There are a lot of books based on/set in game worlds, so what do people think of them? The main ones seem to be GW/WoD books, with the D&D settings coming in behind them and a few others.
Based on what I've read there are a lot of GW based books, some quite good. Dan Abnett is a hell of a writer and most of his stuff is top notch, like the "Gaunt's ghosts" series. Another great one from GW, maybe theur best, is "Lord of the Night" which is an excellent book on several levels. As a 40k novel it's great because it sticks to the mythos, but also presents an alternative view to the history of the 40k universe that is plausible and makes you wonder how things 'really' went in the founding of the imperium, and if the emperor was as pure and noble as imperial theology teaches.
Psychologically it's close to "The silence of the lambs" in some ways, as two disparate characters on opposite sides of the fence discover each other and find that each has much to learn from the other.
I think LotN is the best GW novel I've ever read and can recommend it to most gamers.
As to bad ones, I tried reading a D&D based novel, something about a vampire and an elf, and just couldn't keep reading it. I gave it to a friend of mine who'se into D&D. I can't even recall the title, it was so bad.
The few WoD novels I read long ago were generally as dreary and depressing as the setting itself, tho there were a few good short stories in some of the collections.
There was a battletech novel written by Vic Milan. Given that I hate battletech I've never read it, but Vic Milan is a good writer and someone I know personally, so I'll say that it's probably a good battletech novel.
Feel free to express your own feelings towards any game based books you want to.
I like the Warhammer stories by Jack Yeovil (Kim Newman), conveniently compiled in Genevieve Undead. C.L. Werner's Witchhunter and Witchfinder are also good.
Beyond those, I think most RPG-based novels are pretty bad. Certainly the D&D ones.
I've only ever read Shadowrun and D&D books. In both cases it was hit or miss for quality.
I've found that if you do into them expecting everything to conform to rules you're going to be disappointed.
Quote from: James McMurrayI've only ever read Shadowrun and D&D books. In both cases it was hit or miss for quality.
I've found that if you do into them expecting everything to conform to rules you're going to be disappointed.
You've definitely got a point there. The GW novel "Fire warrior" was supposed to be a 40k novel, but there was no way in HELL the events could possibly have happened in the game.
I always thought Ian Watson's take on W40K was pretty cool. I've read some fantasy novels based on games, didn't really dig them.
Regards,
David R
I have yet to find a good game-based novel. I don't think they exist.
There are some that are better than others, but I wouldn't put a one above anything by Neal Stephenson, Neil Gaiman, GRRM, etc.
I read them sometimes because it provides good setting background, but never for quality fiction.
-O
Quote from: obrynI have yet to find a good game-based novel. I don't think they exist.
There are some that are better than others, but I wouldn't put a one above anything by Neal Stephenson, Neil Gaiman, GRRM, etc.
I read them sometimes because it provides good setting background, but never for quality fiction.
-O
"Lord of the Night" was very good, and for the most part the Eisenhorn trilogy was as well. Both were in the 40K line by GW.
As I mentionned a while ago, there's a link on my blog to an article about the history of GW's fiction line and how they've essentially had every great British writer produce something for them over the years. Newman's different in that he actually enjoyed writing his books but people like Brian Stableford, Charles Stross, Stephen Baxter and so on did it for the money and were vaguely horrified at the GW people lecturing them at great length about how thou shalt not fuck with their IP in any way.
Having said that, I think that generation of GW writers were something of an exception to the rule as most game tie-in novels are a complete and utter waste of your time and everyone else's.
So you shouldn't read them... you should read novels by Mary Gentle as she's a gamer and arguably one of the most exciting fantasy/SF writers in operation at the moment. She wrote Ash, which is about 650,000 long and WILL kick your arse, it's even spawned a recent prequel which wasm somewhat shamefully released without much fanfare a couple of weeks ago.
The GW books written by people who could actually write were good.
The rest, life's too short. And frankly, if I had a million years left I'd still say that.
There's too much good fiction out there to waste time reading that shit.
I might make an exception for something like say Delta Green, where the guys writing the stories also created the setting (so at least it's their ideas) but even then only if recommended by people I trusted.
Well, I assume we're talking about official game novels, as quite some fantasy authors base their characters or worlds on their gaming worlds, or at least get some inspiration from that.
Most D&D novels are pretty bad, but sometimes they make for decent reading. Sometimes you need some fireballs to clear the cobwebs of Donaldson'ish depression stuff or some of the more pansy female fantasy lit...
The only Warhammer novel I read was a rather badly done Phantom of the Opera reimagining. I think it even had a female vampire protagonist. Yuck.
I'll just have to nate that in comparison the German RPG novels suck up the ground from bottomless depths. It often reads like teenage goths writing novels -- but it's probably more their hippy teachers...
Books -> Games = okay
Games -> Books = Erm, better not...
Movies -> Books = Oh my.
I enjoyed some of the Shadowrun novels, but I was thirteen at the time and they probably sucked. I'll echo that some of the GW novels were great
I don't know if this counts as it hasn't been released yet (or AFAIK, finished), but an early draft of the YotZ novel that Tim's been threatening was fantastic. Think Chuck Palunik meets Tom Clancy. I was creeped out and he hadn't even reached Zero Hour.
Quote from: Sosthenes...The only Warhammer novel I read was a rather badly done Phantom of the Opera reimagining. I think it even had a female vampire protagonist. Yuck....
That sounds like
Drachenfels by Jack Yeovil (Kim Newman). It is widely regarded as one of the best (if not the best) novels written for the Warhammer Old World. And most people respect Yeovil/Newman as a writer. So given that you've admitted to reading Salvatore elsewhere, I'll just have to dismiss your 'Yuck' reaction as a case of 'throwing pearls at swine'. ;) :p
These days I avoid game fiction like the plague. As a youth I enjoyed the first couple Gord of Greyhawk books by Gary Gygax, even though these days they strike me as a poor imitation of Leiber with a Greyhawk travelogue as the backdrop. The first few Dragonlance novels seemed respectable.
Past that, the only game novels I've read were the Cyborg Commando trilogy. The less said about that, the better.
Quote from: AkrasiaThat sounds like Drachenfels by Jack Yeovil (Kim Newman). It is widely regarded as one of the best (if not the best) novels written for the Warhammer Old World.
Let me repeat that: The book had a vampire protagonist.
IIRC, it even had some weird octopus mutant as the Phantom, though I might confuse that with yet another PotO satire. Chick-lit horror and baroque satire isn't exactly the first image I get when I think of the WFRP world. I can't say much about the writing, it's been quite some time since I read it. No Penny Dreadful, but it didn't exactly encourage me to buy more Warhammer novels.
Quote from: AkrasiaSo given that you've admitted to reading Salvatore elsewhere, I'll just have to dismiss your 'Yuck' reaction as a case of 'throwing pearls at swine'. ;) :p
I admit a lot of things -- due to some photos on the internet I can't exactly deny them. Reading fantasy isn't something deep and brooding most of the time, so I can read the worst trash as long as the writing and themes aren't totally atrocious. Lots of D&D novels sound like glorified adventure logs. That goes a long way to prevent pretentiousness... I still wouldn't call them good novels, though Salvatore still is better than the usual Eddings drivel.
I liked:
Gaunts Ghosts for WH40k
Riders of the Dead
Ed Greenwoods stuff
Dragonlance novels
They might not be up there with the better authors, but they are entertaining reads.
Quote from: McrowI liked:
Gaunts Ghosts for WH40k
Riders of the Dead
Ed Greenwoods stuff
Dragonlance novels
They might not be up there with the better authors, but they are entertaining reads.
If you liked gaunt's ghosts, allow me to recommend the Eisenhorn trilogy, 3 novels about an inquisitor.
Quote from: SosthenesThat goes a long way to prevent pretentiousness... I still wouldn't call them good novels, though Salvatore still is better than the usual Eddings drivel.
Not sure which ones you have read, but I happen to enjoy Eddings myself. On the other hand I've never been able to get myself to read Salvatore due to my dislike/hatred of the Drowphilia his work has fed and nurtured over the years. (I'm told that I should try it, and one of these days I'm sure that I will, I just think he has a lot to answer for in that area)
Quote from: Sosthenes... Chick-lit horror and baroque satire isn't exactly the first image I get when I think of the WFRP world...
Well, I certainly didn't see the novel as 'chick-lit horror'. Rather, it was damn good, dark, ironic fun. And even people who don't like 'game fiction' (including myself) like Yeovil's stuff.
The stories by Jack Yeovil/Kim Newman do a great job of portraying the WFRP IMO.
Quote from: cnath.rmNot sure which ones you have read, but I happen to enjoy Eddings myself.
I managed to get through the Sparhawk stuff, stopped halfway through the Althalus book and browsed through some of the Belgariad saga at a friend's. Some nice ideas, a little too formulaic and gee, do the main guys like each other. Lots of group-hugs and similar shite.
Quote from: cnath.rmOn the other hand I've never been able to get myself to read Salvatore due to my dislike/hatred of the Drowphilia his work has fed and nurtured over the years. (I'm told that I should try it, and one of these days I'm sure that I will, I just think he has a lot to answer for in that area)
Drizzt was meant as a side character and should probably have stayed that way. Some visions from the Drow culture were quite nice, but to black-and-white mostly (which might not even be Salvatore's fault, as this is generally mandated by TSR/WotC). As literature it's not that good, as adventure logs it's decent. The Drizzt trilogy isn't half bad, the group adventures suck, the Cadderly stuff is worse. It even seems he's realizing it himself, as lately he's mostly written books about the bad guys. In the latest offering, I could even detect hings of self-irony...
Most Forgotten Realms stuff is crap, especially when it has Drows. Don't even get me started about the archmage's barbarian-loving daughter or the "war" of the Spider Queen.
I recently read some Eberron novels and kinda liked them. I think they were the first novels by Keith Baker, but at least he was the one who designed the whole setting, so at least the background material was okay. No awards for originality or technical excellence, but I could imagine my group having similar adventures... I don't expect much more from game fiction.
Allegedly some of the WoD stuff descended into Werewolf porn. Which was too be expected...
Quote from: AkrasiaWell, I certainly didn't see the novel as 'chick-lit horror'. Rather, it was damn good, dark, ironic fun. And even people who don't like 'game fiction' (including myself) like Yeovil's stuff.
Oh, if appeals to majority would work for me, I'd be reading Dan Brown right now. ;)
Well, maybe it just didn't resonate with me. That's not the way I imagine the Old World. A few jokes and pop culture references more, and you'd be in Pratchett territory. Some basic chaos-war stuff or more subtle Enemy Within stuff is what I want. I never liked vampires in fantasy literature.
Quote from: SosthenesI managed to get through the Sparhawk stuff, stopped halfway through the Althalus book and browsed through some of the Belgariad saga at a friend's. Some nice ideas, a little too formulaic and gee, do the main guys like each other. Lots of group-hugs and similar shite.
I never got past the first three Sparhawk books, and yeah the Belgariad (and the Melorian (not going to look up the spelling) that follows it) do follow a formula, :shrug: but at least they work to explain why it's a formula by the end. :D
Quote from: SosthenesDrizzt was meant as a side character and should probably have stayed that way. Some visions from the Drow culture were quite nice, but to black-and-white mostly (which might not even be Salvatore's fault, as this is generally mandated by TSR/WotC).
Good to know, maybe I'll check out the trillogy sometime. Thanks for the info.
Quote from: SosthenesAllegedly some of the WoD stuff descended into Werewolf porn. Which was too be expected...
I must have missed those ones, a lot of the rest were extremely dark/depressing (as befits the world of dimness). I enjoyed some of the short stories, but I'm not going to be rereading them anything time soon.
Paul Kidd's "Greyhawk" books published by WotC have been outstanding. They are perhaps too humorous for some, but they also have some kick-ass action.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonPaul Kidd's "Greyhawk" books published by WotC have been outstanding. They are perhaps too humorous for some, but they also have some kick-ass action.
Yes, yes they are.
As are the Commissar Caine 40k novels by Sandy Mitchel. Both are somwhat irreverant takes on their respective gamelines and settings, and both are very good series. I doubt we will see another "Justicar and Faerie" book, but I suspect the Caine novels will continue.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonPaul Kidd's "Greyhawk" books published by WotC have been outstanding. They are perhaps too humorous for some, but they also have some kick-ass action.
I would say that they are 'pretty good', not 'outstanding' (or at least the first two novels; the third one is a bit too over-the-top). But
definitely the only 'D&D novels' that I know of that are worth reading.
Quote from: BalbinusThe GW books written by people who could actually write were good.
The rest, life's too short. And frankly, if I had a million years left I'd still say that.
There's too much good fiction out there to waste time reading that shit.
I might make an exception for something like say Delta Green, where the guys writing the stories also created the setting (so at least it's their ideas) but even then only if recommended by people I trusted.
Of course I agree with Max. On recommending stuff:
I've only read
Denied to the Enemy by Dennis Detwiller, and it's very very good. SOme short stories by John Tynes are also top-notch.
WoD novels usually are a crock of shit. Exception: Greg Stolze books are golden.
Each and every D&D novel (be it FR, DL, generic or whatever) that I've read are mediocre at their best, and a good reason for start burning books again most of the time.
So, usually, I don't read game novels unless the author is one that I trust.
Well, wasn't Ray Feist's Magician almost entirely based on his D&D campaign?
Quote from: Dominus NoxIf you liked gaunt's ghosts, allow me to recommend the Eisenhorn trilogy, 3 novels about an inquisitor.
Nox is very much correct.
Damn, that felt strange to type.
Quote from: WarthurWell, wasn't Ray Feist's Magician almost entirely based on his D&D campaign?
Yes.
Quote from: SosthenesNo Penny Dreadful, but it didn't exactly encourage me to buy more Warhammer novels.
I liked "Penny Dreadful". It wasn't bad for fanfic :p
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonI liked "Penny Dreadful". It wasn't bad for fanfic
Well, an appendectomy isn't bad for an organ removal operation, either.
I tend not to read gaming fiction. I somehow can't get the sound of rolling dice out of my head half the time whilst reading it.
However, Jack Yeovil's (Kim Newman's) warhammer stuff is good. Also for some reason i enjoyed Test of the Twins (Dragonlance) when it came out.
Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series is obviously based on In Harm's Way. The books - and I've read them all - are all IHW session logs cunningly disguised with a thin veil of superlative writing. Aubrey and Maturin are obviously main and secondary troupe characters of the same player - the third troupe character had me fooled - for the longest time I thought it was Barret Bonden, but I see now in retrospect that it was definitely Preserved Killick. The plots are insubstantial gossamer things holding together some magnificent roleplaying, all of them straight out of the book, but O'Brian's history is not the best - 1814 was apparently the Campaign Year That No-one Wanted To End! Maybe the GM was out of a job then? He must've had a lot of time on his hands. What isn't in the book is the extended shore adventures. I've done this in my own games, but O'Brian - or whoever the GM was - really milked the device! Hat's off for going above and beyond! The possibility remains that Aubrey/Maturin/Killick was a GMPC, designed to overawe the other players - otherwise how does one accound for Maturin, who has three separate avocations - Naturalist, Musician, and Intelligence Agent - as well as being a damned excellent surgeon, a crack shot, and darned handy with a blade! At any event, the GM has loaded him down with nasty personal troubles, and the player obbviously used Charisma as a dump stat! With Aubrey, on the other hand, the player translated a probable normal IQ into mathmatical brilliance with a balancing idiocy in other matters. The GM either approved that little end run or was lax in preventing it! That allowed him to take a modest Interest and a fine Luck while still having a not too stupid character! Now I must find a time machine to send the game back to O'Brian. Anyone know H. G. Wells' address? :O
-clash
Quote from: flyingmicePatrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin series is obviously based on In Harm's Way. The books - and I've read them all - are all IHW session logs cunningly disguised with a thin veil of superlative writing. Aubrey and Maturin are obviously main and secondary troupe characters of the same player - the third troupe character had me fooled - for the longest time I thought it was Barret Bonden, but I see now in retrospect that it was definitely Preserved Killick. The plots are insubstantial gossamer things holding together some magnificent roleplaying, all of them straight out of the book, but O'Brian's history is not the best - 1814 was apparently the Campaign Year That No-one Wanted To End! Maybe the GM was out of a job then? He must've had a lot of time on his hands. What isn't in the book is the extended shore adventures. I've done this in my own games, but O'Brian - or whoever the GM was - really milked the device! Hat's off for going above and beyond! The possibility remains that Aubrey/Maturin/Killick was a GMPC, designed to overawe the other players - otherwise how does one accound for Maturin, who has three separate avocations - Naturalist, Musician, and Intelligence Agent - as well as being a damned excellent surgeon, a crack shot, and darned handy with a blade! At any event, the GM has loaded him down with nasty personal troubles, and the player obbviously used Charisma as a dump stat! With Aubrey, on the other hand, the player translated a probable normal IQ into mathmatical brilliance with a balancing idiocy in other matters. The GM either approved that little end run or was lax in preventing it! That allowed him to take a modest Interest and a fine Luck while still having a not too stupid character! Now I must find a time machine to send the game back to O'Brian. Anyone know H. G. Wells' address? :O
-clash
I am Imperator and I declare this post AWESOME.
Quote from: ImperatorI am Imperator and I declare this post AWESOME.
/me bows. :D
-clash
I like some of the Warhammer Fantasy novels, usually the earlier ones. The 40K ones I'm not as into, though I want to check out the Horus Heresy books some year. I liked the first Gord novel as a kid but not now. I'd rather read more Fritz Leiber and company instead.
Quote from: WarthurWell, wasn't Ray Feist's Magician almost entirely based on his D&D campaign?
Yes, they tell the story of how High Magic came to Midkemia 100s of years before the events in the original D&D (http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/original.html) campaign he played in. The GM almost assuredly had access to Empire of the Petal Throne (http://www.tekumel.com/gaming_rulesEPT.html), so they also serve as a good intro to Tekumel as well as D&D. I like the original books, up to about when the story shifted to the children of the original characters. I missed the Empire (Tsurani) series, I'd like to read that some year.
M.A.R. Barker has written five Tekumel novels so far (http://www.tekumel.com/tita/novels.html).
- Flamesong - standalone about a military unit
- The Man of Gold - first of the Harsan novels
- Prince of Skulls - the rest are also about Harsan; while they can be read alone they do follow upon previous events
- The Lords of Tsamra
- A Death of Kings
Flamesong and The Man of Gold were printed by DAW back in the 80s, so while out of print it's not too hard to find a used reading copy. The rest are in print from Zotpub.com . The RPG came out before any novels, though that wasn't the original intent.
Personally I find them as thick as Tolkein sometimes but easier to wade through since they're very "spicy" compared to say a vanilla Tolkein-derivative. Some of my Tekumel players have found the setting easier to play in and understood a lot more after reading the first two novels. Barker does dip into Tekumel 401 topics (which can get as silly as advanced Dianetics IMO but are OTOH just as pulpy :P) and seems to use a lot more artifacts and technology than I expected, but then again his novels have a lot of pivotal events and travelling to various lands/dimensions/
.
Quote from: Casey777M.A.R. Barker has written five Tekumel novels so far (http://www.tekumel.com/tita/novels.html).
- Flamesong - standalone about a military unit
- The Man of Gold - first of the Harsan novels
- Prince of Skulls - the rest are also about Harsan; while they can be read alone they do follow upon previous events
- The Lords of Tsamra
- A Death of Kings
Flamesong and The Man of Gold were printed by DAW back in the 80s, so while out of print it's not too hard to find a used reading copy. The rest are in print from Zotpub.com . The RPG came out before any novels, though that wasn't the original intent.
Yeah, I'm not sure that Tekumel counts since both the RPG and the novels were essentially by-products of MAR Barker's worldbuilding hobby, just as The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings grew out of Tolkein's. The novels aren't "the book of the game", they're "the book of the fat wad of notes" just as Empire of the Petal Throne and its successors were "the game of the fat wad of notes".
If you want a really gritty, dark war novel along the lines of "All quiet on the western front" try "15 hours" for the 40K line.