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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: SHARK on May 08, 2020, 12:44:06 AM

Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 08, 2020, 12:44:06 AM
Greetings!

How do you determine the price of slaves in your campaign world? Different valuation factors go into such considerations, male and female, the slave's age, general health, as well as any intelligence, and special skills and knowledge. As well as fertility and beauty. That has to jack the prices up enormously.

Do you detail culture's various kinds of laws and customs regarding slaves?

How do player characters interact with such customs in your campaigns?

The addition of magic I think makes a number of enhancements to slavery especially profitable, not merely from the individual slave master's perspective, but most notably, in the overall effect on slavery within the community and culture itself.

Then, are there distinctions between say, a culture that is dominated by brutal Orc slave masters, dragging slaves into dark mines to toil forever, or breeding pits to be thrown into the breeding pits to breed hordes of Half Orc children, and something like ancient China or ancient India, not to mention cultures like ancient Greece, Rome, Carthage, and Persia.

I think there are many interesting culture details and adventures that can develop from such elements.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 08, 2020, 12:53:59 AM
Quote from: SHARK;1129243
Greetings!

How do you determine the price of slaves in your campaign world? Different valuation factors go into such considerations, male and female, the slave's age, general health, as well as any intelligence, and special skills and knowledge. As well as fertility and beauty. That has to jack the prices up enormously.

Do you detail culture's various kinds of laws and customs regarding slaves?

How do player characters interact with such customs in your campaigns?

The addition of magic I think makes a number of enhancements to slavery especially profitable, not merely from the individual slave master's perspective, but most notably, in the overall effect on slavery within the community and culture itself.

Then, are there distinctions between say, a culture that is dominated by brutal Orc slave masters, dragging slaves into dark mines to toil forever, or breeding pits to be thrown into the breeding pits to breed hordes of Half Orc children, and something like ancient China or ancient India, not to mention cultures like ancient Greece, Rome, Carthage, and Persia.

I think there are many interesting culture details and adventures that can develop from such elements.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I don't, mainly because slavery is something the bad guys engage in, but I might be interested on reading your take for a possible implementation in my totally not Conan game.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: RandyB on May 08, 2020, 08:41:47 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129245
I don't, mainly because slavery is something the bad guys engage in, but I might be interested on reading your take for a possible implementation in my totally not Conan game.

Here's one: slavery is not practiced along racial lines. Members of most or all races are, at any given time, both slaves and slave owners. Likewise for any slavers. Thus no race has any prominence in any role in the practice.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: oggsmash on May 08, 2020, 09:44:40 AM
I remember the mongoose publishing Conan rpg had a list price for slaves based on training, demand, etc.  If I used them I guess I would use that table and convert to relevant currency (conan main coinage was silver, as gold was closer to historic value, and rare)
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 08, 2020, 10:35:26 AM
You might consider the Roman latifundia as a model as well.

That being said: expect good-aligned PCs to take umbrage.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Jason Coplen on May 08, 2020, 10:59:22 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1129278
That being said: expect good-aligned PCs to take umbrage.

I'm going to be that guy and ask - why? Wouldn't that be more of a cultural thing? Wouldn't some good PCs not think poorly of slavery?  I barely remember a series I read as a teen where the PCs (best term for them) were all about freeing slaves, but they initially came from our world and had our sensibilities.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: RandyB on May 08, 2020, 11:05:32 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1129278
That being said: expect good-aligned PCs to take umbrage.


Quote from: Jason Coplen;1129281
I'm going to be that guy and ask - why? Wouldn't that be more of a cultural thing? Wouldn't some good PCs not think poorly of slavery?


Agreed. Unless you consider the whole of Western Civilization prior to 1800 to be uniformly evil.

Wait.... ;)
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Torque2100 on May 08, 2020, 11:19:14 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129245
I don't, mainly because slavery is something the bad guys engage in, but I might be interested on reading your take for a possible implementation in my totally not Conan game.

Same.  Slavery is generally viewed today as the ultimate evil.  I can think of worse fates, but to be in enslaved is definitely one of the worst things you can do to another human being.  I mean think about it: to kidnap them from their home and family, drag them away to some far off place, take their freedom away and make them do what you say or else.  Yeah, that's something that is best left within the purview of the bad guys for most groups.  Be sensitive to your players and respect boundaries, but it's a good default assumption that most modern people think slavery is pure evil.

That being said, for most of human history, slavery was just a reality of life.

So if your group is up for it, here are some pointers to keep in mind if you are going to run a setting where slavery is just an accepted part of human society EG the Hyborean Age:

1. NO SEX SLAVES
Putting this first because it's the big one. Most friction at the game table at slavery as a theme likely comes from an assumption that the DM is trying to push sexual themes.  The reality is that, 99.99999% of the time slaves will be used for hard labor.  In a pre-industrial setting like most DnD worlds the only way to really save yourself from doing hard labor is by having someone else do it for you.  Most slaves in your setting will be planting crops or scrubbing floors.  As for the ones who aren't, they're probably the educated slaves teaching the master's children or doing the master's finances.  You can hint at sexual slavery, but unless you are running the game for a very specific type of group, you're best leaving that bit "off screen" as it were.

2. Slaves are Expensive: A common cliche to show how evil the bad guys are is to show them murdering enslaved people left and willy-nilly and cackling with evil glee while they do it.  The truth is, any slaver in a slave based society who does this will likely end up poor.  Slavery, as mentioned above, is about labor.  Dead slaves can't work.  Maimed slaves can't work as well.  Even the most evil overlord is likely to know these things.  He's also likely to be aware of just what a huge investment each slave is.  Imagine everything that goes into clothing, feeding, housing and training a slave.  You've spent all of that gold on something you're just going to murder for speaking out of turn?  No.  Human psychology being what it is, the sunk costs are going to be on your mind at all times.  This goes double for less wealthy families who might only own one or two slaves.

3.  Masters are People To: Most people, the overwhelming majority of people, want to believe that they are basically good people. This includes people who directly exploit others like those who own slaves.  So most Masters are probably decent and polite to their slaves, especially those who are well behaved.  In fact some slaves may be considered part of the family, like a pet.  It might be a very, very hard pill to swallow for a modern audience, but most slave owners were not, in fact, remorseless, evil, barely human monsters.  It's a testament to our ability as humans to rationalize anything.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: oggsmash on May 08, 2020, 11:50:47 AM
Interestingly enough in the Hyborian age, Hyborian nations largely do not practice slavery, and Hot, educated, female sex slaves are the most expensive.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 08, 2020, 12:34:06 PM
Greetings!

Well, slaves are utilized for many different things, in various capacities and tasks. While slaves used for heavy labour is certainly significant, the assertion that "The reality is that 99.99999% of the time slaves will be used for hard labour" is quite ridiculous, and unfounded. The real fact of the matter is that slaves are heavily used for sex. I'm sorry if this makes some people squeamish, but it is the historical reality. In every siege and conquest of many cities--whether from the days of the ancient Roman Empire, to the hordes of Genghis Khan and the Mongols, plundering the enemies' women was always a primary motivation. Even later, for example, when the Jin hordes invaded northern China, as Historian Michael Woods notes in The Story of China, during the siege of the northern capital, the invading barbarians especially demanded thousands and thousands of women be turned over to them, the noble women, the women of the imperial family, the thousands of women dancers and musicians--all were to be handed over to the barbarians. Women were their *first priority*. Don't for a moment ever think that plundering conquered women isn't a primary priority, right next to gold.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 08, 2020, 02:54:12 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1129295
Greetings!

Well, slaves are utilized for many different things, in various capacities and tasks. While slaves used for heavy labour is certainly significant, the assertion that "The reality is that 99.99999% of the time slaves will be used for hard labour" is quite ridiculous, and unfounded. The real fact of the matter is that slaves are heavily used for sex. I'm sorry if this makes some people squeamish, but it is the historical reality. In every siege and conquest of many cities--whether from the days of the ancient Roman Empire, to the hordes of Genghis Khan and the Mongols, plundering the enemies' women was always a primary motivation. Even later, for example, when the Jin hordes invaded northern China, as Historian Michael Woods notes in The Story of China, during the siege of the northern capital, the invading barbarians especially demanded thousands and thousands of women be turned over to them, the noble women, the women of the imperial family, the thousands of women dancers and musicians--all were to be handed over to the barbarians. Women were their *first priority*. Don't for a moment ever think that plundering conquered women isn't a primary priority, right next to gold.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Perhaps, but in 99.99999% of cases involving RPGs, it won't be about 'accurate history', it'll be about entering the GM's magical realm.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 08, 2020, 02:58:42 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1129305
Perhaps, but in 99.99999% of cases involving RPGs, it won't be about 'accurate history', it'll be about entering the GM's magical realm.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Well, that's true, Ghostmaker!:D


Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Hakdov on May 08, 2020, 03:03:21 PM
You could argue that in a high magic setting like D&D usually has that magic makes slavery unnecessary.  Many slave jobs could be done by golems, undead, trained monsters, or permanent enchantments.

Also, as cheap as hirelings are in D&D, why bother with the expense of buying a slave?  They're cheaper to rent.  ;)
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: RandyB on May 08, 2020, 04:38:45 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1129295
Greetings!

Well, slaves are utilized for many different things, in various capacities and tasks. While slaves used for heavy labour is certainly significant, the assertion that "The reality is that 99.99999% of the time slaves will be used for hard labour" is quite ridiculous, and unfounded. The real fact of the matter is that slaves are heavily used for sex. I'm sorry if this makes some people squeamish, but it is the historical reality. In every siege and conquest of many cities--whether from the days of the ancient Roman Empire, to the hordes of Genghis Khan and the Mongols, plundering the enemies' women was always a primary motivation. Even later, for example, when the Jin hordes invaded northern China, as Historian Michael Woods notes in The Story of China, during the siege of the northern capital, the invading barbarians especially demanded thousands and thousands of women be turned over to them, the noble women, the women of the imperial family, the thousands of women dancers and musicians--all were to be handed over to the barbarians. Women were their *first priority*. Don't for a moment ever think that plundering conquered women isn't a primary priority, right next to gold.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1129305
Perhaps, but in 99.99999% of cases involving RPGs, it won't be about 'accurate history', it'll be about entering the GM's magical realm.

Quote from: SHARK;1129306
Greetings!

*Laughing* Well, that's true, Ghostmaker!:D


Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yup. Some historic realities don't make for effective gaming.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 08, 2020, 05:08:27 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129245
I don't, mainly because slavery is something the bad guys engage in, but I might be interested on reading your take for a possible implementation in my totally not Conan game.

Greetings!

Laughing*:D Not Conan games are awesome, brother!

Base Slave Value and Pricing
4,000 SP+1,000 to 4,000 SP; Base Value is thus 5,000 to 8,000 SP.

Percentile Dice Base Modifier
01-25%: +1,000
26-50%: +2,000
51-75%: +3,000
76-00%: +4,000

The Base Slave Value is primarily based on a scale assuming a basic labourer earns roughly 10 SP per day. Roughly 3600 SP per year. Evaluating the base values and price modifiers concerning slaves, most of the lower classes, working classes, and a substantial segment of any kind of crafting or middle class are unlikely to afford owning slaves. Some of course, on occasion, could make such an investment, though those members of these classes would be a decided minority. Far more likely, and prevalent, would be more prosperous professionals, higher placed officers, officials, merchants and farmers, as well as members of the upper echelons, the wealthy elite, merchant princes, great land owners, and the nobility. Such members of these social and economic levels would be more likely to afford a few slaves for domestic purposes, or for light duties, specialized labour, and so on, while more elite members would utilize dozens, hundreds, or thousands of slaves.

Base Value Modifiers

Human Slaves:
01-20%: Cultural Discount: -20% Base Value
21-75%: Standard Base Value
76-90%: +10% Base Value
91-00%: +20% Base Value

Similarly to barbarian humanoids below, different human groups and individuals evaluate different human slaves based on a number of variable factors, ranging from reputation, firsthand experience or knowledge, myths, and other emotional, economic, or even religious considerations. The DM can use a set value, or determine the base value modifier with a percentile dice roll on the table.

Barbarian Humanoid:
01-50%: Racial Discount: -25% Base Value
51-75%: Standard Base Value
76-90%: +10% Base Value
91-00%: +25% Base Value

Barbarian Humanoids can vary significantly in their price, highly variable to market trends, as well as numerous cultural attitudes and perceptions towards particular barbarian humanoid races. Race A may have deep suspicion towards slaves of race A, and hence embrace a distinct negative valuation of such slaves; while Race A and Race B may hold slaves of Race C are especially valuable, and so on. Such modifiers to the base value may thus vary widely depending on the individual slave merchant, what kinds of barbarian humanoid slaves are being sold, where or what markets the barbarian humanoids are being marketed, and then influenced by the knowledge of the attitudes towards such barbarian humanoids from prominent merchants within the particular region or location. Based on such considerations, the DM can simply set a base value modifier for such particular barbarian humanoids, or determine randomly by a percentile dice roll on the table.

Exotic Humanoid:
01-50%: Base Value +10%
51-75%: Base Value +25%
76-90%: Base Value +50%
91-00%: Base Value +100%

Exotic Humanoid are generally valued at premiums considerably higher than standard slave values, from a variety of exotic reasons and attitudes. Halflings, Half Elves, Elves, Half-Demons, Half Celestials, and particular animal-like humanoids can be especially valued for particular kinds of labour, specialized knowledge or craftsmanship, exotic sexual fetishes, or highly desired genetic traits provided to their offspring. The DM can set a particular value modifier for a special race of slave, or simply determine the value from a percentile roll on the table. While base value modifiers for exotic humanoids can be seen as being more stable market-wise, the prices for exotic humanoids can also shift based on the economy, region, or other factors.

Slave's Age Modifier
Young +125%
Adolescent +100%
Adult +20%
Mature Adult -50%
Old -75%

Young and Adolescent slaves are especially valued, as they can more easily be trained and acculturated to the yoke of obedience. In addition, they offer a lifetime of vigorous work and service, and are in the prime of health and potential fertility. Adult slaves are also highly valued, for their strength and fertility, as well as potential skills and learning, though are generally less valued than Young or Adolescent slaves. Mature Adult slaves decline significantly in value, as a reflection of all of the factors of labour, fertility, beauty, lifespan of effort, and capacity to be trained to obedience. Old slaves possess all of the negative factors of Mature Adults, while also being generally weaker, less vigorous, more prone to illness and disease, and distinctly less attractive and appealing.

Knowledge, Skills and Training
Labour Skills +10% Base Value
Crafting Skills +25% Base Value
Professional Knowledge and Skills +40% Base Value
Academic Knowledge +50% Base Value
Entertainer Skills +75% Base Value
Mystical Knowledge and Skills, Exotic Sexual Knowledge and Talents, or Special Social Status, +100% Base Value

Primary Slave Attribute Modifier
Below Average (Score of 8-9, or lower)*: Discount of -25% or more
Average (Score of 10-11): No Modifier
Above Average (Score of 12-13) +10% Base Value
(Score of 14-15) +25% of Base Value
(Score of 16-17) +50% of Base Value
(Score of 18, or higher)* Premium of +100% or more

The Primary Slave Attribute Modifier is focused on the outstanding features and attributes that a buyer seeks to have in a particular kind of slave. For example, a buyer seeking to purchase domestic slaves, for household service, sexual service, breeding, and entertainment, are certainly likely to value an attractive appearance and a higher Charisma. Buyers seeking hard physical labour, will certainly value a high Strength or possibly Constitution. Meanwhile, other buyers, seeking highly educated and skilled slaves, are certainly likely to seek out slaves with high Intelligence or perhaps Wisdom scores. *Note: Scores that are significantly lower in value, will bring an even steeper discount, while a score higher than 18 will surely increase the base value by a huge amount. Certainly, secondary attributes are also valued, and can also have a significant impact on the base value modifier, as also having, for example, multiple attribute scores that are higher or lower. Such influences of secondary or multiple attributes with negative or positive score bonuses should enhance or discount the base value modifier, as deemed appropriate by the DM. These additional considerations are certainly to be realized and appraised by any merchant offering the particular slave for sale.

These are some of the tables and guidelines that I use in my own Thandor Campaign. The tables are detailed in scope enough, to account for all kinds of different cultural and racial slaves, favoured social types, professions, and so on, as well as taking a variety of market forces and trends into consideration.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 08, 2020, 05:23:18 PM
Quote from: RandyB;1129321
Yup. Some historic realities don't make for effective gaming.

Greetings!

On occasion, my player groups have in the course of their adventures rescued one or more slaves from a villain, or otherwise gained slaves from winning a battle, and conquering an enemy city or a region of land. It's always provided amusement when I tell the players that the 10 slaves they rescued are worth 5,000 SP or 10,000 SP each. The philosophical debates really emerge when they have acquired 500, or 2,000 such valuable slaves.:D

I enjoy it when my players struggle with noble virtues and sweet, sweet greed.:D The conflicting arguments are hilarious as they argue and struggle to reach for some noble virtue and righteous and good morality, while calculating the considerable value in silver or gold such slaves can provide.:D

I like to chime in to them, "Remember, virtue is its own reward!":D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Pat on May 08, 2020, 06:51:18 PM
Why are you assuming the base value of a long term investment is the return you can expect over a 4 month period? That's absurdly short. The value of a slave is the amount of expected work over a lifetime, minus upkeep, and then adjusted for risk (death, recalcitrance, do-gooder PCs, etc.) and time-shifting (a sp invested should be worth more than a sp in hand, otherwise why invest?). If we use your valuations and assume 40 years of labor, a slave will produce about 144K sp worth of value in a lifetime. The base value would be less than that, but not 150 times less. Slaves with professional, artisan, or entertainment skills would be valued based on the market value of those skills instead. Also, it makes no sense to sell children for a premium over working age adults, because their peak labor is years away, and in the meantime their maintenance might be a net cost. The most valuable slaves, at least for slaves used in labor, would be healthy young adult men. Women at the height of fertility would also be high value. You're also not considering negative adjustments -- a slave known for being unruly, hurting other slaves, or just for being a drunk will be worth much less than expected. Racial prejudices and cultural preconceptions would heavily influence this.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 08, 2020, 07:17:57 PM
Greetings!

I also enjoy being inspired by historical accuracy. In my World of Thandor, for example, there are different styles of slavery. Various styles of slavery have a host of different standards, customs, and expectations, concerning both the slave, and the slave owner. Just like in our own real world history, there are many different facets and approaches to the institution of slavery, the relationships between slaves and their master, the relationships of slaves to society as a whole, the duration of slavery, whether limited, or lifelong, the customs involving whether slaves can marry, create families, and the status of slave's children. In real history, there are examples of generous and kind masters, that freed their slaves upon their death, in their wills. There are customs that allow slaves to own their own private property and wealth. Some slaves became wealthy in their own rights, and amassed great fortunes. Upon their being granted freedom, they went on to establish businesses and become even more wealthy and prosperous. There are also examples of masters "paying slaves"--providing them with monthly allowances as well as seasonal bonuses and donations for faithful and good service. Perhaps surprisingly, there are also examples of slaves that were granted their freedom, and yet they refused such, insisting on staying with their master or their mistress for their entire lives. Slaves have supervised lands, business, and holdings for their masters, and gained high trust. Other slaves raised their master's children, from the cradle to adulthood, as well as tutoring and educating them thoroughly. Also not surprisingly, many masters and mistresses alike, engaged in romantic and sexual relationships with especially favoured slaves. This oftentimes created particularly loyal and deep bonds of love and friendship. There are also instances where a slave and his family were granted freedom, and while embracing their status as free citizens--also chose to remain in the employment of their master, and made arrangements to continue living on their master's land, owning a house, and so on, proceeding to serve their master and their household much like they had always done in previous years. In other cultures, upon the death of a beloved master or mistress, some slaves chose to die in funeral ceremonies alongside their master, even though custom or law made no such requirement upon the slave to do so.

There are also customs of Contract Slavery, where a person voluntarily agrees to serve as a slave for a particular, specified time frame, typically 5, 7, 10, or 20 years, and some also being permitted to voluntarily serve for their whole lifetimes. There are cultures and customs where a slave woman serves as a concubine to her master, while the children she produces with her master enjoy a variety of rights and inheritance, as well as status--even though their mother was a slave. Countless numbers of women were eager to enter into such relationships, willingly serving as a slave for their entire lives, so that their children would enjoy forever a higher status than what their mother was born with.

And so it goes. Of course, slavery is often terrible, brutal, and wicked, but history shows that the institutions of slavery are not as simple as many modern people interpret, and in fact, there are very different approaches to slavery from many different cultures, and times. In some cases, "slave" was merely a title of status that kept the highest political rights beyond the salve, as well as many aspects of personal freedom, and yet, also provided security, resources, and a decidedly better life than many free peasants possessed, or members of the urban poor. I use many such elements to provide colour, details, and nuances to different cultures within the World of Thandor. Some cultures do not have slavery, at all. Meanwhile, other cultures do embrace slavery, though the institution of slavery is not monolithic and simple, but rather can be quite detailed, complex, and nuanced. Some cultures condemn slaves for life, while others attach a terrible stigma to the slave, even should they become free, and no longer a legally classed slave. While still others view the former slave as entirely free, worthy, and dignified, holding the same rights and privileges as any free person not born a slave. Within the campaign world, some slave cultures are horrible and brutal, while others are complex and relatively enlightened. Such different approaches to slavery and "Slave Cultures" create different tapestries for creating stories and adventures throughout the campaign world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 08, 2020, 07:22:02 PM
Quote from: Pat;1129335
Why are you assuming the base value of a long term investment is the return you can expect over a 4 month period? That's absurdly short. The value of a slave is the amount of expected work over a lifetime, minus upkeep, and then adjusted for risk (death, recalcitrance, do-gooder PCs, etc.) and time-shifting (a sp invested should be worth more than a sp in hand, otherwise why invest?). If we use your valuations and assume 40 years of labor, a slave will produce about 144K sp worth of value in a lifetime. The base value would be less than that, but not 150 times less. Slaves with professional, artisan, or entertainment skills would be valued based on the market value of those skills instead. Also, it makes no sense to sell children for a premium over working age adults, because their peak labor is years away, and in the meantime their maintenance might be a net cost. The most valuable slaves, at least for slaves used in labor, would be healthy young adult men. Women at the height of fertility would also be high value. You're also not considering negative adjustments -- a slave known for being unruly, hurting other slaves, or just for being a drunk will be worth much less than expected. Racial prejudices and cultural preconceptions would heavily influence this.

Greetings!

Hi Pat! Good questions! Well, I recall reading that a slave was often the price equivalent of anywhere from a third of a worker's yearly wages, to a whole year's worth of such wages. Thus, I derived the base value along those lines. I also figured that the more typical prices of slaves were kept relatively low, because the market was usually flooded with multitudes of cheaply priced slaves. Such forces seemed to be consistently present through much of the Roman Republic, and into the Roman Empire, for example.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Pat on May 08, 2020, 07:54:58 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1129337
Hi Pat! Good questions! Well, I recall reading that a slave was often the price equivalent of anywhere from a third of a worker's yearly wages, to a whole year's worth of such wages. Thus, I derived the base value along those lines. I also figured that the more typical prices of slaves were kept relatively low, because the market was usually flooded with multitudes of cheaply priced slaves. Such forces seemed to be consistently present through much of the Roman Republic, and into the Roman Empire, for example.
I suspect your memory is faulty. I'm not bothering with authoritative sources, but both these cite specific numbers from print references:
https://calvusguy.blogspot.com/2013/01/slavery-how-much-are-you-worth.html
https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/33968/what-was-the-median-price-for-a-slave-child-in-the-augustan-rome

The first mentions a male slave in Pompeii who was sold for 6,252 sesterces, and a female slave at the same time who sold for 2,400 sesterces in Britain. By comparison, the average annual income was 900 sesterces. And they specifically mention that's based on cultural assumptions that a slave will typically be freed in 10 years.

The second gives a range from 300 to 1200 drachmas (the high end being an adult male, presumably in their working prime), while fire fighters earned 150/year.

So that's two separate sources that value slaves at about 2 to 7 years worth of labor.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Zirunel on May 08, 2020, 08:19:30 PM
I think a good (or at least simple) rule of thumb for a capital purchase that generates income is, purchase price= 1 years gross revenue. Not net, gross. Not tech company that may be rising on a rocket where you may be in bubble territory but just some mundane reliable revenue generating asset. Obviously there can be a lot of difference in the details, and if you're buying something for reasons other than revenue then all bets are off but if your paying more than the asset's gross revenue in a year that's at least a warning you may possibly be paying too much.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 08, 2020, 08:20:11 PM
Quote from: Pat;1129340
I suspect your memory is faulty. I'm not bothering with authoritative sources, but both these cite specific numbers from print references:
https://calvusguy.blogspot.com/2013/01/slavery-how-much-are-you-worth.html
https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/33968/what-was-the-median-price-for-a-slave-child-in-the-augustan-rome

The first mentions a male slave in Pompeii who was sold for 6,252 sesterces, and a female slave at the same time who sold for 2,400 sesterces in Britain. By comparison, the average annual income was 900 sesterces. And they specifically mention that's based on cultural assumptions that a slave will typically be freed in 10 years.

The second gives a range from 300 to 1200 drachmas (the high end being an adult male, presumably in their working prime), while fire fighters earned 150/year.

So that's two separate sources that value slaves at about 2 to 7 years worth of labor.

Greetings!

Ahh, very nice, Pat! Thank you. Yes, it has been awhile. Hmmm. I should then change the base value by a multiplier of x5 to x7. On the low end, that would be 700x5=3,500 SP, and on the high end, 1,200x5=6,000. That's pretty cool, Pat. On a x7 scale, the base value would be 4900 (7x700) to 8400 (7x1200). Assuming a worker is making approximately 3,000 SP a year, that makes the base value of a slave one to two or three year's wages, before any modifiers. Adding modifiers would increase the final price substantially.

Edit: I changed the table to reflect a modified base value of 5,000 to 8,000 SP. Which serves as a base of a year and a half wages to three years, before the additional modifiers.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: David Johansen on May 08, 2020, 10:11:08 PM
I did have the one campaign where the slaves had basically taken over a kingdom over time and the trappings of slavery had become the trappings of afluence and power so the people walking around naked and in chains were actually the rich and powerful.  Even the word `slave` meant ruler in that culture.  But that was really, mostly a GM screw the players twist.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Pat on May 08, 2020, 10:37:11 PM
Quote from: SHARK;1129343
Ahh, very nice, Pat! Thank you. Yes, it has been awhile. Hmmm. I should then change the base value by a multiplier of x5 to x7. On the low end, that would be 700x5=3,500 SP, and on the high end, 1,200x5=6,000. That's pretty cool, Pat. On a x7 scale, the base value would be 4900 (7x700) to 8400 (7x1200). Assuming a worker is making approximately 3,000 SP a year, that makes the base value of a slave one to two or three year's wages, before any modifiers. Adding modifiers would increase the final price substantially.
I still think you're lowballing it. That's not a multiplier, it's years worth of basic labor. Converting that using your 3,600 sp/yr, the 4 male slaves in the two examples convert to roughly 24-29K sp apiece. The clever, home-born slave who speaks Greek is 48K, the girl of 8 years is 15K, the girl in bad repute is about 14K, the "cheap and worthless" slave is about 12K, the female on the fringes of the empire is about 10K, the boy is about 7K, and the presumably very young slave is about 3K.

Another source:
https://www.measuringworth.com/slavery.php
It's an analysis of slave prices in the US South, prior to the Civil War, so we can't directly compare values (slaves kept for life would be worth more than slaves in the Roman Empire, who are often given or able to purchase their freedom after a decade). But we can eyeball some of the charts for some basic data. Female slaves appear to worth about 80% the value of a male, peak age is 18-30, then decline about 10% by 40, 40% by 50, and 2/3rds by 60 (that would have to adjusted based on life expectancy). A chlid of 10 is worth about 50%, under 5 about 10%. Also has a good breakdown of contributing factors to the price: "A premium was paid if the slave was an artisan -- particularly a blacksmith (+55%), a carpenter (+45%), a cook (+20%), or possessed other domestic skills (+15%). On the other hand, a slave's price was discounted if the person was known to be a runaway (-60%), was crippled (-60%), had a vice such as drinking (-50%), or was physically impaired (-30%)." Note skills like being a blacksmith are probably more useful in the distant past than in the 18th or 19th centuries, whereas education was probably far more highly valued in Ancient Rome.

So (handwave)
That's drawing a lot of conclusions from limited data, but that's a hazard of trying to systematize things without doing too much research.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Spinachcat on May 09, 2020, 12:27:10 AM
There's real history and then there's gaming.

In history, obedient slaves was a thing.

In gaming, PCs rarely trust their paid hirelings. How much less would they trust a slave?

If obedient slaves is a cultural norm in the setting, then I could see the PCs becoming accustomed to the concept. However, I don't know how much players will be okay with that concept. Definitely one of those "discuss with the table in advance" issues, especially since slavery is definitely going to involve sex slavery.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 09, 2020, 12:56:37 AM
Quote from: Spinachcat;1129351
There's real history and then there's gaming.

In history, obedient slaves was a thing.

In gaming, PCs rarely trust their paid hirelings. How much less would they trust a slave?

If obedient slaves is a cultural norm in the setting, then I could see the PCs becoming accustomed to the concept. However, I don't know how much players will be okay with that concept. Definitely one of those "discuss with the table in advance" issues, especially since slavery is definitely going to involve sex slavery.

Greetings!

Hey my friend! Yeah, players have dealt with NPC slave owners in the campaign, and usually villains, that kind of thing. Players are typically involved in rescuing or freeing slaves, or inspiring slave rebellions against evil, tyrannical governments. My players enjoy being heroic, and bringing freedom and justice to people.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Arnwolf666 on May 09, 2020, 12:02:49 PM
Al-qadim setting listed prices for slaves if that helps. But generally in my setting they go for 5 GP. skilled artisans And the like can go for much more, up to several hundred GP. But Al-qadim details that very well.

Arabian adventures page 92 gives prices for slaves. They start at around 15-30 GP
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: HappyDaze on May 09, 2020, 01:23:33 PM
I recall the negative reaction I got on the FFG boards from asking how much it would cost for PCs to buy a small batch of Kamino-made clone soldiers. Apparently it's OK when the Jedi Order and the Republic do it by the millions, but when my Outer Rim politico wants a platoon-sized bodyguard unit of Jango-dittos, suddenly it's beyond the pale.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Arnwolf666 on May 09, 2020, 01:35:41 PM
Personally I like ancient settings where slavery is just accepted. I like to get into the Persian, Babylonian, Roman, Egyptian, and Greek settings. There was a passage in an Elric novel where Elric demanded moonglum return the slave girls to their rightful owners. I loved it. He did not want to be a thief.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 09, 2020, 01:37:19 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze;1129385
I recall the negative reaction I got on the FFG boards from asking how much it would cost for PCs to buy a small batch of Kamino-made clone soldiers. Apparently it's OK when the Jedi Order and the Republic do it by the millions, but when my Outer Rim politico wants a platoon-sized bodyguard unit of Jango-dittos, suddenly it's beyond the pale.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Ahh, my friend! Well, that's because of all of the politically correct minded morons, the SJW's, or, just people that are stuck in a modernist/presentist world view. Imagine if you lived in ancient times. Your whole family, everyone around you, throughout society--except for the lowest class, perhaps--all embraced slavery as natural and good. YOU thinking it was immoral, wrong, and evil, would be considered the nutjob, and if you persisted, would likely be imprisoned, beaten, and executed for being a rabble-rousing troublemaker, and a rebel. There wouldn't be any human rights lawyers, and no community activists to save you. People would walk by your body, strung up on the jibbet, and throw fruit and shit at you while they laughed as the crows began to eat you. No one would believe you are moral and heroic. They would think you were stupid, and a foolish, rebellious moron. Beyond your mourning family, you would be soon forgotten.

The ancient world is a very different mind set from our own view of morality, in many, many aspects.:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: oggsmash on May 09, 2020, 03:19:54 PM
MAX cost for a slave in old Conan RPG was 300 silver.  That was for a pre-ordered custom educated, noble blooded, attractive female.  I think the prices may be off.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: SHARK on May 09, 2020, 03:27:26 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1129394
MAX cost for a slave in old Conan RPG was 300 silver.  That was for a pre-ordered custom educated, noble blooded, attractive female.  I think the prices may be off.

Greetings!

Interesting, Oggsmash! That is why I made the thread, at least one topic of inquiry, as to the prices of slaves. Do you use the prices from Conan in your campaign?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Pat on May 09, 2020, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: oggsmash;1129394
MAX cost for a slave in old Conan RPG was 300 silver.  That was for a pre-ordered custom educated, noble blooded, attractive female.  I think the prices may be off.
Remember, we're basing these prices on the value of a day's labor, which in SHARK's world is 10 sp/day. That's rather high, for instance 10 time the prices in the AD&D 1st edition DMG (bearer/porter 1 sp/day). That means, in an an AD&D campaign, the cost of a prime age male would be about 2,500 sp... or is 125 gp. Which sounds like a lot less, doesn't it?

No idea how that compares to whichever of the Conan RPGs you're referring to.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Cloyer Bulse on May 10, 2020, 09:44:26 AM
Quote from: Jason Coplen;1129281
I'm going to be that guy and ask - why? Wouldn't that be more of a cultural thing? Wouldn't some good PCs not think poorly of slavery?  I barely remember a series I read as a teen where the PCs (best term for them) were all about freeing slaves, but they initially came from our world and had our sensibilities.

Chattel slavery and indentured servitude, for purposes other than punishment and/or containment for violent intransigent psychopaths, is non-good because it violates the dignity of the human person and it dehumanizes the slave-owner, since, given human nature, having total control over other humans encourages predation on them.

Further, slavery negates the possibility of choosing between good and evil, the possibility of which allows people to either grow in perfection or fall into corruption, and it is this freedom which characterizes properly human acts.

Obviously, more primitive societies have not had the time to think through the ramifications of their actions, thus their level of culpability varies and must be adjudicated by the game master based on a variety of factors. This is not license to re-define what is good, but rather a distinction between neutral and evil.

The institution of slavery served important functions in primitive cultures. It acted as a prison system, it mobilized low-IQ individuals who would otherwise consume vital resources at a time when mass starvation was a real possibility, it asserted control over fractious individuals in a society which lacked a modern police force, and it served as a system of enculturation for foreign peoples, whether introduced to society by being captured in war, or whatever, thereby preventing them from destabilizing society.

As society develops more sophisticated institutions, piece by piece slavery becomes increasingly antiquated, becoming more destructive than constructive.

Roman society was shockingly violent by modern standards, even during the best of times. Slave revolts were common. During the slave revolt known as the Third Servile War, 50,000 combatants died, not including the 11,000 who were crucified. In our own society, slavery ended in the bloodiest war in American history. The inaccessibility to justice causes despair in a population, and it is this fundamental failure of Ancient culture which lead to the development of Christianity.

As a reminder for translation purposes, the modern theological definition of evil is not that it is a thing unto itself, but that it is the absence of good. Thus the neutral and evil alignments both translate into the real world as evil, the difference being the level of culpability. Those of neutral alignment will commit evil acts when they are provoked into doing so, or where it is pragmatic, and this characterizes the majority of human history. Whereas those of good alignment consciously resist committing evil acts, provocation notwithstanding.

So, slavery is not evil because it does something, it is evil because it lacks something.

It is perfectly natural for slave owners to rape attractive slaves, because that's just human nature. It is perfectly natural for slave owners to brutalize and possibly kill slaves who make them angry. There is simply nothing in slavery that encourages the betterment of the human person.

To think of this in modern legal terms, if you kill someone for having an affair with your wife, a natural response to being provoked, you will normally be charged with second degree murder. That such an act might seem perfectly reasonable in other cultures would not be a viable defense since it is assumed that human rights are universal regardless of whether they are practiced universally.

Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union committed acts of predatory violence, including slavery, that were fundamentally no different than the actions of Ancient and Medieval states, aside from the industrial scale of their acts, made possible by modern industry. After WWII, the world came to a consensus on the nature of human rights. These ideas were not new, having existed for thousands of years, only the global scope of the consensus was new. Which is to say that people did not have a different notion of what was good thousands of years ago -- people still hated injustice, but there was nothing they could do about it; predation was rampant. States such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, which in the Ancient world would have been considered a stabilizing and civilizing influence, are now universally regarded as a pariahs.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Pat on May 10, 2020, 09:56:13 AM
Quote from: Cloyer Bulse;1129478
It is perfectly natural for slave owners to rape attractive slaves, because that's just human nature. It is perfectly natural for slave owners to brutalize and possibly kill slaves who make them angry. There is simply nothing in slavery that encourages the betterment of the human person.

In other words, without God telling them to behave people are naturally evil, and anybody doesn't believe in God is an amoral monster.

I find that an abhorrent point of view. Worse than slavery, in many ways.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: nDervish on May 11, 2020, 06:03:07 AM
Quote from: Pat;1129479
In other words, without God telling them to behave people are naturally evil, and anybody doesn't believe in God is an amoral monster.

I find that an abhorrent point of view. Worse than slavery, in many ways.

Agreed.  The statement you quoted immediately brought this to mind, with the minor tweak of "what's to stop me from raping my slaves all I want?":

(https://i.imgur.com/ADbZdCt.jpg)
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Ghostmaker on May 11, 2020, 11:22:47 AM
Ethics and morals are not hardwired into human brains. Anyone who disagrees with me should go watch a class of kindergartners or preschoolers sometime. You have to teach that shit, whether it's the Christian 'golden rule', the Wiccan rede, or just 'don't be a dick!'.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Pat on May 11, 2020, 12:45:15 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1129554
Ethics and morals are not hardwired into human brains. Anyone who disagrees with me should go watch a class of kindergartners or preschoolers sometime. You have to teach that shit, whether it's the Christian 'golden rule', the Wiccan rede, or just 'don't be a dick!'.
That's false. If you show babies a triangle helping a circle up a hill, and a square hindering the circle climbing the hill, and then give each baby a choice between a triangle and square, an overwhelming majority will pick the triangle. Studies of early cognitive development have shown the blank slate theory is incorrect; while certain moral traits are learned, while others are innate. Though it's also true there are few absolutes -- it's more the brain is wired with certain tendencies, than the brain is wired to always end up at certain outcomes. If you want an exhaustive look at how human think, using the cutting edge of behavioral and moral psychology, anthropology, archaeology, and neurology consider reading Behave by Robert Sapolsky.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: GeekyBugle on May 12, 2020, 05:18:29 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1129554
Ethics and morals are not hardwired into human brains. Anyone who disagrees with me should go watch a class of kindergartners or preschoolers sometime. You have to teach that shit, whether it's the Christian 'golden rule', the Wiccan rede, or just 'don't be a dick!'.

It's been proven with experiments with mice and rats that the fundamentals for our morals and ethics ARE hardwired since way back in the evolutionary tree. Meaning millions of years ago rodents and humans common ancestor probably had that same wiring.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Krugus on May 16, 2020, 02:13:15 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen;1129281
I'm going to be that guy and ask - why? Wouldn't that be more of a cultural thing? Wouldn't some good PCs not think poorly of slavery?  I barely remember a series I read as a teen where the PCs (best term for them) were all about freeing slaves, but they initially came from our world and had our sensibilities.

That would have been Guardian's of the Flame books.

I was just re-reading them the other day.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: David Johansen on May 16, 2020, 03:02:06 PM
I really like that series but my favorites are the last three, Not Exactly the Three Musketeers and so forth.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Kuroth on May 16, 2020, 06:23:38 PM
Kindly old Tunnels & Trolls had the sale base set by attributes (5th 1979, 3.7).  10 gp per total points, with premiums added for charisma attribute points.  So, ST 10, IQ 5, CON 10, Dex 9 = 340 gp.  Slave don't have a luck attribute.  Charisma is only there if paid for, additional 10 gp per point (CHA 18 180 gp base).  Usual buy and sell rules apply.  Slaves may be male or female.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Kuroth on May 16, 2020, 06:29:24 PM
Quote from: Arnwolf666;1129381
Al-qadim setting listed prices for slaves if that helps. But generally in my setting they go for 5 GP. skilled artisans And the like can go for much more, up to several hundred GP. But Al-qadim details that very well.

Arabian adventures page 92 gives prices for slaves. They start at around 15-30 GP
Yes, Al-Qadim had rules and background content.  Most cities had slaves, as I recall.  The City of Brass that was made for Al-Qadim had an inter-dimensional sourced one.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Kuroth on May 16, 2020, 06:59:06 PM
I was just reading 1st edition Talislanta (The Chronicles of Talislanta, Bard 1987) just last night, and there was interesting (somewhat amusing) game content for this, which was the reason the thread caught my eye. I prefer Talislanta's approach for something like this, where such are built around the various elements of the setting, rather than a set rule. Here are some excepts about Batreans that cover such things as relates to them.

"Male and female Batreans bear so little resemblance to each other that they seem to be separate species: the males are huge, slope-shouldered, hairy, and remarkably ugly.  Slow and ponderous, they posses the manners of swine, and fight among each other with regularity.  The Batrean females, on the other hand, are engaging creatures, slender and lovely beyond compare.  Their movements are graceful, and their manner of speech is charming and at times eloquent."

"For many years, entrepreneuring sea-farers have risked the perils of ocean travel to purchase Batrean females, who bring exorbitant prices as concubines in lands such as Zandu, Arim, Faradun, and Quan. Though Batrean males demand as much as 1,000 gold lumens for even the most modest females, their value in foreign lands may exceed five or even ten times this figure."

"As for the Batrean females themselves, few evince any great sadness at being separated from their boorish, slovenly mates. On the contrary; some have been known to help pay for their release with coins pilfered from the hidden treasure caches of their husbands." (The Chronicles of Talislanta  Bard 1987, 12).
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: The Witch-King of Tsámra on May 17, 2020, 01:59:53 AM
It's at this point that I recommend checking out Grim Jim's Tales of Gor RPG.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: Kuroth on May 17, 2020, 08:18:31 PM
Gor doesn't spend as much time on the subject as one might expect.  After all, it is just a lurid John Carter type world for the most part.  I think it would be a good time for Tales of Gor to have a little edit.  He should remove the apologetic bits, like apologizing for its existence at times.  The author puts a few outside influences into the setting (LBGT if it must be stated bluntly). Odd and glaring PC attempts in a very not PC setting.  Redo the character sheet, because zzzzzzzzzz boring.  The little adventure supplements have been pretty neat, though, and they show he probably would like to give it a face lift.
Title: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
Post by: RPGPundit on May 26, 2020, 05:36:10 AM
As slavery was apparently a feature of ancient India, Arrows of Indra has slave markets.