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Author Topic: The Alinksy OSR Livestream  (Read 928 times)

RPGPundit

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The Alinksy OSR Livestream
« on: February 14, 2021, 05:12:42 PM »
Sunday's livestream went very well. Talked about the Hickman incident, and about why everyone who wants to fight the SJWs should be studying Saul Alinksy, plus much more and some great questions/comments from the chat!

« Last Edit: February 16, 2021, 04:13:12 PM by RPGPundit »
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Re: The Alinksy OSR Livestream
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2021, 04:13:58 PM »
I should have figured out how I can just modify these thread titles from a pre-announcement to a post-breakdown long ago!
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


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engrgmr

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Re: The Alinksy OSR Livestream
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2021, 12:11:57 PM »
Excellent points on the one sided rules of the cancel culture.  A key to defeating it and maintaining a rich variety of game development is to have the discipline to apply the same rules to all sides.  The core problem is that people just want to cancel or censor ideas that they find objectional. 

Erase history to forget that for the past 150 years various socialist governments heavily applied the weapon of censorship, including the socialist country that the cancel culture persistently denies was socialist (but Indiana Jones knows better).  I cannot think of any RPG products coming out of those societies.  While that happened nations with freedom of speech and free markets fostered ingenuity and creativity that produced just about all the RPG games and settings existing today.

If a group of players wants to play a game where humans, orcs, and goblins are all the same that is fine with me, just don't deny access to traditional RPG materials or the development of new RPG materials that apply differences to fictional species.

Maybe we need a game setting where a T-Rex and a Triceratops of equal traits protest together at the same communal farm and organic salad bar?

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Re: The Alinksy OSR Livestream
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2021, 10:14:44 AM »
Quote
I cannot think of any RPG products coming out of those societies. 

Then you'd be wrong.
In fact native RPGs begun to rise in Warsaw Pact countries in 80's - bit after Americans, but then Americans invented it - so of course it took some time to reach other places.
And after fall of communism - quite a lot of local systems were produced. Now not many of them was translated because with oversaturation of American market with English-language products, generally rarely non-English written products are translated, why even try with such amount of English material - though there were exceptions like German The Dark Eye.

But those are well rare exceptions, so expect players from those countries to have much better grasp of both local and American RPG market, than Americans to have grasp of any market sans their own. Same with movies.

So I honestly wonder - how many RPG system that were published not in English do you know my freedom-loving friend.

engrgmr

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Re: The Alinksy OSR Livestream
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2021, 12:15:34 PM »
more excellent points.

Consider in the 1980's when Warsaw pact countries officially had communist governments and heavy censorship (Look into the film productions of Henryk Sienkiewicz novels as examples, because the Eastern Block film companies needed to work around censorship in translating the novels to film.), how well did those citizens agree with that censorship?  Did the general populations of Poland, Hungry, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, etc. struggle against the imposed censorship to produce what they could?  Did they look at the freedom to create allowed to their Western counterparts?
 Those creators maybe had heroic attitudes to create, but their efforts were throttled by oppressive regulations.  Censorship is bad for creativity and other reasons.  The censors are bad, not the creators being suppressed.

With that said, the modern censorship we see today may be attempting to bypass government regulations in countries where government censorship is against the most ultimate laws by enforcing censorship through private entities.  The loophole where maybe the attempted censorship is happening is that many governments cannot force private entities to spend resources, so a private entity can be pressured to decide whom may not use there resources.  The solution to this is small independent authors and platforms maintaining the freedom to publish what they want, because hypothetically a large publisher that started in the Western Hemisphere where censorship is fundamentally illegal could be forced to rewrite its intellectual properties (IP) to sell product in Eastern Hemisphere where censorship is strong.

As a hypothetical example, a publisher could have an IP about a band of freedom fighters rebelling against some oppressive overlord.  That IP could could be popular for maybe 40 years.  Now that publisher maybe wants to sell in the East, but a story about heroic freedom fighters could not sit well with censors.  The publisher tries to develop a revised IP where the updated version discredits the freedom fighters as sellouts to power and money.  The publisher maybe even fires certain creators, because they are too strongly to connected to the original IP disapproved by the new sensors.  By doing that the publisher's poor attempt to appease new sensors could completely backfire, damage the product, and drive away the original fans.

For another hypothetical example, a publisher could have a 40 year old IP where some characters get mystical powers from gods, and their ability to wield those powers is related to how true they follow those gods.  Now attempting to expand markets they hit the sensors where gods and mysitcal powers are a problem.  In response they rewrite the IP to poor results.

What is the solution to these problems?  We cannot stop the large private entities from making bad decisions against our small person wills.  Instead we become the small band of freedom creators and publishers producing our own IPs the way we like. 

Modern anti-censorship regulations are based on the guidance of Ben Franklin (the small publisher) and the philosophical vision of Voltaire.  We need to keep their spirit for free speech before the cancel culture erases them.

Hmmm... a long long time ago Ben Franklin provided guidance to a freedom fighting farmer turned soldier named Tadeusz Kościuszko from a land far away.  Kościuszko became the hero of the turning point Battle of Saratoga.  Maybe I could develop a story about an old guru named Ben that guides a poor dirt farmer into an intergalactic revolution and that dirt farmer becomes the hero of a turning point battle?  Nah, that could never get passed censors.

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Re: The Alinksy OSR Livestream
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2021, 04:40:54 PM »
Quote
Consider in the 1980's when Warsaw pact countries officially had communist governments and heavy censorship (Look into the film productions of Henryk Sienkiewicz novels as examples, because the Eastern Block film companies needed to work around censorship in translating the novels to film.), how well did those citizens agree with that censorship?  Did the general populations of Poland, Hungry, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, etc. struggle against the imposed censorship to produce what they could?  Did they look at the freedom to create allowed to their Western counterparts?
 Those creators maybe had heroic attitudes to create, but their efforts were throttled by oppressive regulations.  Censorship is bad for creativity and other reasons.  The censors are bad, not the creators being suppressed.

Considering state of art in post-communist Poland, compared to communist Poland I honestly think sometimes that throttling culture with some limitations is not a bad thing, sir.
Even with Sienkiewicz novels - truly the first one "By Fire and Sword" was not filmed in those years due to its description of Cossacks (ergo ethnic Rusyn) people in Ukraine conflict vs. Nobility (mostly also Rusyn but subject to Polish Crown). (Ironically enough novels written during partition period suffered probably more from censorship - as all mentions about Russia and Moscow has to be very very limited, despite important Moscow influence), but both "Deluge" and "Colonel Wołodyjowski" are considered classic movies. When Hoffman finally did first part, without censorship, well results were far from excellent. Many Polish satirical groups, cabarets just lost their mojo without their constant play with censorship - now they can write whatever they wanted, and that took need to be smart.

Communists were bad, but it took Polish culture like 25 years to recover from fall of communism, and lack of censorship. History can be really ironic. (Now of course it depends of severity of censorship - as usual, balance between limitations and desires - it's really kinda like RPG :) )

But in terms of RPG it was not really a thing. The RPGs that wandered to Poland were first xerocopies of various systems, it started to be promoted in 80s when Polish fandom grow from you know just people reading sci-fi to more united front, and then fluorished in 90s weird wacky capitalism. As all new things you need time for things to grow in new place. Now definitely anti-American stance of goverment was certain hindrace, but overall we lost just few years compared to many western countries. Have no idea what would happen without fall of communism - probably there would be much worse quality of paper books, but ultimately Dungeons and Dragons wasn't really political.

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The solution to this is small independent authors and platforms maintaining the freedom to publish what they want, because hypothetically a large publisher that started in the Western Hemisphere where censorship is fundamentally illegal could be forced to rewrite its intellectual properties (IP) to sell product in Eastern Hemisphere where censorship is strong.

Dude, I'm in Eastern Hemisphere, that's bit of overexaggeration, especially since most of landmass is here :P
I mean I guess there is no playing D&D in North Korea, but other than that, unless country is not totally poor I guess you can play it. I mean Chinese definitely are playing RPG's, India is not much for censorship that's 2/7 of mankind over there. I wanted to check Iran - unfortunately all Middle Eastern countries parried with RPG - are googled in military context  ;D

Quote
As a hypothetical example, a publisher could have an IP about a band of freedom fighters rebelling against some oppressive overlord.  That IP could could be popular for maybe 40 years.  Now that publisher maybe wants to sell in the East, but a story about heroic freedom fighters could not sit well with censors.  The publisher tries to develop a revised IP where the updated version discredits the freedom fighters as sellouts to power and money.  The publisher maybe even fires certain creators, because they are too strongly to connected to the original IP disapproved by the new sensors.  By doing that the publisher's poor attempt to appease new sensors could completely backfire, damage the product, and drive away the original fans.

That's a lot of job that can be make much more easily, sir. I mean unless your game is very very very over-the-top-Ayn-Rand libertarian, then it's quite quite easy to give certain flavour to rebellion - that would suit your evil Eastern overlords, because like 99% of them also came from revolutionary governments and even if like Chinese they came back to more traditional governing they still present themselves as faithful children of Mao. It's quite easy to sell rebels vs opressive overlord to authoritarian governments - because modern ones are born from it.
I mean maybe King of Thailand would be offended.

Quote
Modern anti-censorship regulations are based on the guidance of Ben Franklin (the small publisher) and the philosophical vision of Voltaire.  We need to keep their spirit for free speech before the cancel culture erases them.

I really must say only think I want to with spirit of Voltaire is some really good exorcisms :P

Quote
Hmmm... a long long time ago Ben Franklin provided guidance to a freedom fighting farmer turned soldier named Tadeusz Kościuszko from a land far away.  Kościuszko became the hero of the turning point Battle of Saratoga.  Maybe I could develop a story about an old guru named Ben that guides a poor dirt farmer into an intergalactic revolution and that dirt farmer becomes the hero of a turning point battle?  Nah, that could never get passed censors.

Dear Lord, what have they taught you in those American schools.
I must say I'm not big fan of Kościuszko (being Catholic monarchist and all, and him being freemason nationalist democrate partially responsible for creation of USA) nevertheless - Kościuszko when joining American fight was 30 years old nobleman, with many years of military training and formal education in Polish Corpse of Cadets, and later 5 years in Military Academy of France at Versaille (that's where he become interested in revolutionist deal, so basically just after his arrival he become officer - engineer in your Army. :P
Luke Skyewalker you say... bollocks. Kościuszko was your Rogal Dorn, dammit. :P

engrgmr

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Re: The Alinksy OSR Livestream
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2021, 06:07:16 PM »
More good points adding to the value of discussion over censorship. 

Using a government censor as an editor is an interesting concept.  I prefer the freedom to make my own decision on good or bad products instead of government censors.  Just to clarify some of my initial vagueness regarding the Eastern Hemisphere.  I admit that it is huge and has a variety of governments covering the spectrum of censorship. 

With that said, there is at least one large country with heavy censoring policies pushing Western organizations to comply, and that pressure is influencing their Western products.  As for small publications I recall a news report in 2019 where a far east government forced the destruction of RPG books printed for the Western market while be manufactured in their printing facilities, because those books violated their censorship rules. (see https://www.tabletopgaming.co.uk/news/all-copies-of-call-of-cthulhu-rpg-sourcebook-the-sassoon-files/)   Otherwise while one may make the point that RPG books can fly under the radar of censors, the fact that it must be small enough to fly under the radar is a problem, not a benefit.  We should not have rules that force creators underground.

Regarding Kościuszko, unfortunately US schools just about ignore him.  As with any historical person, the details of his life vary from book to book.  However, my point made partially in jest was that portraying heroes based on people from the American Revolution is now the target of cancel culture leading to censorship.  We can see the pressure from Broadway plays to movies and books.

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Re: The Alinksy OSR Livestream
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2021, 07:23:19 PM »
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Using a government censor as an editor is an interesting concept.  I prefer the freedom to make my own decision on good or bad products instead of government censors.  Just to clarify some of my initial vagueness regarding the Eastern Hemisphere.  I admit that it is huge and has a variety of governments covering the spectrum of censorship.

Generally yes. But then when you feed society overall with bad culture, bad things can happen. Long distance damage.
Especially for works that are meant to be some sort of societal critique - I think cabarets/satirics hurted the most.

RPGs - well they were barely in their diapers, hard to say what would happen with them, if situation continued. Then IF it would continued it would probably tried to move to Chinese model so D&D would probably happen as well. (Though I doubt we'd get special fake diversity Polish characters for allowing Marvel films :( )


Quote
With that said, there is at least one large country with heavy censoring policies pushing Western organizations to comply, and that pressure is influencing their Western products.  As for small publications I recall a news report in 2019 where a far east government forced the destruction of RPG books printed for the Western market while be manufactured in their printing facilities, because those books violated their censorship rules. (see https://www.tabletopgaming.co.uk/news/all-copies-of-call-of-cthulhu-rpg-sourcebook-the-sassoon-files/)   Otherwise while one may make the point that RPG books can fly under the radar of censors, the fact that it must be small enough to fly under the radar is a problem, not a benefit.  We should not have rules that force creators underground.

Well then usual option is to make different version for American and for Chinese market. Simple as that.
Just like those guys from Trail of Cthulhu - they wanted cheaper printing they were burnt. Funny how global capitalism works.
Now as I'm far of libertarian sympathies really, I cannot say that worry me much - that's a normal traditional deal if you wanna trade with other countries, not pissing them off, not expecting everthing is allowed because Holy Freedom of Word.

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As with any historical person, the details of his life vary from book to book.

Dude, really, detials may vary - those are not details, those are basic data, there are documents, titles, we know his family tree for multiple generations. You cannot fake it for a book, unless book is blatant lie.

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However, my point made partially in jest was that portraying heroes based on people from the American Revolution is now the target of cancel culture leading to censorship.  We can see the pressure from Broadway plays to movies and books.

What can I say - do your own stuff. Or rebel install proper Christian Theocracy and censor liberals instead.
(And TBH if you're subtle then AR inspiration can easily be hidden, I mean they should be somehow hidden if your basing fictional characters - if it's obvious just make story about American Revolution).,