Quote from: Arminius;869787Granted, I doubt that six-sided dice were hard to come by--apart from scavenging them from Yahtzee, Monopoly, or any of the kiddie Milton Bradley games, people needed them for gambling

Exactly. There were ubiquitous. That's why I suggested having the referee roll stats had nothing to do with a scarcity of dice.

Quote--but Gronan's point is reasonable for lots of other mechanics. That is, provided we assume that polyhedral dice were used very much at all for early D&D; remember there are some who believe that Chainmail was used extensively for dungeon adventures. Since I think they're wrong, this tidbit slightly reinforces my belief.

Everyone I knew used the alternate combat system and the saving throws both of which required a D20 and I believe the referee used a D12 for some of the wandering monster charts. I could be wrong, but I think the D4 and the D8 were initially unnecessary for any rule until Greyhawk added the variant hit dice system.

Gronan would know what the culture and practice was in Lake Geneva. Never having been there I wouldn't. But what those folks did wasn't what we did and our practice was uninfluenced by their culture. The only influences were the rules we read and our prior gaming culture. Most of us had been playing RISK since before Dave and Gary were running the precursor to D&D. So rolling one's own attack or defense was a natural thing for us to implement. And as you said, the referee had other things to do and to roll for. Waiting around while the referee rolled for both sides of a combat seems odd and less immersive on the player side to me than each player rolling there own attacks.

The original boxed set included a set of dice. It wasn't long before referees purchased extra dice to have more dice and mostly we let the players have some to use. I don't recall anyone rolling attacks for the players, but I might be forgetting how we first played the game. Saving throws kind of depended on what was being rolled for. Usually people let the player roll for that. So if your PC got Petrified it was your own damn fault for rolling bad.

Quote from: Omega;869854Now. but not necessarily then.

I was talking about 1974.

Quote from: Doughdee222;869905I still have in my bag dice with crayon in the numbers. Some of my dice are 35+ years old.

I still have all that stuff except for the chits which I promptly threw out as soon as I got dice.

Quote from: yosemitemike;869974I still have all that stuff except for the chits which I promptly threw out as soon as I got dice.

You hang onto those for in case you get a diceophobia player or the occasional randomphobe who also despises dice - but for god unknown reasons pulling counters from a cup is fine.

Quote from: Omega;870054You hang onto those for in case you get a diceophobia player or the occasional randomphobe who also despises dice - but for god unknown reasons pulling counters from a cup is fine.

That guy can use an app on his phone.

Tossing a die is not the same as knowing the algorithms the ref is using to decide what the number rolled means.

Quote from: Phillip;870200Tossing a die is not the same as knowing the algorithms the ref is using to decide what the number rolled means.

Agreed. And?

And it seemed like maybe the discussion was haring off to beat a horse that was dead on arrival. Don't mind me if I'm out of the loop; carry on!

Quote from: Bren;869912Exactly. There were ubiquitous. That's why I suggested having the referee roll stats had nothing to do with a scarcity of dice.

"Were you rolling your own characters, to-hit rolls, etc. during the pre-release Greyhawk games? When did that become standard practice in Lake Geneva, if ever? "

That is the question I was answering.  Notice that rolling of stats was not singled out.

And the answer is STILL "when we got our own dice."

When did you get your own dice?

Quote from: Phillip;869459Here's an image of the OD&D character sheet TSR produced:

This shows at least a different attitude than the AD&D sheets!

I'll say! They forgot Hit Points!

Quote from: ligedog;870238When did you get your own dice?

Sometime in late 1972 1973 Gary brought in some sets.  They were also offered by Edmund Scientific, a school supplies dealer, but Gary was apparently ordering them in enough quantity to make the price competitive if not the same (I no longer remember).

I know that in Sept 1773 when I moved up to Minneapolis I had at least two sets of the early polyhedra.  I don't remember if I had more.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;870475I know that in Sept 1773 when I moved up to Minneapolis I had at least two sets of the early polyhedra.  I don't remember if I had more.

Were you gaming with the Voyageurs or the Sioux?

Quote from: Bren;870480Were you gaming with the Voyageurs or the Sioux?

The Vikings. See also the game report found carved on a stone tablet in Kensington, Minnesota, in which the party is attacked by Skraelings.

The next question, of course, is Number Appearing, Hit Dice, and Armor Class.

Inquiring minds want to know...

Happy Holidays!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;870481The Vikings. See also the game report found carved on a stone tablet in Kensington, Minnesota, in which the party is attacked by Skraelings.

The next question, of course, is Number Appearing, Hit Dice, and Armor Class.

Inquiring minds want to know...

Happy Holidays!

And Chrine is still covering the General's ass. Well played good sir. Well played.

Quote from: Bren;870485And Chrine is still covering the General's ass. Well played good sir. Well played.

I never would have made it out of Milumanaya without him.