Quote from: Armchair Gamer;986453Well, first, define religion ...

The culture that surrounds the worship of a deity or philosophy of life.

'Triggered'? I was mocking your meaningless use of the word modernist and the-par-for-the-course on here dismissal ('meh' not once but twice) of something you haven't even read. Course I realize humour isn't something you're too familar with.

Commenting negatively on something based on your by defintion uninformed 'impressions' is pretty close to threadcrapping. But you and I arguing over your dumb post will just be further threadcrapping so I'll let you have the all important last word.

Quote from: estar;986541The culture that surrounds the worship of a deity or philosophy of life.

Yep. Modernday people try to seperate out 'spirituality' and religion but I think this is a simple enough encapsulation. I think religion usually has a communal or community aspect that Runequest captures well.

Quote from: Voros;986545Yep. Modernday people try to seperate out 'spirituality' and religion but I think this is a simple enough encapsulation. I think religion usually has a communal or community aspect that Runequest captures well.

One reason I place the emphasis on culture is that one aspect of culture is a description of how member generally behave. This is useful in a tabletop roleplaying game as  baseline for roleplaying NPCs from that culture.  Plus since people can be part of multiple cultures at the same time (of lesser or greater scope) this can be used to add complexity and nuances to a given NPCs. While both are from the Kingdom of Erehwemoe, one may be an adherent of the Thothian faith, while the other is a Setite. So while both have stuff in common from being from Erehwemoe, definitely have different outlook on what that means for them because of their respective faiths.

And the supplemental material for Runequest was one of the first good attempts at incorporating these ideas into tabletop RPGs.

Quote from: Voros;986545I think religion usually has a communal or community aspect that Runequest captures well.

Quote from: EstarOne reason I place the emphasis on culture is that one aspect of culture is a description of how member generally behave.

Yep, agreed. There was a little booklet called "What the priest says" or something that depicted each culture different point of view and world values. It was neat.

Quote from: LunamancerMeh

Also meh.

Fair. If the game dont resonate with you, dont sweat it.

As regards selling the game short, I think from Lunamancer's perspective that is what's going on. RQ2 and even more RQ3 can be seen as your basic adventuring game with as much breadth as that implies. It's just that the magic--especially Rune (RQ 2) and Divine (RQ 3) magic has a mechanic that's tightly connected to patronage between god and worshiper. As far as comparisons to D&D go, you don't have to go hunting for it, but you also don't have to consciously enforce it thematically--the rules are there to be exploited, and by exploiting them, you get a "religious" structure. Don't like that concept of religion & magic? Well, there's also shamanism (and sorcery in RQ3), plus mysticism and maybe some other structures in MRQ/Mythras. (Go further afield into other fantasy BRP such as Elric and you'll find still more.)

However, again, I don't see the stuff about ritual reenacting myth in the core RQ books. Anyone care to answer my question about that?

Arminius, Cults of Prax has an essay in the intro explaining the importance of "imitation of the gods deeds" for the everyday life of it's worshippers. I think Cults of Terror also has it. Besides that, the "Travels of Biturian Varosh" show a couple of these reenactments first hand (the one from the Baboons is specially fresh in my mind, where they reenact an event from the great darkness). But I'm almost sure other parts reference this too, explicitly or not, through descriptions of cults, adventures, NPCs, places, etc.

Quote from: Arminius;986432Where in RQ is the "reenact myth" stuff? I know that's in Glorantha, the setting, and in KoDP. Maybe in Hero Wars/Hero Quest.  But I never came across that in the core RQ rules other than allusions to heroquesting . Is it in Cults of Prax?

It is spread out all over the place, unfortunately. Arcane Lore has the most, of all published supplements/books, but that is a mish mash of rules from many systems. Some of the Mongoose RQ supplements covered HeroQuesting in depth. Hopefully the new RQ will do this.

Quote from: Arminius;986609As regards selling the game short, I think from Lunamancer's perspective that is what's going on. RQ2 and even more RQ3 can be seen as your basic adventuring game with as much breadth as that implies. It's just that the magic--especially Rune (RQ 2) and Divine (RQ 3) magic has a mechanic that's tightly connected to patronage between god and worshiper. As far as comparisons to D&D go, you don't have to go hunting for it, but you also don't have to consciously enforce it thematically--the rules are there to be exploited, and by exploiting them, you get a "religious" structure.

Well, I think for starters there's a mismatch to how D&D is being characterized vs how I see D&D. It's like if I see D&D as blue and everyone else sees it as yellow, saying RQ has a darker color makes me think purple, not green or orange. So we may be starting out with not the greatest point of reference.

Then it compounds because features that others may find important to bringing out the game's unique color I may find not important or even contrary to the hew. For instance, a side example I've seen it over and over again where some gamers think if you're going to run a campaign with a lot of social interaction, you need a game with lots of rules for that sort of thing. Whereas I want mechanics for social interaction mainly if my campaign is going to de-emphasize social interaction, that way I can throw some dice, get it resolved, and move on without spending much time on it. If social interaction is central to the campaign, on the other hand, I don't want a lot of rules for it. That would be like saying I want to run an arm-wrestling tournament in my basement, but then when you show up we just flip coins to see who wins. It kind of defeats the purpose.

So I think that's where the failure of communicate is here. People saying "Well, RQ does this" "D&D does that" without really discussing HOW it accomplishes it. I'm already sold on the idea of religion being more central to the campaign. I'm currently running a campaign heavy with religious themes, and I'm working my next one as being even more so. I've been re-focusing clerics to emphasize their role in society and their relationship with their god or gods. The current campaign is really more like a 6-month long "one-off" epic adventure, so this stuff doesn't come up a whole lot, but it has allowed me to let some of it trickle in, so I'm re-working things as I go. The new one is going to be more "here's the world, do what you want" so I think how everything fits together in the world is going to be a lot more important.

The way I see this working is first to understand a couple of things that are BtB but seemed to get glossed over. First, like in Greek mythology, the gods walk the Earth. They sometimes meddle in human affairs, and the fallout from their divine soap opera impact the realm of men. Second, cleric spells aren't just you pray, gods grant them. When you notice several cleric spells have components like "pinch of sulfur", there's a craft to it. Some of that craft, through spells like Augury, Divination, and Commune help the cleric establish a connection with the divine. Only the most powerful spells are granted directly by the deity. So I think RAW D&D has

What I'm doing different is first, nixing the idea that all clerics get access to the entire spell list. Each Saint is known for performing a different miracle. It's not clear why clerics of the same pantheon, ethos, and religion in an RPG should all have the same spell list. This makes each cleric more unique and less like commodities from the stand point of the deities. The gods play chess, not checkers. Second, I'm adding spells specifically to aid clerics in their roles within society; performing rites, offering guidance, alms for the needy, expanding on things like atonement, including things like excommunication, and so on. Third, I'm expanding on ways in which the cleric can communicate and interact with divine powers. Whereas most characters influence the world and the "story" through their actions, since gods can manipulate the world and story directly, clerics begin to access some of that potential.

Pardon me, Lunamancer, while I step in to rant.

FFS, Itachi (and Soltakss to a lesser degree), I'm not saying Heroquesting and community rituals don't exist in Glorantha. I'm saying they're just flavor text as far as Runequest, the actual rules, are concerned. RQ is rightly distinguished by the way it mechanically portrays Rune Priests, Rune Lords, and Shamans without resorting to handwaving, but if it didn't have those things, some fluffy vignettes and essays about Heroquesting wouldn't make RQ stand out.

Answering the original question: Sure! HeroQuest/Hero Wars and the upcoming 13th Age in Glorantha do it, too.(i.e. other games set in Glorantha.)

Arminius, I don't know if I got your point. Heroquesting was never mechanically implemented in RQ as far as I know. About community obligations, it's related to the way cults work. *edit: Ninja'd by Soltakks. Yeah Mongoose RQ did Heroquesting.

Quote from: Lunamancer;986637Snip

Lunamancer, you can make a great religious game out of D&D, but that doesn't mean D&D is great at doing religion. If we are comparing games, we must judge them by their own merits as supporters and facilitators of play - not solely by what players do with them. Can we agree on that?

P.S: by the way, your game's treatment of religion sounds great and I would gladly play on it.

Quote from: Arminius;986641RQ is rightly distinguished by the way it mechanically portrays Rune Priests, Rune Lords, and Shamans without resorting to handwaving

So what is it doing mechanically?

I've mentioned what I'm refocusing in D&D, but the roots of it are already there. Augury, Divination, and Commune for the cleric to communicate with the divine. Atonement is an example of something that helps define their role in society--even Command speaks to a certain degree of (spiritual) authority. Bless, chant, and prayer give at least some hint to procedural rituals. There are also followers attracted upon building a temple. That in turn raises factors like loyalty and morale, It may only be 8 or so spells total, but there's something mechanical going on in D&D. A lot more on all fronts in Gary's later fantasy games.

What's going on so different in RQ?

Quote from: Itachi;986646Lunamancer, you can make a great religious game out of D&D, but that doesn't mean D&D is great at doing religion. If we are comparing games, we must judge them by their own merits as supporters and facilitators of play - not solely by what players do with them. Can we agree on that?

Eh. This seems like one of those in-theory vs in-practice things. Some RPGs are more resilient to tinkering than others. A resilient one that does 20% of what I want may actually be better-suited than a fragile one that does 80% of what I want. I think pushing aside what players do with the game for the sake of comparing games is a lot like a blind man judging a beauty pageant. A game is nothing without the players.

That said, I see cliches being tossed out about perfunctory religion and whatnot. I'm not seeing any meat behind the claims. Sure, I'm making a few changes (present tense) but I've also pointed out a lot of stuff that was in the game before I touched it that a lot of people just seem to miss, so I'm not really willing to agree that D&D  doesn't do religion great. Perhaps more important, I still don't have a clear picture of what you or anyone else means by an RPG doing a good job with religion. I don't think that's been articulated very well if at all.

King of Dragon Pass is pretty cheap and available on PC and IOS. Why don't you take a look?

Otherwise, really, don't sweat it. You don't agree with us, that's fine too.