Quote from: Christopher Brady;892089What if the City's priorities were what was what makes it odd.

Good idea!
I'd been thinking also about Mayfair's Underground game and its system for reflecting the PCs actions on their neighborhoods. That the city is a bit 'Azathoth' (blind idiot god) in its actions/defenses, but if the PCs can keep the peace on their turf it will remain 'stable' or even assist them somehow.
Your idea would mean 'stable' is something different depending on when/where you go.

Quote from: Ravenswing;891899And the games themselves aren't?

The influence of WoD on RPG writing has been nothing short of pervasive. If D&D wasn't top dog in the industry, I think we'd have gotten flooded with White Wolf heartbreakers by now.

QuoteAnyway, take a shot at Emma Bull's Finder, which very much isn't.

I like Emma Bull, and Charles De Lint, both of whom do some great Urban Fantasy. I also liked GURPs: Cabal and Unknown Armies, both of which stand head and shoulders above WoD insofar as the "secret supernatural societies living among you" premise.

And I wish they weren't in the minority in comparison to stuff like True Blood.

Quote from: daniel_ream;892087I don't think that describes Clive Barker's _Books of Blood_, _Cabal_, Simon Green's _Nightside_ series or Charles de Lint's _Newport_ books.  Although many of those were inspirations for the oWoD.

Books of Blood are flat out horror.  There's not much of any aspect that could be called "urban fantasy" to them. Cabal (which is the one Nightbreed was based on IIRC? Havent read Barker since my teens in the 90s) could be construed as such, , I suppose. It was kinda like X-men with the "metaphor" turned up to 11 though.  Thinking on it, I never really thought "hey that was a book about monsters living in our society", just "that was a book about being gay." Don't know Simon Green, and mentioned De Lint already, but obviously things predating the WoD aren't WoD fanfic.

Quote from: TristramEvans;892101Books of Blood are flat out horror.

Vampires and werewolves aren't? Yes, yes, I'm being facetious, but if Kult is urban fantasy, then _Books of Blood_ surely is - since much of Kult is taken directly from Barker's work.

QuoteThere's not much of any aspect that could be called "urban fantasy" to them.

This has more to do with the term "urban fantasy", like "high fantasy", losing its original meaning in favour of a shrivelled and more narrow definition.  "Urban fantasy" shouldn't be synonymous with WoD, nor even supernatural noir, but it's become so.  I'm not about to run down the various short stories in B0B and point out the implied existence of secret supernatural societies in an urban setting in them; that exercise is left to the reader.

Quotejust "that was a book about being gay."

You can read that into the movie if you really work at it; the book not so much.  Since monsters == persecuted gay people is a lazy and common trope it's easy to assume that, but that's really not the subtext. It really is exactly what it appears to be: a work that explores "what if the monsters were the heroes of the story?"

QuoteDon't know Simon Green

Harry Dresden done by somebody who isn't an RPG geek.

Quotebut obviously things predating the WoD aren't WoD fanfic.

My point is that there's a lot of urban fantasy that is not well-described as "WoD fanfic", although if you want to lump paranormal romance in there I'll concede that the percentage is over 99%.

Quote from: daniel_ream;892122Vampires and werewolves aren't? Yes, yes, I'm being facetious, but if Kult is urban fantasy, then _Books of Blood_ surely is - since much of Kult is taken directly from Barker's work.

Nah, Kult is horror as well.

QuoteThis has more to do with the term "urban fantasy", like "high fantasy", losing its original meaning in favour of a shrivelled and more narrow definition.

I fight that impulse.

Keeps me constantly busy online.

QuoteYou can read that into the movie if you really work at it; the book not so much.  Since monsters == persecuted gay people is a lazy and common trope it's easy to assume that, but that's really not the subtext. It really is exactly what it appears to be: a work that explores "what if the monsters were the heroes of the story?"

It was veryVERY obvious subtext to me as an ignorant teenager in the 90s. Its really the only significant thing I remember about the book. Thats great if you can enjoy the story without seeing it.

QuoteHarry Dresden done by somebody who isn't an RPG geek.

Don't know who that is either.

QuoteMy point is that there's a lot of urban fantasy that is not well-described as "WoD fanfic", although if you want to lump paranormal romance in there I'll concede that the percentage is over 99%.

six of one , half a dozen of the other

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;892061Here is my very, very basic pitch.

Welcome to Goth Emo Punk World (or GEMPW for short). GEMPW is just like our real world, only more goth and emo and stuff.

There's not a single element here that requires the development of a separate setting/game to work. Everything you've just described wouldn't take much work, really - merely a tweak or a small injection to the background of already written setting or a campaign.

With that in mind:



^ It's pretty much your idea + comedy.



^ It's Chill's successor, a very well done framework for monster of the week+investigators. Go wild.



^ Another framework, it features non-human PCs and pretty much everything you describe sans emo stuff.


And of course, there's always Call of Cthulhu.

Quote from: Simlasa;892074A mess of retro kids joining gangs while also being moody, suicidal loners. OK.
Thor vs. Zeus in the middle of Union Square while Baba Yaga snacks down on a schoolbus full of 4th graders and dragons roost on the rooftops.
There's not going to be much city left for it to fill the 'urban' requirement. It's basically Rifts... or Armageddon if you know that setting. Kitchen sink apocalypse. OK.

No rules means no shape... just a big shapeless mess that eats itself. OK.

So a big shapeless mess that is eating itself for no reason. OK. Azathoth!

So Azathoth is invisible. OK.

So the suicidal loner gang kids wander randomly across the surface of invisible Azathoth, emoting randomly.

I don't know that I'd call it generic... just formless. It's everything and nothing. The whole encyclopedia soaked in all 31 flavors and dragged through a Vegas buffet.

Quote from: Opaopajr;892075The most important thing about creativity is choosing what you are NOT going to do. Without boundaries, paralysis; without boundaries, scattered energies and no audience connection (even if it's an audience of one, the author alone).

So... it's a kitchen sink world, with petulant and angsty teen melodrama as a major mood factor. And then it's everything to everybody so no one's left out  -- which means it's nothing to everybody because nothing stands out.

Painting in a palette with all the colors known, then mixed together, in all perspectives and styles simultaneously, is a muddied incoherent mess. SOMEONE MUST BE ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN. No definition, no character, no interest.

Keep going... you need to make tougher decisions than this.

Quote from: Sergeant Brother;892082Once again, it sounds like the setting you want is so open ended that it isn't really a setting. There are no set abilities for monsters, all monsters potentially exist, there is no monster culture.

Since it sounds like this will just be for your own campaign, you don't really even to write anything down, not that is that much to write. Just leave things as being mysterious for your players and throw what ever creatures at them that you like. Since there are no set abilities for any given creature type, you don't need rules for vampires, werewolves, gargoyles, ghosts, etc. Just come up with rules for each individual you introduce to the players as needed.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;892132There's not a single element here that requires the development of a separate setting/game to work. Everything you've just described wouldn't take much work, really - merely a tweak or a small injection to the background of already written setting or a campaign.

With that in mind:



^ It's pretty much your idea + comedy.



^ It's Chill's successor, a very well done framework for monster of the week+investigators. Go wild.



^ Another framework, it features non-human PCs and pretty much everything you describe sans emo stuff.


And of course, there's always Call of Cthulhu.

Good advice and good questions. The setting, largely undefined as yet, is intended to be a pastiche which may be easily dropped in otherwise setting lite games. In other words, distilling and tweaking from all those other well defined settings.

So to answer some of those questions:
The paranormal is low key, so there aren't destructive superhero battles happening in plain sight. Or if there are the collateral damage is passed off as gas explosions and similar mundane disasters.
The angsty melodrama is more parody than serious.*
Factions and secret cultures are a thing, but probably most relevant if the campaign is politically focused.

*For example, a party that consists of an ancient vampire cursed into the form of a doll, a lonely shoggoth looking for love, a meek timid kid with the power of heart, a dead ice hockey player stuck in the body of a professional ice skater, and a wisecracking talking skull.

It would require more time to hammer stuff out. Over and out.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;892509a meek timid kid with the power of heart

So:
discreet secrecy (like Cold War skirmishes, Masquerade, swept under rug),
lots of humor (parody),
factions & politics available (Craig's List of supernatural fixers & sweepers?).

Alright, so what is the Contrast? Is there any morality that matters at all? How hypocritical or muddied reality makes ideals?

And, what's the point of play here? What are the driving conflicts or opportunities?

Quote from: Opaopajr;892526So:
discreet secrecy (like Cold War skirmishes, Masquerade, swept under rug),
lots of humor (parody),
factions & politics available (Craig's List of supernatural fixers & sweepers?).

There's a sliding scale between comedy and horror, since some groups may prefer one over the other.

QuoteAlright, so what is the Contrast? Is there any morality that matters at all? How hypocritical or muddied reality makes ideals?

And, what's the point of play here? What are the driving conflicts or opportunities?

Depending on what rules you're using, you might have mechanics for sanity, corruption or psychotic breaks.

If the campaign is morally focused, it might be like Interview with the Vampire where characters struggle against their monstrous addictions. The characters might be jerks who callously toy with human lives and jockey with one another for power. Or it could be like Angel, where the characters fight against evil.

There are two moral forces in the cosmos (I'm referencing BTVS now). The "evil" great old ones and the "good" powers that be. The PTB are arrogant jerks with poor understanding of humanity, but they just happen not to be utterly indifferent to human suffering.

A little less noncommittal, please.

You can have comedy with your horror; it's been a staple for decades. If you want parody or farce it means a lot of the comedy is front-loaded and in-your-face. The horror comes over time whence the obvious humor recedes into the mundane.

Similarly, you need to embrace any bold choice you make for contrast between protagonists v. antagonists.

Sounds to me like the Angel version of CineUni would work for the type of setting you have in mind. Just have everyone design their own "demon" characters. For further inspiration the All Flesh Must Be Eaten line is generally compatible, and usually has new powers for building monsters. Any of which could then be used for PCs or antagonists.

Either that, or a supers system with street level (or slightly above) caps. M&M could work, as could a tweaked Aberrant. Just make sure the special effects for powers are all appropriately urban fantasy monster based.

Quote from: Opaopajr;892871A little less noncommittal, please.

You can have comedy with your horror; it's been a staple for decades. If you want parody or farce it means a lot of the comedy is front-loaded and in-your-face. The horror comes over time whence the obvious humor recedes into the mundane.

Similarly, you need to embrace any bold choice you make for contrast between protagonists v. antagonists.

I'm not committed. Sometimes I might want to play lighthearted and other times grimdark with tongue firmly in cheek.

So now I'm going to say a bit about the mythic history.

In the beginning, demons ruled the earth and made it a living hell. Then the stars went wrong and they lost their purchase on reality. Like housepets left to fend for themselves, humanity swiftly moved to claim a transient dominance. While the great old ones were gone, they left things behind that would continue to bedevil humanity. One example is science: modern science is wrong and the universe really runs on magic and the anthropic principle.

There are numerous self-styled illuminati with the goal of taking over the world. They have all failed due to a combination of simple logistics (it takes forever to get anything done, you can't trust anyone and oh god the paperwork) and overwhelming competition (there are like a bajillion conspiracies working at cross purposes).

The most common paranormal entities (and the magical underpinnings of reality) are spirits: spirits of nature, spirits of the dead, spirits of great emotional turmoil, spirits of goodness and light, etc. The most common way to encounter spirits is to accidentally offend them and invoke their wrath. Open an umbrella indoors and the spirit of the building will curse you, break a mirror and the mirror's spirit will curse you, trepass into a haunted abandoned hospital and the ghosts will terrorize you, etc.

More to come later.