TheRPGSite

Or, rather, please provide advice on how I can own a copy of the rules.

I'm actually quite opposed to, and uninterested in, actual...you know...beheadings.

You could just ask for the head with the specification that it's mostly intact body comes with it. :) You probably don't want the "real thing" though, the misses might not understand (http://cgi.ebay.ca/RPG-D-D-ORIGINAL-1974-DUNGEONS-DRAGONS-BOXED-SET_W0QQitemZ200205214697QQihZ010QQcategoryZ2545QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem). :cool:

If we had the money?  Hells yes she'd understand.  She's the one whose AD&D 1st ed DMG I use for C&C.

Dr. Rotwang,
You live a very special life. FYI.

In case nobody else has mentioned it, or you've somehow not figured it out: That's a keeper. :)

They're available as PDFs from, I think, DriveThruRPG.

I know SOMEBODY has legally downloadable PDFs.

Last time I checked, which was some time back admittedly, I thought they just had the supplements and not the core but Old Geezer is right. (http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=159_3938)  EDIT: Though the details explain it is the 6th printing.

Permit me a moment of gloating over the fact that last year I scored a copy in the original shrinkwrap for $75.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!...and uninterested in, actual...you know...beheadings.

Pity. I was actually going to deliver the head of OD&D. Mearls would have put up a fight. He would have lost....

Regards,
David R

So the first D&D (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17174&it=1) was a wargame? I always thought it called itself an RPG. Had the term just not been coined yet?

Quote from: James McMurraySo the first D&D (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17174&it=1) was a wargame?

Yes, but a very bad one. It could only be played over the phone.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/%7Ebeattie/timeline/1972-1979/dd.gif

Note to Doc Rotwang:

You will only need the original 3 rulebooks.  The official supplements mainly put AD&D brand pants on the system.  If you want anything else, try getting the Judge's Guild booklet Ready Ref Sheets or the Arduin Grimoire.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityPermit me a moment of gloating over the fact that last year I scored a copy in the original shrinkwrap for $75.

And a moment of wailing and tearing at my flesh over the fact that I sold my copy, along with the three original supplements, to the kid on the next block for $20 tops.

If you buy them without box, they are cheaper.

About $99

A guy from work is getting rid of his collection - including a white box.  He's going to want going rate, but I might be able to do some bargaining if I talk to him as he hates to have to deal with the e-bay thing.

He's got all kinds of stuff.  Maybe I'll get a list this weekend (finally) - there's Top Secret, Gamma World, all original stuff.

I think the going rate is..what...$250?

EDIT: Holy Shit - $500? Weren't they just going for 250 like a year ago? That's not a wood grain (in the ebay link), right?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityYes, but a very bad one. It could only be played over the phone.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/%7Ebeattie/timeline/1972-1979/dd.gif

Interesting. I guess it's a good thing I didn't get into the hobby until Basic D&D. I'm not really a phone person. ;)

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Or, rather, please provide advice on how I can own a copy of the rules.

Hmmm... looking thru my 0D&D library, I do have an extra dog-eared and marked-up copy of the Rules Cyclopedia (A combination of the Blue and Redbook set with some xtra stuff added in). $10 plus parcel post shipping and I'll send it out to you.

Re,
Dirk

Quote from: GameDaddy

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Or, rather, please provide advice on how I can own a copy of the rules.

Hmmm... looking thru my 0D&D library, I do have an extra dog-eared and marked-up copy of the Rules Cyclopedia (A combination of the Blue and Redbook set with some xtra stuff added in). $10 plus parcel post shipping and I'll send it out to you.

Re,
Dirk

P.S. Also have an extra worn copy of the Ready Ref sheets, complete with rusting staples. I'll throw that in for 7.50 more as well (My cost when I originally bought these books)

You can check with Aaron at Noble Knight Games, last I heard he had a pretty good selection of 0D&D stuff, including white booksets and supplements, though their has probably been a run on that as well in the last few days, and that usually commands top dollar.

Tony Zilz used to have a bunch of the old judges guild stuff including ready ref sheets, and a good portion of the JG line. Don't know if he even sells
that anymore.

Tony Zilz - aka ousmay on eBay - Tony has lots of out-of-print Judges Guild stuff in stock. He has no website so far, but you can reach him by email and ask for his extensive product list. Click on the link below to write a mail to Tony Zilz.

mailto:wazilz@jlink.net


With Regards

Quote from: James McMurraySo the first D&D (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=17174&it=1) was a wargame? I always thought it called itself an RPG. Had the term just not been coined yet?

The term, as I understand, was invented in the Alarums&Excursions fanzine after ODD was published. I think I may have seen the term in an OD&D supplement, The Strategic Review issue, or some other old publication.

Somehow I remember it appearing in the price list at the back of one of the 1st three supplements or something.

Quote from: James J SkachA guy from work is getting rid of his collection - including a white box.  He's going to want going rate, but I might be able to do some bargaining if I talk to him as he hates to have to deal with the e-bay thing.

He's got all kinds of stuff.  Maybe I'll get a list this weekend (finally) - there's Top Secret, Gamma World, all original stuff.

I think the going rate is..what...$250?

EDIT: Holy Shit - $500? Weren't they just going for 250 like a year ago? That's not a wood grain (in the ebay link), right?

That's the asking price. Sometimes people fish for absurdly high prices. It doesn't mean it's what people normally pay for one.

Quote from: James McMurrayInteresting. I guess it's a good thing I didn't get into the hobby until Basic D&D. I'm not really a phone person. ;)

My understanding is that they were aiming to sell it to wargamers so it had "wargame" and "with miniatures" on the cover.  Of course that review is probably by some stodgy old guy that didn't get what this new way of playing wargames was all about.

That sort of things happens. ;)

Quote from: blakkieMy understanding is that they were aiming to sell it to wargamers so it had "wargame" and "with miniatures" on the cover.  Of course that review is probably by some stodgy old guy that didn't get what this new way of playing wargames was all about.

That sort of things happens. ;)

I think I chuckled the hardest at the part where the reviewer was complaining about the expensive $10 buy-in price.  :D

It's not like they were being crafty or anything by putting "wargame" on the cover. A somewhat loose metaphor would be if one brontosaurus turned to another, pointed at an archaeopteryx, and said, "Look at that funny dinosaur!" If D&D hadn't spawned a ton of imitators and generated a distinct audience, it would still be thought of as a wargame.

Quote from: Elliot WilenIt's not like they were being crafty or anything by putting "wargame" on the cover. A somewhat loose metaphor would be if one brontosaurus turned to another, pointed at an archaeopteryx, and said, "Look at that funny dinosaur!" If D&D hadn't spawned a ton of imitators and generated a distinct audience, it would still be thought of as a wargame.

Brontosaurus is not a real dinosaur

Well, I have the RC, but with all these different editions and stuff I'm not sure just which OD&D I have, see?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Well, I have the RC, but with all these different editions and stuff I'm not sure just which OD&D I have, see?

I wonder how much mine are worth?  I have the original magical three (Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasure, Wilderness Adventures), as well as a copy of Chainmail.  All are in good condition, except that the first owner, my pal, wrote some stuff in pencil on some of the pages in a couple of the books.  Well, I can't complain though - he gave them to me for free back in 1978 so I could use them as a base for the rules for my world.   I've held on to them somehow over all these years.   Chainmail, btw, IIRC is in pretty much mint condition.   I also have the original Blackmoor book.  Anyone have a bead on what they might be worth?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Well, I have the RC, but with all these different editions and stuff I'm not sure just which OD&D I have, see?

http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?cPath=3938

Buy the PDF, print it out, and play. Monitor Ebay, look for the OCE (the original collector edition or white box edition), bid on it and hopefully win without breaking the bank. if you do have the money go for one of the wood grain editions. If you see an OCE for a really high prices ($100+) then take a pass. Ask the guys at http://www.acaeum.com about pricing and worth.

OD&D in a nutshell.

OD&D three booklets - Three classes (Fighter, Magic User, Cleric), everyone uses a 1d6 for HD with the 3 classes getting a HD at different times. MU goes up to 6th level spells, Cleric up to 5th i.e. Raise Dead is the uber cleric spell.

Combat can use Chainmail's system for man to man or an alternative system that involves rolling a d20 to hit and 1d6 for damage regardless of weapon.

The other dice (d4, D8, d12, etc) are mostly confined to the random monster charts. You can play OD&D pretty much with a d6 and d20.

The third books has rules on how to use the outdoor survival board for wilderness adventures.

OD&D put a real premium on players figure stuff out for themselves as their characters. It is written as an expansion to the fantasy supplement and the man to man rules of Chainmail.

The Greyhawk supplement is where OD&D start making the trip into becoming AD&D and Basic D&D. Different classes have different dice for HD, weapons now do different damage. Monsters have number of attacks and different damage. Thieves make an appearance. Paladins do as well.

Blackmoor is a bit wonky and the weakest of the OD&D supplements. Monk and Assassin I think are here.
Eldritch Wizardry is better and has artifacts and various high level goodies. Druids appear here.

Swords and Sorcery replaces chainmail as the miniature rules for D&D. It is related to chainmail and while limited to use for a character based game people used to clarify the OD&D combat rules particularly initiative, the turn sequence and spells.

http://www.knights-n-knaves.com
http://odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi

are places to go to read about the OD&D rules.

Quote from: jibbajibbaBrontosaurus is not a real dinosaur

Yeah, but apatosaurus doesn't sound as good. Plus, everyone's heard of brontosaurus, even the people who know they didn't exist. ;)

In my book Brontosaurus is still a dinosaur and Pluto is still a planet.  Stupid scientists think they can tell me what's what!  :)

Thanks for all the advice, mah bruthas!  (And, uh, sistahs, too, in case some of ya are ladies.)

Really I shoulda said, "Bring me the head of the OD&D that Jeff Rients keeps talking about!", because that's kind of what I meant.  I prefer print to .pdf in 99% of cases, but I must admit I am tempted.

Quote from: VBWyrdeI wonder how much mine are worth?  I have the original magical three (Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasure, Wilderness Adventures), as well as a copy of Chainmail.  All are in good condition, except that the first owner, my pal, wrote some stuff in pencil on some of the pages in a couple of the books.  Well, I can't complain though - he gave them to me for free back in 1978 so I could use them as a base for the rules for my world.   I've held on to them somehow over all these years.   Chainmail, btw, IIRC is in pretty much mint condition.   I also have the original Blackmoor book.  Anyone have a bead on what they might be worth?

I'll have you know that my conscience wrestled me to the ground and stood on my head until greed surrendered.

I saw a first-printing D&D brown box go for $2500 on Ebay about a year ago.

Chainmail second edition, marigold cover, about $400.

Me, I have a copy of Warriors of Mars, near mint. :D

Quote from: Old GeezerI'll have you know that my conscience wrestled me to the ground and stood on my head until greed surrendered.

I saw a first-printing D&D brown box go for $2500 on Ebay about a year ago.

Chainmail second edition, marigold cover, about $400.

Me, I have a copy of Warriors of Mars, near mint. :D

Holy Bananna Flakes!

Quote from: VBWyrdeI wonder how much mine are worth?  I have the original magical three (Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasure, Wilderness Adventures), as well as a copy of Chainmail.  All are in good condition, except that the first owner, my pal, wrote some stuff in pencil on some of the pages in a couple of the books.  Well, I can't complain though - he gave them to me for free back in 1978 so I could use them as a base for the rules for my world.   I've held on to them somehow over all these years.   Chainmail, btw, IIRC is in pretty much mint condition.   I also have the original Blackmoor book.  Anyone have a bead on what they might be worth?

There's a white bookset on Ebay now. Still 5 days of bidding left, Highest bid right now $60...

Chainmail $30-75 depending on where you sell it. Ditto that for the other supplements.

Re,

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Well, I have the RC, but with all these different editions and stuff I'm not sure just which OD&D I have, see?

This was one of the last editions of 0D&D published in 1991, and actually probably the best. This one included skills and weapon mastery which was cleaned up a bit and later added to 3rd edition as skills, as well as just a ton of other good stuff that was once houserules that made it into print, with a plentiful amount of optional rules as well, stuff on adventuring and strongholds, magic item design, and a nice basic spell design mechanic.
It was all of D&D in one book, not much fluff, loaded with crunch.  It's the only complete version of D&D I know that you can play using just one rulebook.

Now hang on a second, RC is not OD&D. Even the Basic sets are quite a bit different, especially if you're just comparing the White/Wood box set.

Contained within this thread are links to several guides for the perplexed:

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6098

Somebody, somewhere (either here or at TBP) posted a link to Gygax's house-rules for OD&D.  However, I can't find that post now...

Anybody have it?

Thanks!  :)

Quote from: GameDaddyThis was one of the last editions of 0D&D published in 1991, and actually probably the best.

Since I see the term being used to refer to the Rules Compendium, I'll just throw a caution in here that the term "OD&D" usually only refers to the old White Box/Brown Box books.  The ones you used with Chainmail.

The blue/red box style of self-contained games that went on to become compiled into the Rules Compendium are usually referred to as "Basic D&D" or "BD&D".  They were a different edition than OD&D (and played quite differently) - like AD&D, except they developed along a different path.

I'm not trying to be pedantic (well, ok, maybe a little) so much as avoid any confusion for people who aren't familiar with those earlier editions (I've been playing D&D since around 1983, and only recently learned the differences between some of the early editions - like white box, blue box, etc).

EDIT: Elliot already scooped me.  D'oh!

Quote from: AkrasiaSomebody, somewhere (either here or at TBP) posted a link to Gygax's house-rules for OD&D.  However, I can't find that post now...

Anybody have it?

Thanks!  :)

This might help: http://robert.infogami.com/Gygax_OD&D_2005

Quote from: Elliot WilenThis might help: http://robert.infogami.com/Gygax_OD&D_2005

Cool.  Thanks! :)

Quote from: jgantsSince I see the term being used to refer to the Rules Compendium, I'll just throw a caution in here that the term "OD&D" usually only refers to the old White Box/Brown Box books.  The ones you used with Chainmail.

Meh... The Red and the Blue boxsets where considered 0D&D as well. From page 5 of the Rules Cyclopedia:

The D&D Cyclopedia is as accurate a name you could want for this book. 'Cyclopedia' is an encyclopedia, and this encyclopedia is an encyclopedia of all major D&D rules.

The book is intended to be a reference volume for those who already play the D&D game. You'll find it much more convenient to look up a specific rule here than in earlier versions of the game. Just about everything appearing in the boxed sets is here-- but in a more convenient format. For example, all the game's spells are in one place, and the details of creating a fighter class character in one location.

However, though this book is aimed at the experienced user, it is possible to learn to play the D&D game from these pages. The Cyclopedia lacks many of the examples and the patient explanation you'll find in the Dungeons and Dragons boxed sets, but you can still learn to play from these rules.

I would add it's one of the only D&D books with a really decent table of contents, and one of the largest indexes ever published for quick lookups, In my opinion it was the last release, of what we know of as basic D&D or 0D&D. Less fluff, more crunch.

Quote from: jgantsI think I chuckled the hardest at the part where the reviewer was complaining about the expensive $10 buy-in price.  :D

OD&D was fucking expensive. Running an 1974 --> 2007 conversion on the Inflation Calculator (http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi), you get $46.19 for your ten 1974 bucks. :eek:

Quote from: Old GeezerI'll have you know that my conscience wrestled me to the ground and stood on my head until greed surrendered.

I saw a first-printing D&D brown box go for $2500 on Ebay about a year ago.

Chainmail second edition, marigold cover, about $400.

Me, I have a copy of Warriors of Mars, near mint. :D

You also mentioned owning a playtest version of OD&D some time back. I suppose that would be even more of an "out of my cold, dead hands, with a crowbar" item? :cool:

Quote from: GameDaddyMeh... The Red and the Blue boxsets where considered 0D&D as well.

By whom?

Yeah, I have to agree with Elliot.  The quote doesn't even support the assertion - at best it seems to support the idea that RC is a compilation of BD&D rules/Basic sets/etc. But I've never seen it referred to as a compilation that includes OD&D....

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Thanks for all the advice, mah bruthas!  (And, uh, sistahs, too, in case some of ya are ladies.)

Really I shoulda said, "Bring me the head of the OD&D that Jeff Rients keeps talking about!", because that's kind of what I meant.  I prefer print to .pdf in 99% of cases, but I must admit I am tempted.

Ahh, well. I have one white bookset remaining, complete with all the supplements, chainmail, and swords & spells, however they are not for sale, but you might still see them dog-eared worn books in play at one of your favorite midwest gaming conventions.

Acaeum keeps a price list for these treasures here, it is good to have if you plan on insuring your collection...
Master Index of D&D Books (http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/rulebooks.html)

You can find most of these good books regularly up for sale on Ebay, the white boxed set I mentioned yesterday for 60 is now at $124 here:

74 White Box D&D set (http://cgi.ebay.com/TSR-D-D-1974-ORIGINAL-RULES-WHITE-BOX-OCE_W0QQitemZ220207879474QQihZ012QQcategoryZ44112QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Just the core white bookset, without the box and reference encounter sheets for $15.50 available:
Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/RPG-D-D-original-3-rulebooklets-1974-GARY-GYGAX_W0QQitemZ190204543645QQihZ009QQcategoryZ2545QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m124)

there is another for $500 as well on Ebay... a white Boxed set!!!

and... no white boxed sets currently available at Noble Knight Games, however Greyhawk, Blackmore, Gods, Demi-gods & Heroes are available
Here (http://www.nobleknight.com/ViewProducts.asp_Q_ProductLineID_E_2137419089_A_ManufacturerID_E_1_A_CategoryID_E_12_A_GenreID_E_)

you can try New World comics and games in Oklahoma City
New World (http://www.newworldcomics.net/)

and uh...
Games Plus in Mount Prospect (Chicago) Illinois
Games Plus (http://www.games-plus.com/games-plus/auction-full.htm)

and...
Castle Perilous in Carbondale, IL (SIU -- longtime game haven)
Castle Perilous (//www.castleperilous.com)

and...
Titan Games (Now a NobleKnight subsidiary) in Michigan has a copy of Swords & Spells available for $30 and a wide ranging selection of early TSR D&D books available at
Titan Games (http://www.titangames.com/products/role-playing-games?pMfg=TSR)

Troll & Toad in Kentucky has a good collection of basic D&D stuff. They run the auction at Origins every year now and may have some finer out of print books not currently listed on the website, might be worth a phone call.
Troll & Toad (http://www.trollandtoad.com/Dungeons-&-Dragons-RPG/1615-922p1n10.html)

Most of these stores I have visited at one time or another and they always seemed to have out of print books.

good luck with that!

Quote from: MelanOD&D was fucking expensive. Running an 1974 --> 2007 conversion on the Inflation Calculator (http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi), you get $46.19 for your ten 1974 bucks. :eek:

Yeah tell me about it. I had to mow like six lawns to come up with the $12 for the original white bookset back in 78, took me the better part of two months of weekends back in 78, and I had to mow my house lawn every weekend as well...

Heh,

while looking around for more 0d&d/basic stuff came across this copy of chainmail (3rd edition) available for $5 plus shipping

Chainmail (http://cgi.ebay.com/RPG-AD-D-CHAINMAIL-original-rules-3rd-ed-GARY-GYGAX_W0QQitemZ190204542362QQihZ009QQcategoryZ2545QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

He Doc - he has a link to Games Plus which is not far from me.  If you do hook one up there, let me know if you need any facilitation (purchase, ship for nothing, etc.); though I'm sure if you do, they'll take care of you - great folks over there.

Hell, I'll be driving through parts of Indiana next weekend - so...

Opp... Found Troll & Toads 0D&D section... White booksets in stock for
$200-$400 and supplements are averaging $50-$120 available here:
Troll & Toad (http://www.trollandtoad.com/Dungeons-&-Dragons-RPG/1513-922p1n10.html)

Uh...

...lemme wait until there's money stickin' out of my butt.

So anybody got a rough estimate? I mean, here's Game Dady saying Troll Lord has them for 200 - 400 (white box), but I've seen that e-bay linked earlier that had it at $500 as the current high bid.  So which is it?

Here's why I ask - cause the next question for me is how much you, Doc, might be willing to spend.  If you care to divulge, whether here or in PM, I can check with my buddy if he wants to part with his.  If the real price is, say $200 and you're willing to pay $150 - he just might do it to avoid having to go through the e-bay thing.

I'm not promising anything, but he's been on me lately about helping him get rid of his stuff - of course for a trade of first pick on the 1e stuff (I don't have the cash for anything else...).

James, the $500 figure is terribly inflated by the death of Gary.  I don't follow the collector scene that closely but for pre-Original Collector's Edition $150 to $200 is much more typical.

Quote from: James J SkachSo anybody got a rough estimate? I mean, here's Game Dady saying Troll Lord has them for 200 - 400 (white box), but I've seen that e-bay linked earlier that had it at $500 as the current high bid.  So which is it?

That's Troll & Toad, not Troll Lords.

Troll & Toad is an auction/wholesaler in Kentucky.

Troll Lords are game designers and publishers in Arkansas.

The Ebay sets usually end up going for between $120 and $160, but they might be going for a bit more these days in light of recent events

Quote from: GameDaddyThat's Troll & Toad, not Troll Lords.

Troll & Toad is an auction/wholesaler in Kentucky.

Troll Lords are game designers and publishers in Arkansas.

The Ebay sets usually end up going for between $120 and $160, but they might be going for a bit more these days in light of recent events

Ummm...I know the difference; Troll Lord Games on the mind given..ahem...recent events...

For those prices, frankly, I ain't innersted.  Maybe it's .pdfs after all.

So -- change of pace:  How different is this


from this


and/or this

?

Doc, see the link I posted earlier.

I don't know about the Holmes version but the Moldvay & Mentzer (purple & red) versions differ most notably in how Magic Users work with spellbooks, spell acquisition, and spell research.

I think I like the Mentzer magic approach better on the whole (it's closer to AD&D and also how I like to think magic ought to work, given the "Vancian" paradigm), but other than that I prefer Moldvay.

I can elaborate if necessary, but check those links first. There's also been a good amount of discussion on Dragonfoot about it IIRC.

Holmes (the blue one) caps off at level 2, doesn't it? And unlike for the Red and Purple there was no expansion set. Well, there was, AD&D, to which it's much closer than the other two IIRC.

If this is right, then you want to get either Red or Purple, Doc. Or retire your guy at L2.

I've played Holmes - if you add Meepo's Companion rules you can take it to level 6 but there's a great thread on Dragonsfoot about just playing Holmes as it is (up to level 3)

Jeff Rients has a link on his blog about nu-retro games (anyone played his dungeon - it's the dog's bollocks!)

I'm playing AbD&D - it's mental !

The Red Box (Elmore cover, Mentzer editing, 1983) spends a lot of time on making sure the newbies know how to play.

The Pink Box (Otus cover, Moldvay edit, 1981) is probably the clearest presentation for someone who already knows how to play.

The Blue Box (Holmes Edit, 1978) is most like OD&D and a proto-AD&D and rough in some spots but because of the wide monster selection is probably the easiest set to go it alone with.

These books are way more compatible than any three editions of AD&D.  I've run modules written for one set using the rules found in another set without blinking.  Personally, I find Mentzer the least inspiring of the three, because even when it came out in 1983 it felt like he was talking down to me, and I was only 10 at the time.  But rules-wise the differences between it and Moldvay are of not much real interest when the dice are hitting the table.

Short answer: You can't really go wrong with any of these three sets.  Anyone who says otherwise is really splitting hairs.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!For those prices, frankly, I ain't innersted.  Maybe it's .pdfs after all.

The OD&D core set PDFs print out fine but work best with recent versions of Adobe Acrobat Reader. I printed out a set, put them in a binder with some FAQs & commentary (http://www.philotomy.com/) + a cleaned up printout of the Judges Guild Ref sheets PDF. :cool:

If you get OD&D core set on PDF IMO don't print the reference sheets file in the order the file has (booklet?). I wound up printing a page a side with my own ordering, chargen first and ending with the treasure charts.

If you've not already done so, download the free Supplement II - Blackmoor (http://www.jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/D&D%20-%20Supplement%202%20-%20Blackmoor%20(TSR2004).pdf) from Dave Arneson's site. :pundit: TONS of giant frogs & some gonzo sci-fantasy in the first published RPG adventure.

sidenote: Empire of the Petal Throne (http://robertdushay.home.mindspring.com/Tekumel/EPTreview.html) (EPT), is an early (1975) OD&D variant & setting. Available as a nice PDF or print. While the rules aren't pure OD&D it's a nice supplement & helps clarify some points IMO. I am biased though. :pundit:

A question about the PDFs -- I read a few RPGNow reviews that indicated that the PDFs weren't scans of the classic books, but were actually OCRs. This struck me as odd; after all, if you can scan the book and have the scanner 'read' the text and convert it to a text file, why not just scan the page as a PDF?

At any rate, the reviews indicate that the OCR scan mis-read a few words, resulting in some confusing typos that weren't caught by the editor(s).

Can anyone verify any of this? I'd like to pick these manuals up, but only if I'm getting actual scans of the actual book.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!So -- change of pace:  How different is this
from this
and/or this
?

Not very. All cover roughly the same ground with a slightly different focus. I don't think Mentzer came with a separate module but has some starter adventures in the books.

Mentzer Basic (the B of BECMI) is two books, players' and DM's with Elmore illustrations and very good for complete newbies. It looks and reads the best of the three. Like jrients I initially passed on it because by the time it came out I was into AD&D and this was a bit *too* basic & while the Elmore art is very good, it's not as "weird".

Moldvay Basic (the B of B/X) is a single hole punched book with mainly Otus artwork (i.e. "weird") and is designed for a game that ends at lower levels, which makes no difference for just the Basic sets.

Holmes Basic single book, the smallest of the three & the closest to OD&D w/ some unique quirks, with a very good monster set. Very playable though it doesn't read as good, especially to newbies. With the addition of Meepo's companion this could easily be a "full" RPG. Artwork ranges from pretty good (esp. Sutherland) to downright cartoony. I'm biased on this one because I started with this set. :pundit:

Holmes has the most OD&D feel + some AD&D & unique quirks to it. Moldvay is very lost world meets Weird Tales (esp. if combined with Cook Expert & the module X1). Mentzer is a very good polished starter.

note: Labyrinth Lord is a free retro-clone of Moldvay Basic & Cook Expert (B/X). It's rather good, but it's not quite the same thing. It's worth reading Moldvay's own writing (esp. the great introduction) & looking at some of Otus' best artwork.

Quote from: Casey777If you've not already done so, download the free Supplement II - Blackmoor from Dave Arneson's site. :pundit: TONS of giant frogs & some gonzo sci-fantasy in the first published RPG adventure.

DUDE.  Free, legal .pdf?  I'm on it.  Thanks, man!

Quote from: RChandlerA question about the PDFs -- I read a few RPGNow reviews that indicated that the PDFs weren't scans of the classic books, but were actually OCRs.

OCR makes a PDF file *much* smaller than an image scan, searchable and you can copy / paste bits of the text directly from the PDF. Which can be very useful. YMMV.

The OD&D core set PDFs are OCR'd* but have the original images intact. I don't have originals to compare to, but the OD&D core set pdf seems ok enough (and it's not like the actual set didn't have errata, % Liar anyone?) and it has been revised.

The Empire of the Petal Throne PDF is not OCR'd and is a clean image scan. EPT's accent marks etc. made OCR work much more difficult so the PDF prep person decided not to release an OCR version at this time.


* the supplements were scanned years earlier by different people but are IIRC also OCR'd; the version of Blackmoor on Arneson's site seems to be a different scan but is also OCR'd

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!DUDE.  Free, legal .pdf?  I'm on it.  Thanks, man!

You're welcome. Others helped me get into this stuff, so I do my bit in turn. :)

The Blackmoor PDF is also a good, free intro to how OD&D looks, right down to the disorganized monster listings. :keke: Encounter Critical isn't far from this. :hehe:

Quote from: Casey777Encounter Critical isn't far from this. :hehe:

Funny, I was thinking the same thing as I looked at Blackmoor.

What's meepo?

Meepo is a Dragonsfoot poster, Rabbit. Tsk.

So Holmes Basic is very close to OD&D? That's the book I started D&D with.

Quote from: Elliot WilenWhat's meepo?

Meepo's Holmes Companion (http://meepodm.googlepages.com/holmes.pdf) (A Level 4-9 Rules Expansion for TSR's 1978 D&D Basic Set)

Didn't have the link handy when posting & was in a rush. A good poster, and posts on more than Dragonsfoot.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityHolmes (the blue one) caps off at level 2, doesn't it? And unlike for the Red and Purple there was no expansion set. Well, there was, AD&D, to which it's much closer than the other two IIRC.

All 3 of those Basic Sets end at Level 3. While there's no "Holmes Expert", Cook Expert has a little summary of Moldvay Basic in it + notes on what to do if you started with Holmes Basic. I went from Holmes Basic to Cook Expert with no problems as a kid. And these days you can use Meepo's pdf too. :cool:

While Holmes Basic does have some AD&Disms, how much depends on which printing :raise: , for example, IIRC earlier ones have the original 3 alignments instead of AD&D's. There's some analysis online at Knights & Knaves Alehouse and at the Acaeum.

Meepo's expanded the Companion to level 9 from level 6 !!!

Cheers Casey  :D

Moldvay rules!  (Even though I started with Holmes...)

Quote from: Elliot Wilen...
I don't know about the Holmes version but the Moldvay & Mentzer (purple & red) versions differ most notably in how Magic Users work with spellbooks, spell acquisition, and spell research...

Also, Thief abilities are somewhat better in the Moldvay Basic rules iirc.  However, this doesn't become noticeable until you get to the Expert levels (4-14).  Thief abilities pretty much 'top out' in the Moldvay/Cook Basic/Expert D&D rules at level 14.  In contrast, thief abilities progress very slowly in the Mentzer BECMI rules, since they don't 'max out' until level 36.  (Er ... I hope that made sense.)

Quote from: Sacrificial LambSo Holmes Basic is very close to OD&D? That's the book I started D&D with.

Yes. It even has the same wonderful forward by Gary Gygax, the ending of which was recently posted on Mike Mearls' blog (http://mearls.livejournal.com/145570.html). :cool:

Holmes Basic is almost like Holmes' houseruled OD&D with bits from some of the OD&D supplements (thief, some spells, etc.), his own campaign, and likely outside bits like the Perrin Conventions* (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3269) with Gary Gygax having final approval and adding in some teasers for the then still in progress AD&D.

The monster selection has creatures with HD well over 3 and the treasure list is pretty thorough esp. when you consider a +1 sword was rather powerful back then. With Meepo's Companion it's very cool, though these days I see it similar to EPT, a good aid to interpreting OD&D.

And it has that cool drawing of a lizardman with a lizard on his lizard helmet, riding a giant lizard. Which you could play as a PC! :keke: Something not possible under AD&D. :(

* these are Steve Perrin's houserules for OD&D and are likely why Holmes Basic has initiative by DEX and seem to have been a key factor in Perrin being hired for Runequest. :pundit:

I was going to suggest the Blackmoor supplement as a demo of what to expect of the od&d pdfs, but I see I have been beaten to the punch. :D

Unless you are seriously hating pdf, I suggest getting the pdfs of the od&d books.  $6 for all three books, I think!

I bought the pdfs recently (as well as the first supplement) and am enjoying reading through them, comparing the rules as written to later versions and to how we used to play basic/AD&D and AD&D2nd.

There are a lot of interesting differences between od&d and the basic/expert sets.  For example, ability scores in od&d don't do much other than give you an experience point bonus or penalty.  So rolling 3d6 in order for your stats and getting low numbers isn't as harrowing.  There are also only three classes (fighting man, magic user, cleric).

Also note that od&d is basically a complete game, whereas the red box basic set only covers levels 1 through 3 I think?

od&d seems to assume you will have tons of followers and hirelings accompanying your characters.

The od&d rules are very sketchy (I don't mean that in a negative way, maybe sketch-like is a better word).  For example, there is no initiative system and combat is basically a couple of charts you use to compare armor class/hit dice and levels to get a target number.

Monsters basically have a handful of stats with a brief description and any gameplay notes.  The stats themselves are organized in chart form and take up only a couple of pages.

od&d as presented in the original three books doesn't have a lot of the weird Gygaxian D&D stuff in it, though it does have the Vancian fire and forget spell system, levels, hit points, armor class, etc.  A lot of the stuff that I think of when I think of D&D was introduced in the first supplement, Greyhawk.  The second supplement, Blackmoor, is not as useful I think but for the price of FREE how can you pass it up?  Blackmoor introduces two classes that, while I am nostalgic about them, I realize sort of are unnecessary.  Any character that is clever (and chaotic) enough can be as assassin, why have a class for it?

I think od&d would really suit you well Dr. Rotwang, knowing how much you seem to enjoy C&C and T&T.  I think you would get a kick out of reading through the books and you might even like how light the game is compared to even C&C.

The PDFs are scanned well and I would think they would print pretty well too, if you really want to have a hard copy.