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Author Topic: Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!  (Read 4451 times)

SHARK

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Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2020, 05:23:18 PM »
Quote from: RandyB;1129321
Yup. Some historic realities don't make for effective gaming.

Greetings!

On occasion, my player groups have in the course of their adventures rescued one or more slaves from a villain, or otherwise gained slaves from winning a battle, and conquering an enemy city or a region of land. It's always provided amusement when I tell the players that the 10 slaves they rescued are worth 5,000 SP or 10,000 SP each. The philosophical debates really emerge when they have acquired 500, or 2,000 such valuable slaves.:D

I enjoy it when my players struggle with noble virtues and sweet, sweet greed.:D The conflicting arguments are hilarious as they argue and struggle to reach for some noble virtue and righteous and good morality, while calculating the considerable value in silver or gold such slaves can provide.:D

I like to chime in to them, "Remember, virtue is its own reward!":D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Pat
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Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2020, 06:51:18 PM »
Why are you assuming the base value of a long term investment is the return you can expect over a 4 month period? That's absurdly short. The value of a slave is the amount of expected work over a lifetime, minus upkeep, and then adjusted for risk (death, recalcitrance, do-gooder PCs, etc.) and time-shifting (a sp invested should be worth more than a sp in hand, otherwise why invest?). If we use your valuations and assume 40 years of labor, a slave will produce about 144K sp worth of value in a lifetime. The base value would be less than that, but not 150 times less. Slaves with professional, artisan, or entertainment skills would be valued based on the market value of those skills instead. Also, it makes no sense to sell children for a premium over working age adults, because their peak labor is years away, and in the meantime their maintenance might be a net cost. The most valuable slaves, at least for slaves used in labor, would be healthy young adult men. Women at the height of fertility would also be high value. You're also not considering negative adjustments -- a slave known for being unruly, hurting other slaves, or just for being a drunk will be worth much less than expected. Racial prejudices and cultural preconceptions would heavily influence this.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 07:02:53 PM by Pat »

SHARK

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« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2020, 07:17:57 PM »
Greetings!

I also enjoy being inspired by historical accuracy. In my World of Thandor, for example, there are different styles of slavery. Various styles of slavery have a host of different standards, customs, and expectations, concerning both the slave, and the slave owner. Just like in our own real world history, there are many different facets and approaches to the institution of slavery, the relationships between slaves and their master, the relationships of slaves to society as a whole, the duration of slavery, whether limited, or lifelong, the customs involving whether slaves can marry, create families, and the status of slave's children. In real history, there are examples of generous and kind masters, that freed their slaves upon their death, in their wills. There are customs that allow slaves to own their own private property and wealth. Some slaves became wealthy in their own rights, and amassed great fortunes. Upon their being granted freedom, they went on to establish businesses and become even more wealthy and prosperous. There are also examples of masters "paying slaves"--providing them with monthly allowances as well as seasonal bonuses and donations for faithful and good service. Perhaps surprisingly, there are also examples of slaves that were granted their freedom, and yet they refused such, insisting on staying with their master or their mistress for their entire lives. Slaves have supervised lands, business, and holdings for their masters, and gained high trust. Other slaves raised their master's children, from the cradle to adulthood, as well as tutoring and educating them thoroughly. Also not surprisingly, many masters and mistresses alike, engaged in romantic and sexual relationships with especially favoured slaves. This oftentimes created particularly loyal and deep bonds of love and friendship. There are also instances where a slave and his family were granted freedom, and while embracing their status as free citizens--also chose to remain in the employment of their master, and made arrangements to continue living on their master's land, owning a house, and so on, proceeding to serve their master and their household much like they had always done in previous years. In other cultures, upon the death of a beloved master or mistress, some slaves chose to die in funeral ceremonies alongside their master, even though custom or law made no such requirement upon the slave to do so.

There are also customs of Contract Slavery, where a person voluntarily agrees to serve as a slave for a particular, specified time frame, typically 5, 7, 10, or 20 years, and some also being permitted to voluntarily serve for their whole lifetimes. There are cultures and customs where a slave woman serves as a concubine to her master, while the children she produces with her master enjoy a variety of rights and inheritance, as well as status--even though their mother was a slave. Countless numbers of women were eager to enter into such relationships, willingly serving as a slave for their entire lives, so that their children would enjoy forever a higher status than what their mother was born with.

And so it goes. Of course, slavery is often terrible, brutal, and wicked, but history shows that the institutions of slavery are not as simple as many modern people interpret, and in fact, there are very different approaches to slavery from many different cultures, and times. In some cases, "slave" was merely a title of status that kept the highest political rights beyond the salve, as well as many aspects of personal freedom, and yet, also provided security, resources, and a decidedly better life than many free peasants possessed, or members of the urban poor. I use many such elements to provide colour, details, and nuances to different cultures within the World of Thandor. Some cultures do not have slavery, at all. Meanwhile, other cultures do embrace slavery, though the institution of slavery is not monolithic and simple, but rather can be quite detailed, complex, and nuanced. Some cultures condemn slaves for life, while others attach a terrible stigma to the slave, even should they become free, and no longer a legally classed slave. While still others view the former slave as entirely free, worthy, and dignified, holding the same rights and privileges as any free person not born a slave. Within the campaign world, some slave cultures are horrible and brutal, while others are complex and relatively enlightened. Such different approaches to slavery and "Slave Cultures" create different tapestries for creating stories and adventures throughout the campaign world.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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SHARK

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Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2020, 07:22:02 PM »
Quote from: Pat;1129335
Why are you assuming the base value of a long term investment is the return you can expect over a 4 month period? That's absurdly short. The value of a slave is the amount of expected work over a lifetime, minus upkeep, and then adjusted for risk (death, recalcitrance, do-gooder PCs, etc.) and time-shifting (a sp invested should be worth more than a sp in hand, otherwise why invest?). If we use your valuations and assume 40 years of labor, a slave will produce about 144K sp worth of value in a lifetime. The base value would be less than that, but not 150 times less. Slaves with professional, artisan, or entertainment skills would be valued based on the market value of those skills instead. Also, it makes no sense to sell children for a premium over working age adults, because their peak labor is years away, and in the meantime their maintenance might be a net cost. The most valuable slaves, at least for slaves used in labor, would be healthy young adult men. Women at the height of fertility would also be high value. You're also not considering negative adjustments -- a slave known for being unruly, hurting other slaves, or just for being a drunk will be worth much less than expected. Racial prejudices and cultural preconceptions would heavily influence this.

Greetings!

Hi Pat! Good questions! Well, I recall reading that a slave was often the price equivalent of anywhere from a third of a worker's yearly wages, to a whole year's worth of such wages. Thus, I derived the base value along those lines. I also figured that the more typical prices of slaves were kept relatively low, because the market was usually flooded with multitudes of cheaply priced slaves. Such forces seemed to be consistently present through much of the Roman Republic, and into the Roman Empire, for example.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 07:31:53 PM by SHARK »
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

Pat
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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2020, 07:54:58 PM »
Quote from: SHARK;1129337
Hi Pat! Good questions! Well, I recall reading that a slave was often the price equivalent of anywhere from a third of a worker's yearly wages, to a whole year's worth of such wages. Thus, I derived the base value along those lines. I also figured that the more typical prices of slaves were kept relatively low, because the market was usually flooded with multitudes of cheaply priced slaves. Such forces seemed to be consistently present through much of the Roman Republic, and into the Roman Empire, for example.
I suspect your memory is faulty. I'm not bothering with authoritative sources, but both these cite specific numbers from print references:
https://calvusguy.blogspot.com/2013/01/slavery-how-much-are-you-worth.html
https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/33968/what-was-the-median-price-for-a-slave-child-in-the-augustan-rome

The first mentions a male slave in Pompeii who was sold for 6,252 sesterces, and a female slave at the same time who sold for 2,400 sesterces in Britain. By comparison, the average annual income was 900 sesterces. And they specifically mention that's based on cultural assumptions that a slave will typically be freed in 10 years.

The second gives a range from 300 to 1200 drachmas (the high end being an adult male, presumably in their working prime), while fire fighters earned 150/year.

So that's two separate sources that value slaves at about 2 to 7 years worth of labor.

Zirunel

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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2020, 08:19:30 PM »
I think a good (or at least simple) rule of thumb for a capital purchase that generates income is, purchase price= 1 years gross revenue. Not net, gross. Not tech company that may be rising on a rocket where you may be in bubble territory but just some mundane reliable revenue generating asset. Obviously there can be a lot of difference in the details, and if you're buying something for reasons other than revenue then all bets are off but if your paying more than the asset's gross revenue in a year that's at least a warning you may possibly be paying too much.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 08:25:03 PM by Zirunel »

SHARK

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Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2020, 08:20:11 PM »
Quote from: Pat;1129340
I suspect your memory is faulty. I'm not bothering with authoritative sources, but both these cite specific numbers from print references:
https://calvusguy.blogspot.com/2013/01/slavery-how-much-are-you-worth.html
https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/33968/what-was-the-median-price-for-a-slave-child-in-the-augustan-rome

The first mentions a male slave in Pompeii who was sold for 6,252 sesterces, and a female slave at the same time who sold for 2,400 sesterces in Britain. By comparison, the average annual income was 900 sesterces. And they specifically mention that's based on cultural assumptions that a slave will typically be freed in 10 years.

The second gives a range from 300 to 1200 drachmas (the high end being an adult male, presumably in their working prime), while fire fighters earned 150/year.

So that's two separate sources that value slaves at about 2 to 7 years worth of labor.

Greetings!

Ahh, very nice, Pat! Thank you. Yes, it has been awhile. Hmmm. I should then change the base value by a multiplier of x5 to x7. On the low end, that would be 700x5=3,500 SP, and on the high end, 1,200x5=6,000. That's pretty cool, Pat. On a x7 scale, the base value would be 4900 (7x700) to 8400 (7x1200). Assuming a worker is making approximately 3,000 SP a year, that makes the base value of a slave one to two or three year's wages, before any modifiers. Adding modifiers would increase the final price substantially.

Edit: I changed the table to reflect a modified base value of 5,000 to 8,000 SP. Which serves as a base of a year and a half wages to three years, before the additional modifiers.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 08:36:03 PM by SHARK »
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David Johansen

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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2020, 10:11:08 PM »
I did have the one campaign where the slaves had basically taken over a kingdom over time and the trappings of slavery had become the trappings of afluence and power so the people walking around naked and in chains were actually the rich and powerful.  Even the word `slave` meant ruler in that culture.  But that was really, mostly a GM screw the players twist.
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Pat
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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2020, 10:37:11 PM »
Quote from: SHARK;1129343
Ahh, very nice, Pat! Thank you. Yes, it has been awhile. Hmmm. I should then change the base value by a multiplier of x5 to x7. On the low end, that would be 700x5=3,500 SP, and on the high end, 1,200x5=6,000. That's pretty cool, Pat. On a x7 scale, the base value would be 4900 (7x700) to 8400 (7x1200). Assuming a worker is making approximately 3,000 SP a year, that makes the base value of a slave one to two or three year's wages, before any modifiers. Adding modifiers would increase the final price substantially.
I still think you're lowballing it. That's not a multiplier, it's years worth of basic labor. Converting that using your 3,600 sp/yr, the 4 male slaves in the two examples convert to roughly 24-29K sp apiece. The clever, home-born slave who speaks Greek is 48K, the girl of 8 years is 15K, the girl in bad repute is about 14K, the "cheap and worthless" slave is about 12K, the female on the fringes of the empire is about 10K, the boy is about 7K, and the presumably very young slave is about 3K.

Another source:
https://www.measuringworth.com/slavery.php
It's an analysis of slave prices in the US South, prior to the Civil War, so we can't directly compare values (slaves kept for life would be worth more than slaves in the Roman Empire, who are often given or able to purchase their freedom after a decade). But we can eyeball some of the charts for some basic data. Female slaves appear to worth about 80% the value of a male, peak age is 18-30, then decline about 10% by 40, 40% by 50, and 2/3rds by 60 (that would have to adjusted based on life expectancy). A chlid of 10 is worth about 50%, under 5 about 10%. Also has a good breakdown of contributing factors to the price: "A premium was paid if the slave was an artisan -- particularly a blacksmith (+55%), a carpenter (+45%), a cook (+20%), or possessed other domestic skills (+15%). On the other hand, a slave's price was discounted if the person was known to be a runaway (-60%), was crippled (-60%), had a vice such as drinking (-50%), or was physically impaired (-30%)." Note skills like being a blacksmith are probably more useful in the distant past than in the 18th or 19th centuries, whereas education was probably far more highly valued in Ancient Rome.

So (handwave)
  • prime male: 25,000 sp
  • prime female: 20,000 sp
  • 5- years: -90%
  • 10 years: -50%
  • 20-30 years: no adjustment
  • 40 years: -10%
  • 50 years: -40%
  • 60+ years: -70%
  • impaired or bad behavior: -30%
  • major functional or behavioral problems (like crippled, drunk, etc.): -60%
  • basic skill: +20%
  • artisan skill: +50%
  • educated: +100% (skills should probably be minimums)
  • bought in the hinterlands: up to -50%
That's drawing a lot of conclusions from limited data, but that's a hazard of trying to systematize things without doing too much research.

Spinachcat

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« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2020, 12:27:10 AM »
There's real history and then there's gaming.

In history, obedient slaves was a thing.

In gaming, PCs rarely trust their paid hirelings. How much less would they trust a slave?

If obedient slaves is a cultural norm in the setting, then I could see the PCs becoming accustomed to the concept. However, I don't know how much players will be okay with that concept. Definitely one of those "discuss with the table in advance" issues, especially since slavery is definitely going to involve sex slavery.

SHARK

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Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2020, 12:56:37 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1129351
There's real history and then there's gaming.

In history, obedient slaves was a thing.

In gaming, PCs rarely trust their paid hirelings. How much less would they trust a slave?

If obedient slaves is a cultural norm in the setting, then I could see the PCs becoming accustomed to the concept. However, I don't know how much players will be okay with that concept. Definitely one of those "discuss with the table in advance" issues, especially since slavery is definitely going to involve sex slavery.

Greetings!

Hey my friend! Yeah, players have dealt with NPC slave owners in the campaign, and usually villains, that kind of thing. Players are typically involved in rescuing or freeing slaves, or inspiring slave rebellions against evil, tyrannical governments. My players enjoy being heroic, and bringing freedom and justice to people.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Arnwolf666

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Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2020, 12:02:49 PM »
Al-qadim setting listed prices for slaves if that helps. But generally in my setting they go for 5 GP. skilled artisans And the like can go for much more, up to several hundred GP. But Al-qadim details that very well.

Arabian adventures page 92 gives prices for slaves. They start at around 15-30 GP
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 12:09:01 PM by Arnwolf666 »

HappyDaze

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« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2020, 01:23:33 PM »
I recall the negative reaction I got on the FFG boards from asking how much it would cost for PCs to buy a small batch of Kamino-made clone soldiers. Apparently it's OK when the Jedi Order and the Republic do it by the millions, but when my Outer Rim politico wants a platoon-sized bodyguard unit of Jango-dittos, suddenly it's beyond the pale.

Arnwolf666

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« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2020, 01:35:41 PM »
Personally I like ancient settings where slavery is just accepted. I like to get into the Persian, Babylonian, Roman, Egyptian, and Greek settings. There was a passage in an Elric novel where Elric demanded moonglum return the slave girls to their rightful owners. I loved it. He did not want to be a thief.

SHARK

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Bow Down To The Yoke! Slave Markets!
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2020, 01:37:19 PM »
Quote from: HappyDaze;1129385
I recall the negative reaction I got on the FFG boards from asking how much it would cost for PCs to buy a small batch of Kamino-made clone soldiers. Apparently it's OK when the Jedi Order and the Republic do it by the millions, but when my Outer Rim politico wants a platoon-sized bodyguard unit of Jango-dittos, suddenly it's beyond the pale.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Ahh, my friend! Well, that's because of all of the politically correct minded morons, the SJW's, or, just people that are stuck in a modernist/presentist world view. Imagine if you lived in ancient times. Your whole family, everyone around you, throughout society--except for the lowest class, perhaps--all embraced slavery as natural and good. YOU thinking it was immoral, wrong, and evil, would be considered the nutjob, and if you persisted, would likely be imprisoned, beaten, and executed for being a rabble-rousing troublemaker, and a rebel. There wouldn't be any human rights lawyers, and no community activists to save you. People would walk by your body, strung up on the jibbet, and throw fruit and shit at you while they laughed as the crows began to eat you. No one would believe you are moral and heroic. They would think you were stupid, and a foolish, rebellious moron. Beyond your mourning family, you would be soon forgotten.

The ancient world is a very different mind set from our own view of morality, in many, many aspects.:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b