Looks like even this can catch the ire of the self-appointed gatekeepers:
https://www.geeknative.com/103651/blood-feud-rpg-designers-deny-their-game-is-a-male-fantasy/

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 29, 2021, 08:35:47 AM
My point in including it here was to illustrate how it was the old woman who murdered the slave girl.

"They" would explain that the old woman had internalized misogyny.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 30, 2021, 05:42:52 PM
It will be highly entertaining to watch this thing flop.

Yes it would indeed, but it probably won't.

Given the hate mob woke environment the writers feed on, it has to fund or there is a major loss of credibility within their social media "safe space".
The funding level will probably be set at the bare minimum to get something released just so they can point to it being "successful".

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 02, 2021, 01:20:38 PM
Looks like even this can catch the ire of the self-appointed gatekeepers:
https://www.geeknative.com/103651/blood-feud-rpg-designers-deny-their-game-is-a-male-fantasy/

Now that many people are pushing back, the easier targets are ones who agree with them already.

Quote from: Altheus on February 01, 2021, 05:15:42 PM

Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 01, 2021, 04:53:39 PM
"I'm going to teach you all the horrors of toxic masculinity by role-playing as badass, muscular, axe wielding, alpha male psychopaths, who do what they want, when they want, surrounded by women who necessarily know their place as subservient wives and daughters, in a patriarchal, totally unfair society!"

I do believe you all hit the mark saying this stuff is for self-loathing men. More specifically, men who are terrible at being men and therefore hate all things men. We don't live in a world where you're forced to be many things just by birth, but like if we did, and you were born into the basketball tribe and had to play basketball everyday... if you sucked at basketball and got dunked on, smacked around on pick plays, people talked trash in your face all day, you would despise basketball with a passion. They want a performative, public way to demonstrate their hatred of this thing they fail at.

Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).

Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.

I had a psychic premonition of someone commenting this based on the well known, rather contextless, factoid that Viking women held a few legal rights at the time. And I was reminded of the story someone once gave about an American expert on China, who because of political difficulties had earned their PhD in Chinese studies but had never in all their life actually been to China. This expert became a professor, taught a class about China at an American university, and the person relating the story was taking their course, and one of their classmates was actually a Chinese student studying abroad. And they got to talking one day about the class and what they were learning, and the Chinese student said, "You know, they've got all the facts right about Chinese society, but it actually just doesn't work that way."

How much harder we have it trying to understand a millennia old culture, almost entirely illiterate, with cultural practices unlike any we could experience anywhere on Earth even if we wanted to. In my opinion, based on further reading on the matter, being a woman in Norse society probably would be experienced by one of us as extremely repressive using our modern standards.

Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 02, 2021, 09:58:48 PM

Quote from: Altheus on February 01, 2021, 05:15:42 PM

Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 01, 2021, 04:53:39 PM
"I'm going to teach you all the horrors of toxic masculinity by role-playing as badass, muscular, axe wielding, alpha male psychopaths, who do what they want, when they want, surrounded by women who necessarily know their place as subservient wives and daughters, in a patriarchal, totally unfair society!"

I do believe you all hit the mark saying this stuff is for self-loathing men. More specifically, men who are terrible at being men and therefore hate all things men. We don't live in a world where you're forced to be many things just by birth, but like if we did, and you were born into the basketball tribe and had to play basketball everyday... if you sucked at basketball and got dunked on, smacked around on pick plays, people talked trash in your face all day, you would despise basketball with a passion. They want a performative, public way to demonstrate their hatred of this thing they fail at.

Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).

Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.

I had a psychic premonition of someone commenting this based on the well known, rather contextless, factoid that Viking women held a few legal rights at the time. And I was reminded of the story someone once gave about an American expert on China, who because of political difficulties had earned their PhD in Chinese studies but had never in all their life actually been to China. This expert became a professor, taught a class about China at an American university, and the person relating the story was taking their course, and one of their classmates was actually a Chinese student studying abroad. And they got to talking one day about the class and what they were learning, and the Chinese student said, "You know, they've got all the facts right about Chinese society, but it actually just doesn't work that way."

How much harder we have it trying to understand a millennia old culture, almost entirely illiterate, with cultural practices unlike any we could experience anywhere on Earth even if we wanted to. In my opinion, based on further reading on the matter, being a woman in Norse society probably would be experienced by one of us as extremely repressive using our modern standards.

I think we'd find living in a millennia old culture violent, oppressive, dangerous and exhausting regardless of sex, compared to our modern standards.

Hell, I would not want to live in a culture only a few centuries ago, compared to our modern standards.

Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 02, 2021, 09:58:48 PM

Quote from: Altheus on February 01, 2021, 05:15:42 PM

Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 01, 2021, 04:53:39 PM
"I'm going to teach you all the horrors of toxic masculinity by role-playing as badass, muscular, axe wielding, alpha male psychopaths, who do what they want, when they want, surrounded by women who necessarily know their place as subservient wives and daughters, in a patriarchal, totally unfair society!"

I do believe you all hit the mark saying this stuff is for self-loathing men. More specifically, men who are terrible at being men and therefore hate all things men. We don't live in a world where you're forced to be many things just by birth, but like if we did, and you were born into the basketball tribe and had to play basketball everyday... if you sucked at basketball and got dunked on, smacked around on pick plays, people talked trash in your face all day, you would despise basketball with a passion. They want a performative, public way to demonstrate their hatred of this thing they fail at.

Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).

Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.

I had a psychic premonition of someone commenting this based on the well known, rather contextless, factoid that Viking women held a few legal rights at the time. And I was reminded of the story someone once gave about an American expert on China, who because of political difficulties had earned their PhD in Chinese studies but had never in all their life actually been to China. This expert became a professor, taught a class about China at an American university, and the person relating the story was taking their course, and one of their classmates was actually a Chinese student studying abroad. And they got to talking one day about the class and what they were learning, and the Chinese student said, "You know, they've got all the facts right about Chinese society, but it actually just doesn't work that way."

How much harder we have it trying to understand a millennia old culture, almost entirely illiterate, with cultural practices unlike any we could experience anywhere on Earth even if we wanted to. In my opinion, based on further reading on the matter, being a woman in Norse society probably would be experienced by one of us as extremely repressive using our modern standards.

That's why I qualified it as a pretty good deal for the time, compared to the lot of a great many women elsewhere in the world (limited knowledge of history outside of my time as a viking reenactor).

Life in the dark ages was nasty, brutal and short, more so the further down the class system you go.

Quote from: Altheus on February 03, 2021, 08:30:35 AM

Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 02, 2021, 09:58:48 PM

Quote from: Altheus on February 01, 2021, 05:15:42 PM
Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).

Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.

How much harder we have it trying to understand a millennia old culture, almost entirely illiterate, with cultural practices unlike any we could experience anywhere on Earth even if we wanted to. In my opinion, based on further reading on the matter, being a woman in Norse society probably would be experienced by one of us as extremely repressive using our modern standards.

That's why I qualified it as a pretty good deal for the time, compared to the lot of a great many women elsewhere in the world (limited knowledge of history outside of my time as a viking reenactor).

Life in the dark ages was nasty, brutal and short, more so the further down the class system you go.

I tend to agree with Altheus. The Laxdaela Saga in particular depicts some of the most empowered women characters anywhere in literature until modern times. I find it strange how This Ends Tonight calls out the culture as illiterate. While most people in any medieval society were illiterate, the Icelandic Sagas are one of the greatest collections of pre-modern literature. For example, take this passage from the Laxdaela Saga:

QuoteUnn now got ready to go away from the Faroe Isles, and made it known to her shipmates that she was going to Iceland. She had with her Olaf "Feilan," the son of Thorstein, and those of his sisters who were unmarried. After that she put to sea, and, the weather being favourable, she came with her ship to the south of Iceland to Pumice-Course (Vikrarskeid). There they had their ship broken into splinters, but all the men and goods were saved. After that she went to find Helgi, her brother, followed by twenty men; and when she came there he went out to meet her, and bade her come stay with him with ten of her folk. She answered in anger, and said she had not known that he was such a churl; and she went away, being minded to find Bjorn, her brother in Broadfirth, and when he heard she was coming, he went to meet her with many followers, and greeted her warmly, and invited her and all her followers to stay with him, for he knew his sister's high-mindedness. She liked that right well, and thanked him for his lordly behaviour. She stayed there all the winter, and was entertained in the grandest manner, for there was no lack of means, and money was not spared.

Source: https://sagadb.org/laxdaela_saga.en

This is pretty striking for depicting a woman leading twenty men, and making aggressive demands of her brothers. Sure, the average woman wouldn't have this sort of power or freedom, but that it was even believable in a historical saga says a lot about the relative status of women.

Quote from: Altheus on February 03, 2021, 08:30:35 AM
Life in the dark ages was nasty, brutal and short, more so the further down the class system you go.

That's pretty much a myth that originated with 18–19th century thinkers who wanted to frame their present day as the high point of history.

Actual archeological evidence though is that the Dark Ages common folk were healthier, lived longer and had a better diet than their equivalents in the Roman Empire. The collapse of the Western Roman Empire was a net boon for everyone who wasn't part of the Roman aristocracy.

It wasn't until the Dark Ages gave way to the Medieval period c. AD 1000 and governments started to centralize again that the standard of living for the lower classes began to deteriorate and this was largely in proportion to the level of centralization and especially urbanization and the accompanying squalor (that the aforementioned folk with a vested interest in profiting off the labor of the urban poor wanted to assure everyone was MUCH better than living in the Dark Ages).

It's not an accident that the areas of most rapid technological progress (and the improved standard of living that comes with it) have almost universally been in the areas least regulated by a central authority. People don't change much, which is why history keeps rhyming.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2021, 11:26:40 AMSure, the average woman wouldn't have this sort of power or freedom, but that it was even believable in a historical saga says a lot about the relative status of women.

Well, most of the old stories - and many new ones - are warnings or exemplar. It's "don't be like this," or "you should be like this." It's usually easy to figure out when it's a warning, so if it's not a warning, it's exemplary. This is the role model they presented for women.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on January 29, 2021, 06:16:03 AM
https://blackfiskforlag.com/products/blood-feud/?fbclid=IwAR3fy0CzhWJwPgrQaWFDGHqzsWJg8TvKHJbhqBt3hx3lzNXw0-sqC82XI0c

'The goal of the game is to explore and experience toxic masculinity, while at the same time creating a thoughtful drama about relationships, competition and social consequences. With this game we want to make toxic masculinity easier to spot for a wider variety of people in our roleplaying communities—and encourage critical discussions about how men behave, and why.'

'There are also mechanics in place that deal specifically with the role of women in the game. The first one: there must always be at least one woman present in every scene. When the last woman in a scene leaves, the scene simply ends. We are only interested in what happens publicly when looking at honor, so what happens when women are not watching doesn't count.'

This sounds like more of a punishment than an actual game.

Where's the part about women killing their own babies? Is that covered as well?

Greetings!

Hmmm...no Game Master, no Dice Resolution mechanics. Just a narrative SJW circle-jerk is what this game is--if you want to call it a *game* even. The purpose is to "explore and experience toxic masculinity" in pre-Christian Scandinavia.

This is right along the lines of precisely why SJW games and gamers suck and are so pathetic and terrible. They are always trying to turn RPG's into a shitty pseudo-psychological therapy session.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: DocJones on February 02, 2021, 05:09:34 PM"They" would explain that the old woman had internalized misogyny.

Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2021, 11:26:40 AM

Quote from: Altheus on February 03, 2021, 08:30:35 AM

Quote from: This Ends Tonight on February 02, 2021, 09:58:48 PM

Quote from: Altheus on February 01, 2021, 05:15:42 PM
Norse women often held status and had a great deal of influence, could own property and generally had a pretty good deal for the viking period (863-1066).

Played to the hilt with the right sharp tongued, playful, women involved this game sounds like a right laugh. Swigging horns of mead, telling tales of ones deeds without coming across as a braggart, engaging in friendly contests with one-another, feasting while being served by the finest slaves taken in raids.

How much harder we have it trying to understand a millennia old culture, almost entirely illiterate, with cultural practices unlike any we could experience anywhere on Earth even if we wanted to. In my opinion, based on further reading on the matter, being a woman in Norse society probably would be experienced by one of us as extremely repressive using our modern standards.

That's why I qualified it as a pretty good deal for the time, compared to the lot of a great many women elsewhere in the world (limited knowledge of history outside of my time as a viking reenactor).

Life in the dark ages was nasty, brutal and short, more so the further down the class system you go.

I tend to agree with Altheus. The Laxdaela Saga in particular depicts some of the most empowered women characters anywhere in literature until modern times. I find it strange how This Ends Tonight calls out the culture as illiterate. While most people in any medieval society were illiterate, the Icelandic Sagas are one of the greatest collections of pre-modern literature. For example, take this passage from the Laxdaela Saga:

QuoteUnn now got ready to go away from the Faroe Isles, and made it known to her shipmates that she was going to Iceland. She had with her Olaf "Feilan," the son of Thorstein, and those of his sisters who were unmarried. After that she put to sea, and, the weather being favourable, she came with her ship to the south of Iceland to Pumice-Course (Vikrarskeid). There they had their ship broken into splinters, but all the men and goods were saved. After that she went to find Helgi, her brother, followed by twenty men; and when she came there he went out to meet her, and bade her come stay with him with ten of her folk. She answered in anger, and said she had not known that he was such a churl; and she went away, being minded to find Bjorn, her brother in Broadfirth, and when he heard she was coming, he went to meet her with many followers, and greeted her warmly, and invited her and all her followers to stay with him, for he knew his sister's high-mindedness. She liked that right well, and thanked him for his lordly behaviour. She stayed there all the winter, and was entertained in the grandest manner, for there was no lack of means, and money was not spared.

Source: https://sagadb.org/laxdaela_saga.en

This is pretty striking for depicting a woman leading twenty men, and making aggressive demands of her brothers. Sure, the average woman wouldn't have this sort of power or freedom, but that it was even believable in a historical saga says a lot about the relative status of women.

The situation is complex.  And it gets especially complex when we try to use Icelandinc sagas written in Christian times as evidence for life during the viking period.

In many ways the women in the sagas do seem to have a relatively good deal of power and independence.  Certainly more so than women in supposedly more civilised societies of the time such as the Eastern Roman Empire or the Arabic Caliphate.

On the other hand, 'toxic masculinity' is probably a good description of a lot of male behaviour during viking times.  Ibn Fadlan's description of the ship burial is a good example (it's often said that we can't trust Ibn Fadlan's description of the ship burial as accurate for vikings generally, as the Rus he met had drifted culturally from their scandinavian origins - and while this may be true, it also may not - at least in regards to the events he describes - which seem to match up reasonably well with Scandinavian archtectural finds. There's a lot we don't know).

And while it may be nice to think of Viking women as warriors, and there are some accounts of viking women fighting - there isn't really good evidence that it was particularly common.

The other thing is that viking society was a slave owning society and Ibn Fadlan depicts the more unpleasant sexual side of that slave owning society.  It's also thought by some that pre-Christian Scandinavia may have been polygamous.  (And of course most of the early female population of iceland seem to have been irish slaves)

Basically viking history has gone through a period of sanitisation and that seems to have been ending more recently as historians have begun to realise the extent of the slave trading that seems to have taken place.

However,

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 30, 2021, 06:41:55 PM
So the idea that masculine "honour" only exists in the physical presence of women is a nonsense the authour must have got from some incel forum. And this is the first problem with doing roleplaying games as social and historical education: the authour rarely knows anything about society or history. And the second problem is of course that it's boring and cringey.

It's hard to argue with this.  I find the idea that masculine ideas of honour were targetted specifically at a female audience somewhat bizarre.

Quote from: TJS on February 03, 2021, 09:23:10 PMI find the idea that masculine ideas of honour were targetted specifically at a female audience somewhat bizarre.

It's just some modern incel or SJW's idea of masculinity. "Surely the only reason to do this is to get laid?" No, bro, just no.