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Author Topic: Big Developments in the ORC License  (Read 7849 times)

GeekyBugle

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2023, 02:35:11 PM »
Anyone can file a motion to dismiss and then motion to sanction and fine those attorneys stupid enough to file such a frivolous law suit over things which simply cannot be copyrighted.
Or of course you could release nothing or cower like a pussy without clearing everything with the scary cartel known as Hasbro.

Yeah, fuck you too.
Come on and man up.  Don't fear the wotzi.  :-)
Start using words like arcane, kobold, lich, abjuration, illusion, conjuration, enchantment, red dragon, black dragon, ad infinitum in all your works.
Steal all the concepts and ideas from D&D for yourself.
I find it both sad and hilarious that some here use the word "fluff" to refer to what is actually protected creative expression and are hand wringing over what is not protected.

Why don't YOU put your money where your mouth is keyboard warrior?
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2023, 02:43:39 PM »
Yeah, but in the end I'm still broke, unless someone is willing to sign a binding contract and create a fund to pay for any such legal case with a clause included they'll keep paying until the case is resolved in my favor (meaning going to the supreme court if needed) and pay for my lost sales until I can manage to get Hasbro to do so I'm not risking it.

This is why we need a fund and backers (I think you suggest OSF or EFF in a different thread).

Hasbro is relying on "you can't afford to defend so we can't lose these lawsuits that have no merit". A standing fund means they have two choices:

1. Go for and risk losing a lot more than most people are willing to defer on before OGL 2.0
2. Stand off in an RPG version of MAD.

I said that the EFF MIGHT be convinced to help fight Hasbro yes, but I don't think they'll be willing to pay for everything.

So, all the big fish need to create such a common fund against frivolous lawsuits, come from wherever they might. IF the small fish can afford to do so they should also contribute to it.

Maybe find some lawyers willing to work fully or partially pro-bono would be a good thing too. Pay them a retainer fee or something.

Yes, with the money aspect covered (but it needs to cover enough the publisher can survive even with zero sales), then Hasbro stops being a  real threat. Unless they are REALLY stupid they would back down and if they don't then fuck around and find out.

But we need to remember that not ALL of this has been decided in court, so there's no legal precedence for some of the stuff, ergo there's a real risk a judge might go against us, therefore the fund needs a binding pledge from ALL the big fish to contribute to it until it's settled in the supreme court and to cover ALL expenses even fines or damages or whatever.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

DocJones

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2023, 02:50:54 PM »
Stop being a fucking retard.

It's real easy to talk big on a message board. How fucking tough will you be when some Hasbro process server drops a big steaming lawsuit on your doorstep? You'll need a lawyer -- which costs. And the point Geeky is making here is that Hasbro knows they won't be able to prove ownership easily (if at all). So they'll drag it out, as long as possible, to drain your funds and maybe force bankruptcy.

While it's not quite the same, I strongly recommend you review 'SLAPP' lawsuits, and why some states actually passed laws against that bullshit.
Here's a challenge for you.  List the copyright infringement lawsuits WotC has filed against others.
For the purpose of keeping it on point (copyright) ignore trademark and patent suits.
Just how litigious are they?

 

squirewaldo

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2023, 03:06:47 PM »
Stop being a fucking retard.

It's real easy to talk big on a message board. How fucking tough will you be when some Hasbro process server drops a big steaming lawsuit on your doorstep? You'll need a lawyer -- which costs. And the point Geeky is making here is that Hasbro knows they won't be able to prove ownership easily (if at all). So they'll drag it out, as long as possible, to drain your funds and maybe force bankruptcy.

While it's not quite the same, I strongly recommend you review 'SLAPP' lawsuits, and why some states actually passed laws against that bullshit.
Here's a challenge for you.  List the copyright infringement lawsuits WotC has filed against others.
For the purpose of keeping it on point (copyright) ignore trademark and patent suits.
Just how litigious are they?

What difference does it make? What is your point?

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2023, 03:09:16 PM »
Here's a challenge for you.  List the copyright infringement lawsuits WotC has filed against others.
For the purpose of keeping it on point (copyright) ignore trademark and patent suits.
Just how litigious are they?

When talking about the Woke and morons (but I repeat myself), and "past behavior indicates future behavior" calculations, there's only one thing you can safely count on:  If it's something so utterly outlandish that we state today, they'd never do that, you can bet that one of them is considering it.  Almost everyone in the French Revolution that ended up under the guillotine didn't see it coming until late, with a few still surprised when their heads separated from their bodies.  So it's prudent to prepare for the worst in these kind of cases, even if the likelihood of any specific thing is low.

There's courage and then there's reckless.  My point is just do your game (not depending on them), name things appropriately, and in the course of doing that, the game will probably be sufficiently diverged from D&D to avoid all the obvious pitfalls, and most of the non-obvious ones.  It will also, conveniently, be a better game than if it were aping others.  Then selectively apply some tweaks on the margins, where it really matters to make your game the way it should be.  Then things will probably be fine.  But keep in mind that they might not be if some Wankers of the Coast bully decides to take you on, and don't leave yourself wide open.


Chris24601

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2023, 03:44:03 PM »
I’m not trying to be belligerent, sorry if I came out like that.

So, your entire point is that you need to change MORE than the fluff on some pleces?

I don't think anyone has disagreed with that, but I might be wrong.
I think a lot of people are dancing around it and pretending it’s not nearly as big an issue as it is.

First among them being Paizo’s and it’s “we only included the OGL in PF2 as a formality.”

I dismiss that they are too incompetent to know how concept stacks = copyright. Which means they are lying through their teeth.

This is probably because they want all their customers and potential new customers to think what they’re going to have to release after Hasbro drops its OGL2.0 bomb will look exactly like the off-brand D&D everyone’s grown accustomed to over the last two decades and not some mutant hybrid where some concept or another critical to each person’s favorite race or class is going to have to change in some way so it’s not as clear a carbon copy of WotC’s copyrighted concept stack.

Either that or they’re banking on someone (perhaps even themselves) stepping up to defend the OGL1.0a that allows access to the 3.5eSRD or that Hasbro won’t come after all the third parties they hoped to capture in their 1.1 net who refused to step into their “oh so clever” trap (its not clever, but I’m sure they think it was and they’re butthurt in a way that dwarfs even Wile E. Coyote after the Roadrunner sticks out his tongue and zips away… ego is a helluva drug).

Regardless. I think a lot of people (not necessarily here) are indeed downplaying all the mechanical and artistic changes that are going to end following on from needing to match things up with different concept stacks.

I think to an extent it’s understandable too. The Hasbro/WotC OGL1.1/2.0 is a bit like a sudden cancer diagnosis for a non-trivial part of the industry. It means even if you survive nothing will be the same again and cycling through the stages of grief/loss (one of which is denial) is pretty natural and even healthy part of dealing with it.

But the acceptance stage is everyone’s favorite offbrand D&D system is going to be changed in some way if no one defends the OGL1.0a and it’s NOT going to be exactly the system it was before if they want to keep releasing new products… and each content creator who carries on will be prioritizing which parts of their concept stacks are critical to keep and which they can afford to throw away in going forward.

And I do think looking at a bunch of the “never OGL” systems is a good idea. Less for the “they have X so we can use it outside the OGL” and more at “they have X, but here’s Y and Z that are different in their expression of it” because that’s where the important lesson of landing outside what an ego-bruised Hasbro/WotC exec can reasonably go after lies.

Lord knows, with WotC likely to be extra litigious in the near future and while I’m finishing up my art, my parameters have shifted towards more wizard magic = sufficiently advanced technology” and anachronistic post-apocalyptic attire (ex. visible zippers, golems that are clearly robotic rather than animated armor) just because that’s one step further away from the D&D concept stack.

By contrast, before this all exploded I was much more cagey about the nature of my setting’s pre-Cataclysm world and that wizard magic “could” be sufficiently advanced technology or more traditional depending on an individual GMs desires. Now a GM is still certainly able to mix it up however they desire, but the default presented will now be a more deliberately Thundarr-like environment with clearly hypermodern ruins and stylings for clothing, weapons and armor.

Yes, some D&D settings have had their wacky sci-fi ruins… but most of those haven’t been central to D&D’s published settings in quite some time (rather it has been more crystals and togas style with magic aping modern conveniences) and post apocalypse filled with magic and superscience is generic enough an expression that my concept stack is neither Thundarr nor any of the old D&D settings which had a few such elements in them.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2023, 03:48:48 PM by Chris24601 »

Bruwulf

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2023, 03:57:19 PM »
Stop being a fucking retard.

It's real easy to talk big on a message board. How fucking tough will you be when some Hasbro process server drops a big steaming lawsuit on your doorstep? You'll need a lawyer -- which costs. And the point Geeky is making here is that Hasbro knows they won't be able to prove ownership easily (if at all). So they'll drag it out, as long as possible, to drain your funds and maybe force bankruptcy.

While it's not quite the same, I strongly recommend you review 'SLAPP' lawsuits, and why some states actually passed laws against that bullshit.
Here's a challenge for you.  List the copyright infringement lawsuits WotC has filed against others.
For the purpose of keeping it on point (copyright) ignore trademark and patent suits.
Just how litigious are they?

Maaaaan, I'm one of the more vocal "It's not that big a deal, guys" folks here, and even I'm not naive enough to not realize we're in a different era now after the 1.1 leak. WotC has very clearly announced a shift in goals and priorities, including demonstrating a desire to shut down the old status quo. It would be ridiculous to just assume that because they've never sued before over this stuff means they never will going forward now. They may not, true, but there's nothing like a guarantee they won't.

VisionStorm

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2023, 04:07:33 PM »
- the arcane/divine casting divide

This is not a divide restricted to D&D, and never has been. In fact, it began in the real world: witchcraft, sorceries, and divinations have been forbidden to worshippers of Christianity since the beginning.

More, it's appeared in other games going back to 1991 at least, such as TORG: not only are Miracles and Magic two different rules subsystems, they're governed by two different axioms!

Use this with impunity.

It goes way back than Christianity, Jews had the same restrictions, after all the Old Testament is nothing but a part of their holy book. So it's at least 2023+ years old.

Even the Maya who allegedly did not make the distinction had the priests who "performed miracles", the white witches and the black witches (who often could be the same person depending on how they were using their "powers".

You find the same division almost in every culture you find going back to the Summerians. gods on one side, demons on the other with sometimes a grey area where witchcraft wasn't forbidden as long as it wasn't black witchcraft.

Social/Religious prohibitions are not the same as fundamentally different systems of magic. Black vs White magic is more akin to “Magic Schools” than completely different ways of using magic. Within real life mystical traditions anyone could use either type, it’s just that “Black Magic” is frowned upon and has negative spiritual consequences. But you could still try it if you dare, and most of what we take for “wizard” magic today originates from Hermetic traditions that call upon angelic beings and were mixed up with Abrahamic religions, even if the mainstream forms of those religions are against magic or consider it heretical.

Oh, but they ARE different systems of "magic"! Praying to God for a miracle is very different from working with demons (even if they have fooled you into thinking they are angels):

Deuteronomy 18: 9-12
Exodus 220:18
Leviticus 20:27
Job 1:12
2 Corinthians 4:4
Revelation 20:2
Exodus 8:7
Genesis 3:5

Now, I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just providing EVIDENCE that under Abrahamic Law Witchcraft isn't the same as praying for a miracle, because the first comes from the devil and the second comes from God.

You can disbelieve as hard as you want, what you can't do is come and re-interpret thousands of years of Theology to make the religion say something it doesn't say.

Jews believed Witchcraft to be of the devil, either through revelation as religious people think or through osmosis taking it from their neighborgs and enslavers.

OR...

Run of the mill Christians were fooled by the Church into believing that 1) magic is evil, and 2) miracles ain't magic. But ALL of it is magic! And Christian mystics that knew better had to keep shut, cuz they'd be burned as heretics if they didn't. Even Jews had the Kabbalah and Muslims had Sufism.

A rose by any other name is still a stinky red colored flower. And a spell recited under the cover of prayer, and sanctioned by the religious institution that would otherwise execute you as heathen or heretic, is still attempting to invoke powers that anyone else would recognize as MAGIC.  :P

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2023, 04:09:40 PM »
D&D basically invented a number of fantasy tropes that are widely used even outside of ttrpgs. Video games, novels, animes... Now Hasbro is trying to copyright claim all of that, frivolously or not, and it's going to have consequences.

Does Hasbro have grounds to sue anyone who uses drow, gnolls, daos, liches, mohrgs, and whatever else can be pretty clearly traced back to D&D without meaningful precedent in prior folklore or literature? How much do you have to change to avoid litigation? Well, we're about to find out.


DocJones

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2023, 04:12:36 PM »
Here's a challenge for you.  List the copyright infringement lawsuits WotC has filed against others.
For the purpose of keeping it on point (copyright) ignore trademark and patent suits.
Just how litigious are they?

What difference does it make? What is your point?
My point is that it's WotC's job to spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt rather than the posters.


GeekyBugle

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2023, 04:12:44 PM »
Stop being a fucking retard.

It's real easy to talk big on a message board. How fucking tough will you be when some Hasbro process server drops a big steaming lawsuit on your doorstep? You'll need a lawyer -- which costs. And the point Geeky is making here is that Hasbro knows they won't be able to prove ownership easily (if at all). So they'll drag it out, as long as possible, to drain your funds and maybe force bankruptcy.

While it's not quite the same, I strongly recommend you review 'SLAPP' lawsuits, and why some states actually passed laws against that bullshit.
Here's a challenge for you.  List the copyright infringement lawsuits WotC has filed against others.
For the purpose of keeping it on point (copyright) ignore trademark and patent suits.
Just how litigious are they?

Because WotC today is the exact same WotC of a year ago nothing has changed on their attitude towards the rest of the industry, competitors and 3PP alike.

You're not only a keyboard warrior telling others to jump into a fight you yourself are too much of a coward to jump into, you're also retarded.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

GeekyBugle

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2023, 04:19:20 PM »
- the arcane/divine casting divide

This is not a divide restricted to D&D, and never has been. In fact, it began in the real world: witchcraft, sorceries, and divinations have been forbidden to worshippers of Christianity since the beginning.

More, it's appeared in other games going back to 1991 at least, such as TORG: not only are Miracles and Magic two different rules subsystems, they're governed by two different axioms!

Use this with impunity.

It goes way back than Christianity, Jews had the same restrictions, after all the Old Testament is nothing but a part of their holy book. So it's at least 2023+ years old.

Even the Maya who allegedly did not make the distinction had the priests who "performed miracles", the white witches and the black witches (who often could be the same person depending on how they were using their "powers".

You find the same division almost in every culture you find going back to the Summerians. gods on one side, demons on the other with sometimes a grey area where witchcraft wasn't forbidden as long as it wasn't black witchcraft.

Social/Religious prohibitions are not the same as fundamentally different systems of magic. Black vs White magic is more akin to “Magic Schools” than completely different ways of using magic. Within real life mystical traditions anyone could use either type, it’s just that “Black Magic” is frowned upon and has negative spiritual consequences. But you could still try it if you dare, and most of what we take for “wizard” magic today originates from Hermetic traditions that call upon angelic beings and were mixed up with Abrahamic religions, even if the mainstream forms of those religions are against magic or consider it heretical.

Oh, but they ARE different systems of "magic"! Praying to God for a miracle is very different from working with demons (even if they have fooled you into thinking they are angels):

Deuteronomy 18: 9-12
Exodus 220:18
Leviticus 20:27
Job 1:12
2 Corinthians 4:4
Revelation 20:2
Exodus 8:7
Genesis 3:5

Now, I'm not trying to convert anyone, I'm just providing EVIDENCE that under Abrahamic Law Witchcraft isn't the same as praying for a miracle, because the first comes from the devil and the second comes from God.

You can disbelieve as hard as you want, what you can't do is come and re-interpret thousands of years of Theology to make the religion say something it doesn't say.

Jews believed Witchcraft to be of the devil, either through revelation as religious people think or through osmosis taking it from their neighborgs and enslavers.

OR...

Run of the mill Christians were fooled by the Church into believing that 1) magic is evil, and 2) miracles ain't magic. But ALL of it is magic! And Christian mystics that knew better had to keep shut, cuz they'd be burned as heretics if they didn't. Even Jews had the Kabbalah and Muslims had Sufism.

A rose by any other name is still a stinky red colored flower. And a spell recited under the cover of prayer, and sanctioned by the religious institution that would otherwise execute you as heathen or heretic, is still attempting to invoke powers that anyone else would recognize as MAGIC.  :P

Again, the argument ISN'T about if Jews, Christians, Etc are correct or not, it's about 2000+ years of such divide being on the public consciousness.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/magic-supernatural-phenomenon/History-of-magic-in-Western-worldviews

IDGAFF if you believe one way, the other or neither; I'm arguing from the point of view of if it was a TSR invention. It's not.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

PulpHerb

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2023, 04:33:30 PM »
I said that the EFF MIGHT be convinced to help fight Hasbro yes, but I don't think they'll be willing to pay for everything.

So, all the big fish need to create such a common fund against frivolous lawsuits, come from wherever they might. IF the small fish can afford to do so they should also contribute to it.

Maybe find some lawyers willing to work fully or partially pro-bono would be a good thing too. Pay them a retainer fee or something.

Yes, with the money aspect covered (but it needs to cover enough the publisher can survive even with zero sales), then Hasbro stops being a  real threat. Unless they are REALLY stupid they would back down and if they don't then fuck around and find out.

But we need to remember that not ALL of this has been decided in court, so there's no legal precedence for some of the stuff, ergo there's a real risk a judge might go against us, therefore the fund needs a binding pledge from ALL the big fish to contribute to it until it's settled in the supreme court and to cover ALL expenses even fines or damages or whatever.

If memory serves Kenzer of Kenzer & Co is not just a lawyer, but an IP specialist at that. It was part of how the HM 4 license was negotiated because Wizards did a no-no and he called them on it.

I'd like to hear his opinion on this and what to do.

rocksfalleverybodydies

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2023, 04:34:34 PM »
So will Hasbro/WotC have to purchase every single product released in the OSR vein, to check for any legal gotchas?  Maybe the OSR should do print only so they have to purchase every book, module supplement, etc. and have someone physically read it.  Takes time to scan a book.  Maybe they're replacing Crawford or Perkins with a bunch of quick readers to save on costs.

Will it be like taxes?  Going after the smaller individual publisher might be easier as they will likely get their naughty money with a legal threat and save on court costs.

I wonder how much they would ask for damages?  Maybe just a cut of the sales to date, or some sum they pull out of their legal ass.

Feels like the MPA for RPG's.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Big Developments in the ORC License
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2023, 04:36:09 PM »
I said that the EFF MIGHT be convinced to help fight Hasbro yes, but I don't think they'll be willing to pay for everything.

So, all the big fish need to create such a common fund against frivolous lawsuits, come from wherever they might. IF the small fish can afford to do so they should also contribute to it.

Maybe find some lawyers willing to work fully or partially pro-bono would be a good thing too. Pay them a retainer fee or something.

Yes, with the money aspect covered (but it needs to cover enough the publisher can survive even with zero sales), then Hasbro stops being a  real threat. Unless they are REALLY stupid they would back down and if they don't then fuck around and find out.

But we need to remember that not ALL of this has been decided in court, so there's no legal precedence for some of the stuff, ergo there's a real risk a judge might go against us, therefore the fund needs a binding pledge from ALL the big fish to contribute to it until it's settled in the supreme court and to cover ALL expenses even fines or damages or whatever.

If memory serves Kenzer of Kenzer & Co is not just a lawyer, but an IP specialist at that. It was part of how the HM 4 license was negotiated because Wizards did a no-no and he called them on it.

I'd like to hear his opinion on this and what to do.

That would be great but:

You'd need to pay him
He probably would need to do a lot of reading of the games
His informed opinion would probably be along the lines of "You'll probaly win but this, this and this hasn't been settled in court so it's a risk"


Remember they can drag it until you quit thus winning by default and you are broke.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell