There's no reason to think a small publisher will auto-lose with lawfare vs. WotC.

WotC is playing with fire with the OGL pissing contest because a US ruling on an open license could have major implications FAR beyond our little pond of tabletop RPGs.

Because of that, if WotC sues a small publisher, it's quite possible WotC will find itself up against a pro-bono law firm backed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation or other highly supported orgs who could rally $$$ donations to support a major fight, especially if the law firm demonstrates that a ruling in WotC's favor could harm entire industries beyond gaming.

That's not to say that OSR publishers shouldn't cleanse their products of WotC's taint, that's just good for long term creativity and uniqueness of the OSR product.

But don't think WotC or Hasbro is invulnerable and omnipotent. Their heavy-handed noise about the OGL 1.0 might not impress an actual judge.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 19, 2023, 12:41:01 AM
There's no reason to think a small publisher will auto-lose with lawfare vs. WotC.

WotC is playing with fire with the OGL pissing contest because a US ruling on an open license could have major implications FAR beyond our little pond of tabletop RPGs.

Because of that, if WotC sues a small publisher, it's quite possible WotC will find itself up against a pro-bono law firm backed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation or other highly supported orgs who could rally $$$ donations to support a major fight, especially if the law firm demonstrates that a ruling in WotC's favor could harm entire industries beyond gaming.

That's not to say that OSR publishers shouldn't cleanse their products of WotC's taint, that's just good for long term creativity and uniqueness of the OSR product.

But don't think WotC or Hasbro is invulnerable and omnipotent. Their heavy-handed noise about the OGL 1.0 might not impress an actual judge.

Yeah, I'm still not interested on drawing the attention of the Eye of Sauron upon me.

Let's not forget the Gen X kids who grew up playing D&D are in their 40s and 50s. Some of them became lawyers, and we're already starting to see a few of them throwing their hats into the ring.

Hell, if you are a small enough publisher (under $7500 in TN, USA), you can take WotC to Small Claims Court over this and name Cynthia Williams as the Defendant - she would have to show up personally to defend her actions.

Quote from: jeff37923 on January 19, 2023, 05:53:01 AM
Hell, if you are a small enough publisher (under $7500 in TN, USA), you can take WotC to Small Claims Court over this and name Cynthia Williams as the Defendant - she would have to show up personally to defend her actions.

This, times a thousand... death of a thousand cuts. Brilliant.

Well after Pundits vid... I'll probably check out ORC because of the ACKS guy's involvement now. I never thought I'd be saying that considering Paizo's involvement.

The fuck I want a bunch of nambi-pambi safety tools or attempts to censor content.

Quote from: Zelen on January 18, 2023, 11:10:10 PM
You seem really hung up on issues that are clearly very minor or impossible to realistically enforce.

No one really cares if you have Tiamat & Bahamut as dragon gods or not. DragonLance has a similar-ish but obviously distinct mythology and it only takes the smallest bit of creativity to invent some new deity and write up a few unique myths or characteristics, even if the general outline is similar. Same with kobolds. Do you need kobolds, if you can have goblins, lizardmen, or any number of other creatures old or new?

Basic races like Elves and Dwarves are basically going to be impossible to nail anyone for unless you word-for-word copy them. There's thousands of sources to draw from and unless you're terminally uncreative, it's probably harder to not come up with your own twist than it is to do something exactly-the-same-but-worded-differently.

Obviously direct copy & paste of any content, whether that's creature & spell descriptions or something else, would be infringement. However unique expressions are almost inevitably going to have different nuances to them that make them unique, particularly in aggregate. Of course none of this is a guarantee against lawfare, but a good faith effort at creating something shouldn't fear that.

You are missing the point.  Let's use kobolds as an illustration.  They are, in fact, quite easy to use in a game without running any risk.  Just go back to the roots, which are small fey creatures in a mine--basically a Bavarian flavor of the more general goblin.  Sometimes, they morph into household fey, similar to brownies.  I mixed them with redcaps, to give them a more sinister modus operandi, then made their society distinct.  Like I said, easy.

But Chris didn't say "kobolds".  He said "reptilian kobolds".  As soon as you do that, let alone tie them to dragons, then that's asking for it.  Because even though that should be something that isn't a problem, it's a strong D&Dism, and a late D&Dism at that, given that early D&D kobolds were not reptilian at all.  Now, in a completely different game system, such as GURPS, sure you could have similar late D&D kobolds and probably be fine, as you said, as long as you rewrote them in your own words.

Besides, WotC kobolds suck.  Why would anyone want them in their game?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 19, 2023, 07:37:40 AM
Besides, WotC kobolds suck.  Why would anyone want them in their game?

Yeah, I have never seen the charm of them, outside of the character Deekin, from the Neverwinter Nights game. And that's a very setting/story specific character, who's "charming" in an annoying kinda way.

But I've never used Kobolds in my games, except for very early on when I started DMing. And that was decades ago, when Kobolds were still tiny dog people. Then they changed them to tiny lizard people on me, and I was like "WTF? Didn't they use to be dog people? You know what? Screw it! I don't even use Kobolds, I use Goblins all the time!"

The Kobold picture in the AD&D Monster Manual looks pretty reptilian to me

Quote from: VisionStorm on January 19, 2023, 08:02:10 AM

Yeah, I have never seen the charm of them, outside of the character Deekin, from the Neverwinter Nights game. And that's a very setting/story specific character, who's "charming" in an annoying kinda way.

But I've never used Kobolds in my games, except for very early on when I started DMing. And that was decades ago, when Kobolds were still tiny dog people. Then they changed them to tiny lizard people on me, and I was like "WTF? Didn't they use to be dog people? You know what? Screw it! I don't even use Kobolds, I use Goblins all the time!"

I never use both goblins and kobolds straight in the same game.  And if I want just one, I'll probably use goblins.  However, sometimes I want to split both of them off from the "early cannon fodder, bottom of the monster society" role and into something more extreme, which could go like this:

- goblins - almost feral sociopaths that only understand bullying and power, and will stab you in the back the moment they can see it, like a rabid badger hopped up on LSD--on a good day.
- kobolds - small fey with peculiar customs--sometimes not understandable by playable races, can be dealt with carefully, with some risk, similar to amoral elves in myths, but are friendly enough when there is mutual reason to trade goods, favors, information, etc.

I don't like goblins in the second role, usually, because it's another notch in the chain of turning them into just another race.  For some reason, kobolds have more resistance to that effect.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 19, 2023, 12:41:01 AM
There's no reason to think a small publisher will auto-lose with lawfare vs. WotC.

WotC is playing with fire with the OGL pissing contest because a US ruling on an open license could have major implications FAR beyond our little pond of tabletop RPGs.

Because of that, if WotC sues a small publisher, it's quite possible WotC will find itself up against a pro-bono law firm backed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation or other highly supported orgs who could rally $$$ donations to support a major fight, especially if the law firm demonstrates that a ruling in WotC's favor could harm entire industries beyond gaming.

That's not to say that OSR publishers shouldn't cleanse their products of WotC's taint, that's just good for long term creativity and uniqueness of the OSR product.

But don't think WotC or Hasbro is invulnerable and omnipotent. Their heavy-handed noise about the OGL 1.0 might not impress an actual judge.

As you pointed out, a small publisher could succeed with the support and help of fans and others. In my case I don't see that happening. Yes, if you win you get attorney's fees. But that presumes you can find an attorney who will take the case with the hope of winning and getting those fees. I could not afford to pay the money it would take to get there. So if I could not find a cooperative attorney, fans willing to make contributions, some not-for-profit lookign to take on my case, or lottery winnings... I would be out of luck.

Quote from: jeff37923 on January 19, 2023, 05:53:01 AM
Hell, if you are a small enough publisher (under $7500 in TN, USA), you can take WotC to Small Claims Court over this and name Cynthia Williams as the Defendant - she would have to show up personally to defend her actions.

And if you were not very careful you would end up getting the case dismissed with prejudice, and attorney's fees assessed against you. That is assuming they don't counter sue and move the case up into a higher court because of the massive claims they might make against you.

A very dangerous strategy.

Quote from: squirewaldo on January 19, 2023, 09:34:27 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on January 19, 2023, 05:53:01 AM
Hell, if you are a small enough publisher (under $7500 in TN, USA), you can take WotC to Small Claims Court over this and name Cynthia Williams as the Defendant - she would have to show up personally to defend her actions.

And if you were not very careful you would end up getting the case dismissed with prejudice, and attorney's fees assessed against you. That is assuming they don't counter sue and move the case up into a higher court because of the massive claims they might make against you.

A very dangerous strategy.

Check out what the rules are for where you live. There are some interesting stipulations on both what can go to Small Claims Court and how they can be prosecuted. It gives the little guy a chance.

Let us all remember when Hulk Hogan sued Gawker
and Peter Theil provided millions in backing for the Hulkmeister because he had issues with them himself. Those Gen X gamers mentioned earlier don't have to be actual lawyers.

Draft of the OGL1.2 just dropped on DnDBeyond. I leave it to others to dig into it.

https://www.dndbeyond.com/attachments/39j2li89/OGL1.2_DraftForDiscussionPurpose.pdf

That said, the The absolute deal breaker is right on page 2...

NOTICE OF DEAUTHORIZATION OF OGL 1.0a. The Open Game License 1.0a is no longer an authorized license. This
means that you may not use that version of the OGL, or any prior version, to publish SRD content after (effective
date). It does not mean that any content previously published under that version needs to update to this license.
Any previously published content remains licensed under whichever version of the OGL was in effect when you
published that content.