What version of the various rules there have been over the years for gunpowder weapons do you personally prefer, supposing that you do use guns occasionally at least in your D&D games?

For me, my personal favorite have always been to give damage by quality/size of the weapons (anything from a d4 to a d10), and for the damage to "explode" (that is, if you roll max damage you roll another die and add it to the total).

Incidentally, what kind of level of frequency do you like having these weapons in your games? Personally, I like for them to be quite expensive and only available for purchase in metropolises.

RPGPundit

you'll likely hate this but...

Everybody has an AC 10 (descending) against all firearms- unless they have some kind of techo-armor. This rule also applies to energy weapons

Anyone hit by a firearm has to roll a saving throw*. If they miss the saving throw they have to take a spin on the super brutal 1d4 wound table. This rule also apples to arrows** and energy weapons. If they make the save they take 1d6 damage.

Wound table:
Roll 1d4

1. Minor Wound: 1d4 days to heal [-1 to all die rolls and - 1d4-1 to movement rate during the recovery period].

2. Major Wound: 2d8+2 days to heal [-3 to all die rolls and -1d6+1 to movement rate during recovery period].

3. Grievous Wound: d30 +10 days to heal. [-6 to all die rolls and movement reduced to 1 during recovery period]. Note: A character with a grievous wound must be stabilized within 10 rounds or make a successful saving throw otherwise the wound becomes a mortal wound, and all related conditions apply.

4. Mortal wound: Save or die. A successful save reduces the damage to a Grievous Wound with doubled recovery time. A failed save results in death in 1d6-1 rounds. AT THE REFEREE'S DISCRETION dead character may be healed by miraculous means (super science or magic) for 1d100 rounds after death.




I think this stuff is pretty rare. You can buy it in few places, but revolvers and such are super expensive and energy weapons are pretty much found as treasure only (as opposed to being purchased). My thinking is that energy weapons are not being manufactured anymore, and the local powers that be snatch them off the market before they become generally available.


*I use the unified save from S&W.
** I have some special rules for arrows and shields too.

Can't hold back progress. If black powder weaposn are effective in your world, they will will become pervasive in a matter of years and in doing so get cheaper to produce. It's hard to imagine adventurers who can seemingly so casually afford all sort of magical weapons and armour to draw the line at guns. Likewise imagine the king who can either train his peasants from childhood to use the longbow, or splash out for some muskets and 2 weeks training.

The only thing that could keep it back is an actual ban (like crossbows in Europe or firearms in Japan) or cheaper alternatives. If wands of magic missle were cheaper to produce than muskets, then the of course the technology would not really take off.

Quote from: Soylent Green;411735Can't hold back progress. If black powder weaposn are effective in your world, they will will become pervasive in a matter of years and in doing so get cheaper to produce.

Metal is scarce and outside of a few monopolistic mining interests can only be obtained at risk. There is nothing resembling a modern manufacture base. When guns are made they are made by smiths. One at a time. Demand is low because people don't often fight inside the cities. Very few people venture outside the cities.
 

Quote from: Soylent Green;411735It's hard to imagine adventurers who can seemingly so casually afford all sort of magical weapons and armour to draw the line at guns. Likewise imagine the king who can either train his peasants from childhood to use the longbow, or splash out for some muskets and 2 weeks training.

Magic weapons are super rare in my setting.
There are no standing armies. Civilization is dying, large swaths of wilderness exist between settlements. No one has a standing army of any significant size. it is virtually impossible for large groups to travel long distances, because living off the land is not really an option.

Quote from: Soylent Green;411735The only thing that could keep it back is an actual ban (like crossbows in Europe or firearms in Japan) or cheaper alternatives. If wands of magic missle were cheaper to produce than muskets, then the of course the technology would not really take off.

Modern economics do not necessarily apply to a fantasy setting. I violate the laws of physics and biology all the time- the law of supply and demand is nothing in comparison.

Firearms usually do high damage, for a sword, and crit on 18+. They ignore armor, though dex still applies when taking cover.

Against a commoner, a firearm is certain death, but the fighting ability of even a 3rd level character is so far beyond any real world person that I see no reason to tarnish their greatness by acting like a mere gun can hurt them.

In my opinion, a bullet that "strikes" for 12 damage against someone with 40 hit points was deflected off a masterwork sword. D&D characters are so unbelievably superhuman that you can't make sense of them by attributing the vulnerabilities of real people to them.

Played in a couple of D&D games (3.0 and 3.5) set in the Warhammer World and so with gun rules. Just used the DMG versions - slow reload times but lots of damage (2d6 or 2d8). In the 3.5 game most of the PCs didn't use them to due to class/proficiency issues - we had a Brettonian paladin (code of conduct issues), a dwarf cleric (my PC), a druid from Araby (nonproficient, though she could use a great scimitar due to Central Casting), plus various other things from player #4 (a fighter then a rogue then a monk - none used guns).
The previous game had about 2/4 PCs with guns (the merchant rogue and a Bright Mage liked guns; the cleric of "Lanshor" and the Tilean noble didn't particularly).

I didn't mind Arquebus rolling up damage on a "10" in 2nd ed, but I have math nazi objections to the max damage rolling up in 3.5 - weapon size does funny things to this, like gnomes getting to roll up their damage more often.

Quite liked T&Ts approach to Gunnes as well - you can buy them but they sometimes explode, and cost upwards of 4000 Gold Pieces to buy.

Remember that black powder weapons were highly susceptible to weather and even relative humidity. You either have rules for that or ignore the reality of BP weapons, and if you do that why bother?

Another thing to keep in mind is that black powder weapons require a fair bit of practice to be proficient in them. Hell the reload sequence alone is particularly involved and if you get it wrong you can permanently damage the gun. When gunpowder weapons became widely used in the armies of our world it was nothing for musketeers to drill on reload techniques for weeks so that they could do it in correct sequence while an enemy was charging towards them. Therefore PCs who want to use them will have to practice extensively in their use and that practice will require lots of expendable material (powder and shot). An expensive proposition. Add to that the fact that early black powder weapons were very twitchy and it might limit their appeal.

As far as how I have them work in combat: High damage, slow reload (possibly requiring a reload test is user is having to rush) and almost always armor piercing. I have allowed players to track down specialty alchemist/forgers who can offer a breastplate or helmet that has been 'proofed' against gun shot. Meaning that it will offer some protection. But that's often just as expensive/time consuming as becoming proficient in a gun.

On a side note, The Fantasy Trip's world of Cidri had firearms (blunderbuss and arquebuss). One of the ways they limited access was having one of the active ingredients in the Alchemy Guild's gunpowder recipe being dragon crap. Making gunpowder therefore was very expensive and very dangerious. If a group of adventurers could find a dragon's preferred 'drop zone' they could really clean up.

Quote from: Cylonophile;411765Remember that black powder weapons were highly susceptible to weather and even relative humidity. You either have rules for that or ignore the reality of BP weapons, and if you do that why bother?

It all comes down to how abstractly you want to model given elements of your game world. Some things you might want to pixel bitch about; others you might want to let slide.

I'm still working through how far I want to go right now.

In the game / setting I am working on, I am doing "all weapons do base D6" and gun damage explode on 6s.   But more importantly, guns spook animals and spirits.

Quote from: RPGPundit;411727What version of the various rules there have been over the years for gunpowder weapons do you personally prefer, supposing that you do use guns occasionally at least in your D&D games?

Ptolus firearms. Firearms do a reasonable amount of damage (d8, d10, d12, 2d8 or 3d6 depending on the weapon), they do have armor-piercing abilities, just as much as the longbow. They therefore all have x3 critical multiplier in the abstract D&D 3.5 damage system. All firearms (but for the Dwarves' and the Shuul's) are relics of the past glory of the Tarsis Empire. They might have been much more powerful weapons in the past, but these secrets are likely to have been lost.

Let me also mention that this is for non-magical firearms. They CAN be magical, as well as their ammunitions, in Ptolus.

Quote from: RPGPundit;411727Incidentally, what kind of level of frequency do you like having these weapons in your games? Personally, I like for them to be quite expensive and only available for purchase in metropolises.

RPGPundit

They are quite expensive in Ptolus (250 GP for a dragon pistol to 2,000 GP for a repeater rifle) and relatively rare, as I just explained. I like them to make some appearances in my games, and thus for the PCs to potentially acquire them, but I don't make it a habit.

Quote from: Aos;411733you'll likely hate this but...

I don't. Since these are super-rare items on the Metal Earth, it's logical to almost treat them like artifacts, and have specific uses for them aside from the classic weapon damage. Context is what matters to me.

Quote from: Benoist;411806I don't. Since these are super-rare items on the Metal Earth, it's logical to almost treat them like artifacts, and have specific uses for them aside from the classic weapon damage. Context is what matters to me.

I'm starting a huge, long play test starting in January. I suspect a lot of this stuff will change a little after we get rolling.   I really like the idea dangerous snipers and everyone running for cover as soon as a shot rings out. PCs can be that kind of deadly too. I've already got a player who wants to have a lizard man sniper as a PC. Kind of like Hawkeye from The Last of the Mahicans, but you know, a reptile.

Yeah. There's always that fear that someone giving PCs some cool stuff will wreck the game somehow. I don't subscribe to this point of view. Players should have stuff to play with, too.

And the reptile sniper idea is neat.

Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;411783Another thing to keep in mind is that black powder weapons require a fair bit of practice to be proficient in them. Hell the reload sequence alone is particularly involved and if you get it wrong you can permanently damage the gun. When gunpowder weapons became widely used in the armies of our world it was nothing for musketeers to drill on reload techniques for weeks so that they could do it in correct sequence while an enemy was charging towards them. Therefore PCs who want to use them will have to practice extensively in their use and that practice will require lots of expendable material (powder and shot). An expensive proposition. Add to that the fact that early black powder weapons were very twitchy and it might limit their appeal.

More training than a longbow? More expensive than magical elven chainmail?