I'm reading this thread and BW has me entirely confused. I'm too stupid to play it. I'll stick with CoC and BRP doing everything.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1066677How about this:

The book literally says: To start off only use the first 74 pages
(The first 74 pages are available for free at Drivethru)

As for the basic mechanics:

Roll d6 dice pools to beat a target number. A 4-6 on a die is a success against the target number. A 1-3 does not count.

That is the basics. Hope it helps!

I read the entire Burning Wheel book a couple years and couldn't understand wtf it was trying to convey. I figured out D&D on my own when I was in junior high. It's pretty obvious to me these sorts of "games" are mental exercises, not actually meant to be played in the sense we understand games are played. Even the rules for fucking Magic Realm aren't 74 pages long, and that game is insanely complex.

I'm filing Burning Wheel into the same category as stuff like Dungeon World and Nobilis: just nonsensical bullshit people insist makes sense.

Great game, few opportunities I've had to play were online which tends to dull the experience but overall definitely a game to add to your stable.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1066677How about this:

The book literally says: To start off only use the first 74 pages
(The first 74 pages are available for free at Drivethru)

As for the basic mechanics:

Roll d6 dice pools to beat a target number. A 4-6 on a die is a success against the target number. A 1-3 does not count.

That is the basics. Hope it helps!

Chris, do these pages include the Belief, Instincts, Artha thing? Because from what I've read, it's one of the most distinctive things about the game.

Care to talk a bit about those, btw?

Quote from: Brad;1066776I'm filing Burning Wheel into the same category as stuff like Dungeon World and Nobilis: just nonsensical bullshit people insist makes sense.

Dungeon World is actually pretty simple, specially compared to more mainstream games like D&D or Pathfinder. So I'm not following you here.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1066748The biggest thing missing from that first 75 pages that matters during play is a tutorial on how to write Beliefs, Instincts, and Goals that work inside the game.  Get those wrong, and the game will be very flat.  The players are supposed to both roleplay the "BITs" AND game the hell out of them.  Thus, they are also the hardest thing to get right with pre-gens.  

You could, with players that took it in the spirit intended, have a trial period where the players got to monkey with their "BITs" until they were working properly.  They are allowed, and even expected to change, but not usually during a session.  But better to tweak them than having a session that frustrated everyone because the players didn't have the hang of it when they put in the first attempt at the "BITs".

Also: grab a copy of the sword and read through it. It does a very good job of selling Burning Wheel on it's own terms. Granted, it's an "adventure" that is entirely the party bickering over who has the strongest claim to the magic sword they're all questing for (and start the game with). But, that's what you're getting in to with Burning Wheel.

If you love that, you'll love the system. If that sounds tedious and awful, give it a pass.

Found this explanation (from here) about the dynamics of Belief-Instincts-Traits. Interesting and kinda similar to Pendragon? (with the Virtues and Passions working as "Flags" and also as important things to be challenged during play) and some PbtA games:



"Remember that Beliefs are Player Flags. In other words they are player-set priorities for what they want out of the game, not character emotions, ethics or points of view. Albiet the best Beliefs are written 'in character' to maintain the fictional premise.

That said:
Write one Belief about the situation at hand that can be achieved this session (the reason the player is interested in the premise of the game.)

Write one Belief about another PC

Write one Belief about a long term goal or aspiration.

Make sure each belief has a standpoint statement and an action statement. 'I think this, and will prove it by doing this.'

Make sure you reward players achieving Beliefs: pure XP, AP, bonus dice, whatever, so long as there is a feedback loop for chasing the priorities you listed on the character sheet!

Challenge the Players Beliefs in play. Don't design encounters suitable to the PCs levels and power, design encounters that challenge their Beliefs. Give them the play they are asking for. If that means no combat, or all combat, so be it, just don't try and 'fit' your players beliefs to your concept of how the story should play out, nor the carefully prepared plot you designed earlier. Prepare NPCS, foils to Beliefs and situational possibilities that cause conflict between the players and within their ideals. Design encounters that make difficult choices for the players (based on their Beliefs) and see where the story goes."

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1066677To start off only use the first 74 pages...

That tells me what I need to know, for sure! The number of players I'd attract with such a ruleset is the same as, well, zero.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1066677The book literally says: To start off only use the first 74 pages
(The first 74 pages are available for free at Drivethru)
 

Quote from: Zalman;1066825That tells me what I need to know, for sure! The number of players I'd attract with such a ruleset is the same as, well, zero.

As a side note, the book is physically small.  Those pages are 5.5x8.5 inches, not 8.5x11.  Then consider the margins are almost an inch all around, a couple page filling art pieces and the title/credit pages.

The 74 pages in the free PDF probably wouldn't fill 30 pages if they were re-edited to be in a normal book size.

I expl

Quote from: Zalman;1066825That tells me what I need to know, for sure! The number of players I'd attract with such a ruleset is the same as, well, zero.

I explained the core mechaknic in that same post in one sentence. That can get the game going.

I understand nonsensical, counter-reality-exaggerated arguments are the norm around here, but clearly we all often play RPGs that have at least a few dozen pages devoted to the players that the players never read.

I am going to be running Pendragon for my group in January. There are dozens of pages that it would be great for my players to read so they could grasp the mechanics of play clearly. They will not be reading them. Somehow we will still play.

When it comes to BW - going back to the question in the OP - no, you do not have to read or master the entire brick of a book to play it. The first 74 pages of rules is all you need. Which is a distinctly shorter set of rules than many other RPGs.

Quote from: Brad;1066776I read the entire Burning Wheel book a couple years and couldn't understand wtf it was trying to convey. I figured out D&D on my own when I was in junior high. It's pretty obvious to me these sorts of "games" are mental exercises, not actually meant to be played in the sense we understand games are played. Even the rules for fucking Magic Realm aren't 74 pages long, and that game is insanely complex.

I'm filing Burning Wheel into the same category as stuff like Dungeon World and Nobilis: just nonsensical bullshit people insist makes sense.

^This. I also picked up Torchbearer to give it a read through, even though I heard it was similar to BW. Another waste of time and money. More of the same confusing and convoluted nonsense.

I played in a year-long campaign of Burning Wheel within the Harn setting. It was definitely fun, but also definitely had a steep learning curve that took a lot of buy-in for us to get into. I don't think I'd go back to it at this point, but it was fun to try as a change of pace.

Burning Wheel is a rules-heavy system - at least comparable to Hero System or GURPS, with the added hurdle of some greater difficulty in learning because it's significantly different from other systems. Azraele's summary wasn't completely off-base, but it's a negative spin on a system that a lot of people enjoy.

I'd agree that looking over The Sword scenario or playing Mouse Guard are good introductions to the system and style of play - though Burning Wheel is both more flexible and more involved than Mouse Guard. It's good at making die rolls dramatic, and in making failure costly though not necessarily deadly. Our campaign was low-combat and we didn't have any PC deaths, but it would easily have been possible.

Quote from: jhkim;1066859I played in a year-long campaign of Burning Wheel within the Harn setting. It was definitely fun, but also definitely had a steep learning curve that took a lot of buy-in for us to get into. I don't think I'd go back to it at this point, but it was fun to try as a change of pace.

Burning Wheel is a rules-heavy system - at least comparable to Hero System or GURPS, with the added hurdle of some greater difficulty in learning because it's significantly different from other systems. Azraele's summary wasn't completely off-base, but it's a negative spin on a system that a lot of people enjoy.

I'd agree that looking over The Sword scenario or playing Mouse Guard are good introductions to the system and style of play - though Burning Wheel is both more flexible and more involved than Mouse Guard. It's good at making die rolls dramatic, and in making failure costly though not necessarily deadly. Our campaign was low-combat and we didn't have any PC deaths, but it would easily have been possible.

Yeah I'm starting to regret the venom I poured into it. It is something I intensely dislike, and the attitude of a lot of its fans rubs me all kinds of the wrong way. But hey; who am I to judge your fun? FoRK your skills and burn your Artha wheelheads, don't let my cranky ass stop you.

Apparently I am not the best ambassador for BW : ).  Will leave it at that.  I totally gronk that the system is unique, and the underlying assumptions are different, but that is what it is.  I don't wish to present it is anything different than a game that will ask one to change their gaming "language" and gaming mechanics.  Again, each to his own. It works for me.

Quote from: jhkim;1066859I played in a year-long campaign of Burning Wheel within the Harn setting. It was definitely fun, but also definitely had a steep learning curve that took a lot of buy-in for us to get into. I don't think I'd go back to it at this point, but it was fun to try as a change of pace.

Hi John! Hear you, and miss gaming with Jim : )