I think we've all been in situations where we're faced with the choice well my Character would do a) but b) would be awesome. However even this isn't a good test of whether you're a storygamer or a roleplayer. Everyone I know takes it on a case by case basis.

Quote from: Glazer;465912I think this is what you're looking for (from a thread that covers a lot of the same ground as this one, btw):

The one and same, Glazer, thanks.

I walked away from that post (and others I've possibly conflated with this) with the impression that his specific position was that the sequence of events resulting from RPG play does not a "story" (notice the quotation marks) make, because it arises from emulated interaction between characters and setting, rather than authorial pretense and/or adherence to literary forms and technique.

Which I found silly as hell back then, and still do.

Upon re-reading it, though, Ben and Kyle seem to be right. I stand corrected.

Quote from: Soylent Green;465902That's not what I meant. What I went on to say in the post you are quoting from is that nostalgia is only an issue in content of something like a discussion forum  (or possibly a game design competition) in which people often end up  trying to argue objective merits of games.

Obviously not. It clearly has value in the marketplace, where the rubber meets the road. The majority of game purchases don't happen via forum or game design competitions and thus when publishers use nostalgia to sell products in the real world, in real world situations, there has to be some perceived value in it. At least some customers must be factoring nostalgia into their purchasing decisions.

Thus, to my mind, the idea of poo-pahing those who bring up nostalgia is off base.

Seanchai

Quote from: Justin Alexander;465889For further reading, check out Roleplaying Games vs. Storytelling Games.

Quote from: Imperator;465904Man, all mechanics are dissociated. The act of stepping out of character to look at your sheet and grab some dice, see the result and decide the outcome is dissociative. Now, I will agree that some mechanics (marking in 4e) are more dissociative than other (a STR attribute). So no, I don't see that point.

That's not true. All mechanics are abstract. But they aren't necessarily dissociated. These are two different things. You need to read the blog post Justin linked to, mate (the link above I conveniently joined with this post).

Quote from: Justin A.As I wrote in the original essay on dissociated mechanics, all game mechanics are — to varying degrees — abstracted and metagamed. For example, the destructive power of a fireball is defined by the number of d6′s you roll for damage; and the number of d6′s you roll is determined by the caster level of the wizard casting the spell. If you asked a character about d6′s of damage or caster levels, they’d have no idea what you were talking about (that’s the abstraction and the metagaming). But they could tell you what a fireball was and they could tell you that casters of greater skill can create more intense flames during the casting of the spell (that’s the association).

So a fireball has a direct association to the game world. Which means that when, for example, you make a decision to cast a fireball spell you are making a decision as if you were your character — in making the mechanical decision you are required to roleplay (because that mechanical decision is directly associated to your character’s decision). You may not do it well. You’re not going to win a Tony Award for it. But in using the mechanics of a roleplaying game, you are inherently playing a role.

Quote from: Imperator;465904If you can, lay your hands either on Advanced HeroQuest (which, by the way, only uses D12s, which is awesome), or Warhammer Quest.

d12 are awesome. They need more love.

Quote from: Imperator;465904I've never found him to be a troll, just a very hardcore guy. But again, JDCorley has ben considered a troll here and in Story-Games.com, and I cannot for the life of me see how he is such. Actually, he owns most of the bestest threads ever in StoryGames, always showing the people how you can run awesome trad games.

I actually like JD a lot, when he's not being a twat.

I don't think he's a troll. I think he's got his own way to argue his positions, and sometimes he doesn't know when his shit stops being funny and starts being annoying. It's not conversation anymore, it just become thinly veiled provocation attempts, which I just think are best answered by a clean "fuck off" rather than anything else.

Quote from: Imperator;465904For me, all the eds of D&D share a lot in common, despite differences in system and rules.

I have this stupid ass dream of someday running a huge mega-campaign using each edition of D&D in - more or less - chronological order, assuming that each edition represents a different age of the word, with differences in the amount of magic available, changes in the races and stuff like that. Maybe a year of campaign for each ed or so, to keep things manageable.

OD&D > Mentzer BECMI D&D > 1e AD&D > 2e AD&D > 3e > 4e > LotFP for the crepuscular end of time. 7 years of campaign, a very long stretch but manageable nonetheless, specially if you have an open table.

Stop stealing my ideas! No, seriously, the "all editions campaign" is something I've had in mind for some time. I would go more for OD&D -> Supplements -> AD&D (1e) -> 3rd ed -> 4e, with a very specific application of 4e where it would actually make some kind of sense, and 2e rules (maybe not specific setting cameos) being completely skipped over because it's just 1e with its heart ripped out of its chest, so best left as a discarded corpse than anything else, but the idea's there.

Quote from: Benoist;465935d12 are awesome. They need more love.

Agreed. For my Tekumel game, For the Love of Golden Sapphire, I used d12s instead of 2d6 for the "Hexstat" version of BESM in Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne (trimmed down from the RAW), as a homage to Barker's use of 1d10 in his own games and because d12s get little love. That and I have a d12 from the early TSR milk jug plastic dice days I nicknamed Big Blue that rolls evilly. Much damage it did to the PCs. Roll TN or less on 1d12, if needed determine Margin of Success, done.

While I rather liked the MoS mechanic (and BRP for that matter), when I run Tekumel again I might flip it to roll high, just use a Best of Breed BRP/RQ mixed with Sandy Peterson's Runequest Tekumel rules, or give Empire of the Petal Throne + the full magic/clan/alignment etc. bits post-EPT a go.

For that matter, I wouldn't mind replacing any game that uses 2d6 with a d12. More random sure, but it's an easy cinematic twist.

Quote from: Imperator;465904Man, all mechanics are dissociated.

No. They're not.

I'd elaborate, but it's probably not worth my time until you have some clue what you're talking about.

Quote from: DominikSchwager;465910That is simply not true. Neither I, nor any of my players, has ever not achieved immersion because of mechanics.
That might be YOUR problem

Since I never said that dissociated mechanics would prevent immersion, I'm not really sure what the hell you think you're talking about.

Quote from: Soylent Green;465905I disagree with (2). I think sometimes to truly realise and communicate your character and what really matters to him you need you need be able to influence the game beyond simply physical simulation.

I'd argue that "roleplaying" and "communicating your character" are actually two different activities, although they may have related value for some people. (The former might be one way of achieving the latter, depending on how broadly you want to define "communicating your character". But even that doesn't mean that all means of achieving the latter would therefore be roleplaying.) Check out the essay I linked to.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;465946Since I never said that dissociated mechanics would prevent immersion, I'm not really sure what the hell you think you're talking about.

Whether you call it roleplaying or immersion doesn't really matter to me. Same arguement. Same old story. Same horn Benoist is blowing into.

Quote from: Benoist;465933That's not true. All mechanics are abstract. But they aren't necessarily dissociated. These are two different things. You need to read the blog post Justin linked to, mate (the link above I conveniently joined with this post).

Oh, I read it and I think is a great post. I just don't agree 100% with it. I like most of Justin's posts, as a matter of fact.

Quote from: Benoist;465935I don't think he's a troll. I think he's got his own way to argue his positions, and sometimes he doesn't know when his shit stops being funny and starts being annoying. It's not conversation anymore, it just become thinly veiled provocation attempts, which I just think are best answered by a clean "fuck off" rather than anything else.

Fair enough.

QuoteStop stealing my ideas! No, seriously, the "all editions campaign" is something I've had in mind for some time. I would go more for OD&D -> Supplements -> AD&D (1e) -> 3rd ed -> 4e, with a very specific application of 4e where it would actually make some kind of sense, and 2e rules (maybe not specific setting cameos) being completely skipped over because it's just 1e with its heart ripped out of its chest, so best left as a discarded corpse than anything else, but the idea's there.

I think it would be a great experiment, to say the least. I'd love to see how the rules of the world would change when you switch editions, or how you could say "In earlier ages there were no such spells!"

Quote from: Justin Alexander;465946No. They're not.

I'd elaborate, but it's probably not worth my time until you have some clue what you're talking about.

You know, I like your posts in your blog a lot more than your posts here because your limitations debating with people (specially people who disagrees with you) are less evident.

I've read the article several times, and I agree with most of your points. Actually, I have linked here several of your articles because I found them interesting (I specially like "Adjusting your expectations") before you became a member of the site, so it's not like we're coming from completely opposite positions. I just happen to disagree with some things you say, which hardly makes me a clueless twat or something like it.

I understand that you have a lot of experience in theater and acting, which qualifies you to talk about getting in character from a professional point of view. But as it happens, I am a psychologist in the process of getting a PhD in neuroscience and more than 10 years of experience in several fields, I can tell you that abstraction induces dissociation quite a fucking lot, because that is how our brain works, and frankly, when it comes to the function of the brain I have more than a clue on how it works. Now, not knowing about things like cognitive costs because of changing tasks and all that, hardly makes you a clueless twat, so I would appreciate the same consideration to me.

Of course you are under no obligation to do so, this is the nature of the site and I like it here this way. But frankly, answering "read the essay" is a ronedwardism that hardly flies here (or anywhere) because having written an essay on Internet (however well written yours usually are) doesn't become an absolute truth we all have to swear by.

When I smoke my pipe, there will almost inevitably be ash left over at the end.  Some of it will be nice neat white ash; some of it will be gunky "dottle" (half-unsmoked wet tobacco with black ash); sometimes there will be more or less ash left over from the smoking process.

But in no case would you really be able to say that the PURPOSE of smoking a pipe is "an exercise in producing ash".

RPGPundit

Quote from: DominikSchwager;465947Whether you call it roleplaying or immersion doesn't really matter to me.

Thanks for admitting that you were deliberately lying about what I said. Makes it really easy for everyone to ignore you.

Quote from: Imperator;465949I understand that you have a lot of experience in theater and acting, which qualifies you to talk about getting in character from a professional point of view. But as it happens, I am a psychologist in the process of getting a PhD in neuroscience and more than 10 years of experience in several fields, I can tell you that abstraction induces dissociation quite a fucking lot, because that is how our brain works, and frankly, when it comes to the function of the brain I have more than a clue on how it works. Now, not knowing about things like cognitive costs because of changing tasks and all that, hardly makes you a clueless twat, so I would appreciate the same consideration to me.

At best, you are talking about a completely different kind of dissociation than the association between mechanic and game world. I'm not sure if it's your poor English skills or your psychology degrees that are the problem here. But it's probably a correctable one if you're willing to fix it.

Your attempt to invoke an argument from authority, on the other hand, is just bad logic. Not much excuse for that at all.

QuoteBut frankly, answering "read the essay" is a ronedwardism that hardly flies here (or anywhere) because having written an essay on Internet (however well written yours usually are) doesn't become an absolute truth we all have to swear by.

And here, of course, you're just pulling a dominickschwager. Unless, of course, you'd care to quote me making the claim that the pre-existence of my essay somehow conveys "absolute truth".

Quote from: Benoist;465933That's not true. All mechanics are abstract. But they aren't necessarily dissociated. These are two different things. You need to read the blog post Justin linked to, mate (the link above I conveniently joined with this post).

*goes and reads the blogpost*

I'm not sure I understand. So what Justin's labeling "dissociated mechanics" are those which involve out-of-character decision-making?

If so, I mantain that, like Imperator says, there's a spectrum at work. You might as well argue that point-buy character generation is a dissociative mechanic.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;465952Thanks for admitting that you were deliberately lying about what I said. Makes it really easy for everyone to ignore you.

Paranoia much? I wasn't lying, I was just remarking that "roleplaying" and "immersion" is interchangeable in this context.

Quote from: The Butcher;465954*goes and reads the blogpost*

I'm not sure I understand. So what Justin's labeling "dissociated mechanics" are those which involve out-of-character decision-making?

If so, I mantain that, like Imperator says, there's a spectrum at work. You might as well argue that point-buy character generation is a dissociative mechanic.

Most Chargen is dissociative, period, and make poor examples.

Justin's point, and one I ascribe to, is that a dissociative mechanic is one that encourages/requires metagaming.   That is the litmus test.

Some are worse than others (which means that I agree there is a continuum here), some are 'in-game', while others are more 'GM-specific', but rules that promote 'out-of character' thinking are, in fact, the opposite of roleplaying.

I mean, technically, this is true.  Roleplaying, as a concept, existed before these games.  And the idea is to get into character, to assume a role, whether we are talking about the theraputic use, the acting use, or the gaming use.   (immersion is the term we like).

Rules that require the player to think out of character/out of game to use reduce the roleplaying component of a game.  Doesn't make it less fun by definintion, doesn't make it a better or worse game by definition, doesn't make it a better or worse match by definition.  
It does make it more or less of a roleplaying/in-character experience.  Or That is what I perceive, right or wrong.

Quote from: Casey777;465940Agreed. For my Tekumel game, For the Love of Golden Sapphire, I used d12s instead of 2d6 for the "Hexstat" version of BESM in Tekumel: Empire of the Petal Throne (trimmed down from the RAW), as a homage to Barker's use of 1d10 in his own games and because d12s get little love. That and I have a d12 from the early TSR milk jug plastic dice days I nicknamed Big Blue that rolls evilly. Much damage it did to the PCs. Roll TN or less on 1d12, if needed determine Margin of Success, done.

While I rather liked the MoS mechanic (and BRP for that matter), when I run Tekumel again I might flip it to roll high, just use a Best of Breed BRP/RQ mixed with Sandy Peterson's Runequest Tekumel rules, or give Empire of the Petal Throne + the full magic/clan/alignment etc. bits post-EPT a go.

For that matter, I wouldn't mind replacing any game that uses 2d6 with a d12. More random sure, but it's an easy cinematic twist.

I have a draft of a game system somewhere that uses d12 - d12 I brainstormed about some years back. I feel much like you do. I use d12 for different occasions, one of them involving d6 rolls in OD&D, you know, when you have "1 in 6 chance to detect a concealed door" that king of thing ? Well I use d12 just as well.

That RQ Tékumel stuff looks neat. Thanks for linking to it, mate.