for the first game for your wife and kids.

Go OSE. It's easy to learn, easy to run - tons of support you can crib from other d20 material.

Quote from: Jam The MF on January 20, 2023, 11:01:44 PM

Quote from: Crusader X on January 20, 2023, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: Pen on January 20, 2023, 03:53:26 PM
Old School Essentials
Pros: simple and elegant rule set.
Cons: lethality and they might get bored with combat encounters.

I currently play OSE.  I'm the DM, and there are 3 players.  I let each player run 2 PCs, for an adventuring party of 6.  This has worked very well for us, as a party of 6 PCs will be much stronger than a party of 3.  And if a PC dies, the sting is lessened a bit because the player already has another character to run.

The lethality is still there, but the odds aren't so overwhelming.

I am a fan of players running 2 PC's; especially, if there are only one or two players.

We pretty much always run 2 PCs each; sometimes even 3 if we're playing OSE.  Our group seldom exceeds 4 players and we like to have parties of 6-8 characters.  But with OSE this is pretty simple to do.

Out of the three, OSE is the only one I have much familiarity with. It's not my favorite game, but I would recommend it as a starter, on the grounds that once players have a basic comfort level with OSR mechanics, it's an extremely easy switch to any of dozens of other games built on the same skeleton. If your players do get bored of it, you could easily move on to Dungeon Crawl Classics or Hyperborea or even something like Pathfinder without having to relearn the core mechanics.

If you go with OSE, though, I would recommend you do a homebrew conversion from THAC0 to Attack Bonus. That's easy to do, and you can just as easily do the conversion from negative to positive AC in your head. THAC0 has its defenders, but I firmly believe that an attack matrix is an unnecessary complication to throw at new players.

If you would like other recommendations for good starter RPGS, I'll throw in recommendations for Index Card RPG or EZd6: Two games with extremely simple, yet versatile core mechanics. I think you could teach a beginner to play either game in under half an hour. They also do not have leveling up, which simplifies matters for the player. People have registered concerns about the longevity of both games. I think that of the two, Index Card RPG probably has a lot more miles in it (due to its extensive item lists, multiple settings, and still having some class progression), but both games are quite cheap for hard copies off of DrivethruRPG. I will also say of Index Card RPG that it is set up in a manner which makes it incredibly easy to run and play, and the book contains a lot of very good advice for new DMs.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/366519/Index-Card-RPG-Master-Edition
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook

There's also Basic Fantasy RPG, which is much like OSE, but with ascending AC and possibly the cheapest books in the industry. You could probably buy your whole table copies of the core rulebook for less than the cost of a single OSE book.

https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Fantasy-Role-Playing-Game-3rd/dp/1503334945/ref=sr_1_1?crid=96MCDRKB2JF3&keywords=basic+fantasy+role-playing+game+3rd+edition&qid=1674283392&sprefix=basic+fanta%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-1

EDIT: Turns out that OSE has BAB/Ascending AC rules in it as well, so you wouldn't have to homebrew it.

OSE is questionable if you didn't start out with B/X D&D. Sure you could jump in new, but I don't think it teaches you to play the way Mentzer Basic did (and it's a copy of Moldvay/Cook Basic). Genesys is based on the system used for Star Wars Edge of the Empire. I've heard from otherwise non-gamers that EotE played very well, but haven't played it myself.

You listed not having a journey system as a con, which is surprising to me. Is that something you actually think you want, or is it just because TOR has it that you think it might be important?

OSE hands down IMO.
Like is already said here, it's Basic DnD cleaned up and some features added from ADnD if you want to use that.

I've been running OSE for some people at work, some of which didn't know what a Tabletop RPG is at all and had never heard of DnD, but were curious to play.
They picked it up very easily and it was super easy to explain and run as a DM for grognards and Newbies alike and they're all still playing and having fun.

 

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 21, 2023, 01:49:11 AM

If you go with OSE, though, I would recommend you do a homebrew conversion from THAC0 to Attack Bonus. That's easy to do, and you can just as easily do the conversion from negative to positive AC in your head. THAC0 has its defenders, but I firmly believe that an attack matrix is an unnecessary complication to throw at new players.

Not necessarily.  This is very dependent on how the players think.  In my experience, about 1/3 to 1/2 of players find their first RPG experience easier to grasp if you give them the numbers written down in a table.  This is true even if the system is one that doesn't use the matrix.  Now, out of those players, quite a few will, when shown a formula later, decide that is the better way to go.  Now having absorbed how to play and having a sense of how it all fits together from using the matrix.  Whereas some players, if you start them with the formula, will either freeze up or get so focused on it that it inhibits their ability to grasp the essentials of:  GM describes, asks what you do, you state what you do, GM decides what mechanics are relevant to what you do, then GM narrates.  Which is a much more important lesson to get out of the way early, and much harder to fix later if you start off wrong.

By all means, since the OP knows all the players well, if they are all quite happy with numbers and formulas and such, yeah, consider your advice. 

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 21, 2023, 01:49:11 AM
If you go with OSE, though, I would recommend you do a homebrew conversion from THAC0 to Attack Bonus. That's easy to do, and you can just as easily do the conversion from negative to positive AC in your head. THAC0 has its defenders, but I firmly believe that an attack matrix is an unnecessary complication to throw at new players.

OSE has both THACO and Ascending AC with Attack bonuses built right into the game.

Quote from: danskmacabre on January 21, 2023, 08:38:01 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 21, 2023, 01:49:11 AM
If you go with OSE, though, I would recommend you do a homebrew conversion from THAC0 to Attack Bonus. That's easy to do, and you can just as easily do the conversion from negative to positive AC in your head. THAC0 has its defenders, but I firmly believe that an attack matrix is an unnecessary complication to throw at new players.

OSE has both THACO and Ascending AC with Attack bonuses built right into the game.

You're right. I had forgotten about that. Will amend my original comment.

It still baffles me how people somehow can't figure out THACO or understand the concept of reading a "to hit" table.  It's the same level of math.  But then again, the average check out clerk at the grocery store these days can't compute change from a dollar so I guess that's the level society is at these days.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 21, 2023, 10:33:47 AM
It still baffles me how people somehow can't figure out THACO or understand the concept of reading a "to hit" table.  It's the same level of math.  But then again, the average check out clerk at the grocery store these days can't compute change from a dollar so I guess that's the level society is at these days.

It's not just THAC0. If you have magical armor, the positive modifier lowers your armor class. But if you have high Dexterity, the negative modifier lowers your armor class. Your negative modifier to dexterity also improves your saving throw, but the positive modifier from magical armor doesn't (but from a ring or amulet of protection does). So you've got a bunch of instances with inconsistent display of modifiers, where you don't know if higher is better or worse, or a positive number is good or bad, combined with other inconsistencies.

Throw in some DMs not wanting to reveal the AC, so rather than subtracting the AC from your THAC0 to determine if you hit, you have to roll, calculate what you would hit and report that to the DM, who then lets you know if you actually hit. That means part of the calculation that is just as easy is missing.

Quote from: migo on January 21, 2023, 07:39:42 AM
OSE is questionable if you didn't start out with B/X D&D. Sure you could jump in new, but I don't think it teaches you to play the way Mentzer Basic did (and it's a copy of Moldvay/Cook Basic). Genesys is based on the system used for Star Wars Edge of the Empire. I've heard from otherwise non-gamers that EotE played very well, but haven't played it myself.

You listed not having a journey system as a con, which is surprising to me. Is that something you actually think you want, or is it just because TOR has it that you think it might be important?

I tend to prefer overland adventures with players looking at maps, planning treks, and experiences mini adventures along the way. This is what draws me to ToR some. Trip planning and encounters along the way. I like the ToR in theory but it seems bland in play.

It seems like OSE/bx is the way to go.

Pen, if you like watching livestreams, THAC0 Tuesday is a good series where they play OSE and run The Keep on the Borderlands module.  Some of the sessions involve wilderness travel as well, so you might find the videos interesting.

Quote from: migo on January 21, 2023, 11:37:48 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 21, 2023, 10:33:47 AM
It still baffles me how people somehow can't figure out THACO or understand the concept of reading a "to hit" table.  It's the same level of math.  But then again, the average check out clerk at the grocery store these days can't compute change from a dollar so I guess that's the level society is at these days.

It's not just THAC0. If you have magical armor, the positive modifier lowers your armor class. But if you have high Dexterity, the negative modifier lowers your armor class. Your negative modifier to dexterity also improves your saving throw, but the positive modifier from magical armor doesn't (but from a ring or amulet of protection does). So you've got a bunch of instances with inconsistent display of modifiers, where you don't know if higher is better or worse, or a positive number is good or bad, combined with other inconsistencies.

Throw in some DMs not wanting to reveal the AC, so rather than subtracting the AC from your THAC0 to determine if you hit, you have to roll, calculate what you would hit and report that to the DM, who then lets you know if you actually hit. That means part of the calculation that is just as easy is missing.

Whatever.  We were all around 12 when we started playing and had no problem with it whatsoever.  Never met someone who was baffled by the way it worked back in the day, despite the seeming contradictions. 

I think it's simply a matter of pretty much everything in life being dumbed down these days.  As a teacher (in college no less) I've had to switch to keeping my grades out of 500 or 1000 because students can't comprehend weighted percentages anymore.  Even then I get questions from students who can't calculate their grades or figure out what they might need on a given assignment to raise their grade or whatever.