On the other hand, don't forget the reverse is true. Simply because you can build a character with psychological complexity, one shouldn't be let off the hook for taking the Quick Draw feat at 1st level.

The most important thing is to be in tune with one's group. If everyone else is building optimised characters and the DM is swapping out Alertness on monster builds, you should also strive to build a character who will match his allies mechanically. If everyone is focusing on writing back stories filled with hooks, you should spend less time figuring out how to get an additional +1 to hit at 5th level, and more time on building relationships to the world and the story.

Now ideally, I don't see a need to choose between the two. I'd love to play in a game where everyone was a "chain-gun tripper" with the depth of Hamlet.

I think folks are getting drawn into the whole rpg roll v role misconception best left buried, because we (well most of us) realize that the "g" in rpg also means gestalt.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Tyberious FunkMy point exactly. If you (I mean the general "you") enjoy optimising character builds, then go ahead and knock yourself out. That's your fun. My fun, might be something quite different.
 
Trying to tell me that one method is inherrently better than another... well, to be honest, that's fucking swine-talk.  Apparently, because my group are more inclined to build interesting characters rather than optimised ones, we must be doing it wrong.

See, you have to keep in mind, your'e the one who disdains the so-called "munchkins", while the reverse isn't true. I'm not saying people shouldn't work together or roleplay anywhere, either. I'm talking about the "game" part of roleplaying.

The roleplaying part of RPG is something every individual has to work out for themselves. Not everyone wants to be a performance artist, and frankly I think it's a lot more of a stretch to see people get together recreationally for "roleplaying" rather than get people together to "play a game".

Quote from: Abyssal MawThe roleplaying part of RPG is something every individual has to work out for themselves. Not everyone wants to be a performance artist, and frankly I think it's a lot more of a stretch to see people get together recreationally for "roleplaying" rather than get people together to "play a game".

Y'know, you've dropped the whole "performance art" bullshit a couple of times now.  Just because I don't dig on trying to create optimised character builds, doesn't suddenly make my prefered style of game like amateur theatre night.  There is a middle ground you know.

Quote from: Tyberious FunkY'know, you've dropped the whole "performance art" bullshit a couple of times now.  Just because I don't dig on trying to create optimised character builds, doesn't suddenly make my prefered style of game like amateur theatre night.  There is a middle ground you know.

You misunderstand:

It's not one or the other. You can have both. But what I want to stress is that 'roleplaying' is merely a descriptive adjective. If you're going to discuss games, you need to discuss them as games.

This hobby is not about performance. Pretending it is has not benefited anyone.

Just happened to notice this over at EN World...

"What I did was to maximize the potential of each of my PCs while staying within not only the rules but also the spirit of the game. The success of such play is wholly within the realm of the game form. Excellence of play is rewarded, while incompetence is penalized.

Power gaming is entirely different from playing well. Never once was I attempting to have the most powerful character, only to play to the best of my ability within the framework of the game rules and the DM's campaign, the scenario presented at the time."

--Gary Gygax

Quote from: GrimGentJust happened to notice this over at EN World...

"What I did was to maximize the potential of each of my PCs while staying within not only the rules but also the spirit of the game. The success of such play is wholly within the realm of the game form. Excellence of play is rewarded, while incompetence is penalized.

Power gaming is entirely different from playing well. Never once was I attempting to have the most powerful character, only to play to the best of my ability within the framework of the game rules and the DM's campaign, the scenario presented at the time."

--Gary Gygax

From where I'm standing, that line's looking pretty hazy.

Not that I don't understand (or at least, have my own understanding). Holding up your end and making yourself an asset to the group is playing well. Breaking the spirit of the rules to make a kickass character that discards enjoyment and believability in the name of mechanical dominance is not playing well.

Must be old age, but I find myself increasingly in agreement with Slaadman.

Re. the quote, I think what EGG is trying to get at is ye olde '70s D&D ethos:

"So in our OD&D game, I rolled 3d6 down the line: Got a 6 in Wis, which zaps my Cleric concept; everything else is around 9, but I have a 13 in Cha. Well, I guess I have to suck it up--play a Thief who doesn't know his job properly and who has zero foresight, but who at least has a silken tongue and better party leader skills than everyone else."

So, EGG's idea of "playing well" is situational power gaming: make the most of what fate hands to you--no point-buy.

That does tend to make loophole abuse a lesser issue... if only because your typical loophole abuser won't ever play in  a game where he's handed a PC like the above.

For me, character builds fight against exploring play of a new, different, or interesting character that is not optimized.  The game, the gaming group, and my own character preferences make me feel encouraged to do it.  Part of my love of MARVEL's random character creation is making sense of a character I normally wouldn't make on my own to play.  I like the idea of playing characters that go against archetype like a physically hulking not overly intelligent wizard but I'm nervous about making myself so inferior that I'm not contributing to the party or the game.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThis hobby is not about performance. Pretending it is has not benefited anyone.

Except that noone here is doing that.  You're making shit up.  You're trying to tell me that there is some "superior" way to play RPGs, and I just don't see it.  Apparently, any time I have a choice between purchasing a skill that provides greater power versus one that it is more appropriate to my character, by chosing the latter, I'm suddenly not doing it right.  If I don't seek out the kewlest, most l33t combos, I'm an inferior player.
 
Why stop there, though?  I should be buying as many supplements as possible, and spending as much time as I can spare reading and learning all the intricacies of the rules.  After all, that's what the guys who write "build guides" do.  What do you mean you don't own the Complete Guide to Nose Pickers?  Dude!  There are so many kewl Nose Picking Feats you can take to totally make your character rad.  Take the Nose Picker prestige class, add Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation in Finger, take the Deep Knuckle technique and buy an Hanky of Protection. FTW!
 
What do you mean you don't want to actually play a Nose Picker?  Well, don't worry.  Because most of the guys producing build guides never actually play the characters they propose.
 
But apparently they are nonetheless "superior" players.