Quote from: AsenRG;837132Hits that don't do anything but get you closer to a desired state are setups.

Yeah.  Whittling away hit points is exactly the same as trying to stack enough bonuses to hit or damage.  Feels exactly the same as the table, too. :rolleyes:

Quote from: AsenRG;837132Except you don't have to do either, not in Fate. Well, not if what the GM is running is actually Fate, though I've seen examples of the opposite;).

So if you're really saying, like the OP asked, that he's doing it wrong, then why don't you say that instead of doing the old "D&D did it too!" dance?

Just to recap, and this is not a criticism of Fate Core but just a "we hate playing it the way it seems to work" (and is described, see Olaf and the Orcs), most actions in combat SEEMS to be about doing everything other than attacking (e.g., Olaf in the example flips a table, knocks someone back, etc.). These are all cool and nifty, but they quickly lead to narrative fatigue for my players and I (in terms of coming up with different things to do), and we don't actually feel that effective as combatants.

The fellow who mentioned it's mostly about stacking bonuses was right (at least that's how it plays in our combats).

So:
1. this is just the way Fate Core combat is. If you don't like it then don't play it.
2. you've misunderstood how Fate Core combat works. Instead, you should be able to do X;
3. the Fate derivative XX works differently

Quote from: CRKrueger;837141Yeah.  Whittling away hit points is exactly the same as trying to stack enough bonuses to hit or damage.  Feels exactly the same as the table, too. :rolleyes:

Hit points that don't do anything when removed? Yeah, I agree, it's different:D! It's different because stacking bonuses seems interesting and tactical in comparison.
Also, I'm looking at it from the point of view of the characters. In the game, the stacking of bonuses might very well look like the character hitting someone, or grappling, or other attack-like actions.

QuoteSo if you're really saying, like the OP asked, that he's doing it wrong, then why don't you say that instead of doing the old "D&D did it too!" dance?

First, you're misrepresenting my position. I'm not saying that the OP is doing it "wrong", because I don't fucking know how exactly he's doing it.
Second, I'm telling him that he can play differently. You can just hit people in Fate, and it would lead to bonuses.

Also, that's not a dance, it's a fact. D&D and Fate Core have really similar damage mechanics. See the explanation above, I don't need to repeat myself;).
The problem is that it's all about perception. So I'm asking the OP to describe what he's doing and how, in order to understand why he thinks that D&D or Savage Worlds have a different routine. It might well be that he would be better off just using Savage Worlds than trying to change his perceptions - but I don't know and the OP doesn't contain enough information for me to conclude it. I've seen enough people playing SW and enough people playing Fate to know that people often interpret dices differently.
But before we reach some common ground, I can't do anything to help him.

Now, is that enough clarifying of my position for you? If it's not, just open a thread like "what are Hit Points and what's their analogue in non-D&D systems". This, however, amounts to hijacking the OP's thread before he has been able to actually get some useful advice.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;837223Just to recap, and this is not a criticism of Fate Core but just a "we hate playing it the way it seems to work" (and is described, see Olaf and the Orcs), most actions in combat SEEMS to be about doing everything other than attacking (e.g., Olaf in the example flips a table, knocks someone back, etc.). These are all cool and nifty, but they quickly lead to narrative fatigue for my players and I (in terms of coming up with different things to do), and we don't actually feel that effective as combatants.

The fellow who mentioned it's mostly about stacking bonuses was right (at least that's how it plays in our combats).

So:
1. this is just the way Fate Core combat is. If you don't like it then don't play it.
2. you've misunderstood how Fate Core combat works. Instead, you should be able to do X;
3. the Fate derivative XX works differently

My experience is that options 2 and 3 are both true.
See, Olaf and the Orcs is an example of Fate Core combat. It has lots of stacking of bonuses for one simple reason: because that's where more misunderstandings occur.
Keep in mind, examples by their very nature focus on areas of potential misunderstandings:).
How Fate Core combat works in my experience:
1. Create Advantage roll. You want to win with style so you don't need to bother next round.
Hopefully, he hits you back, as most people tend to do. Take it on your Stress track, or use one of the advantages to lower it. Even better, he tries to Overcome, and doesn't make it.
Use Fate Points to lower the attack value. Remember, you can't use more than one FP per applicable fight-related Aspect...which is why you prefer to use them on defence, when necessary. You can then invoke advantages and use the same fight-related Aspect to stack a much higher Attack value.
2. Attack (see above about stacking). If you get a good roll, and between Fate points and Advantages, you probably do, you hit him for more Stress than he can mitigate with Stress alone. He takes a Consequence.
His next attack is also something you take on Stress. (The rule of thumb says, you only use boosts, Fate points or advantages when you can't take it on your Stress track, since it's superficial damage that heals between scenes:)).
3. You hit him again. If it seems advantageous, use the Consequence to boost it. If necessary, use Aspects and Fate points to boost it further.
If you're doing it right, he takes another one. Rinse and repeat. Hopefully, the GM offers you a Concession at this point. Accept, take the Fate point, and smile. Conceding enemies are a power generator for you.
True, you might need to self-compel to gather more Fate points after the fight. That's what fights are for;).

Then again, I primarily use Fate with wuxia-type games. A smart build not only allows all of the above when using, say, Tianxia, but also makes it an even more efficient strategy.
Are you using just Fate Core?

1. The above has done nothing to convince me that Fate is anything like D&D. On the contrary.

2. What I know about D&D is that instead of wrapping situational advantages into a linear stacking bonus, it treats them ad-hoc and multidimensionally, anywhere from transient bonuses/penalties for atomic actions, to geometric/spatial context (range, surrounding, etc.), to special effects (prone, stuck in mud, whatever). These feed into each other naturally with minimal mechanical processing, producing new effects in a variety of configurations.

3. Overall this seems like a much more honest advocacy of Fate: https://plus.google.com/+RobertHanz/posts/1x8MtdJRWH9. It might even help the OP, who knows.

Quote from: AsenRG;837275See, Olaf and the Orcs is an example of Fate Core combat.

Technically, it's an example of FAE combat.

(And I understand FAE is nothing but one possible version of Fate Core and therefore FAE = FC, but I feel that FAE is tweaked far enough from baseline FC that it bears pointing out.)

Quote from: Arminius;8372821. The above has done nothing to convince me that Fate is anything like D&D. On the contrary.

2. What I know about D&D is that instead of wrapping situational advantages into a linear stacking bonus, it treats them ad-hoc and multidimensionally, anywhere from transient bonuses/penalties for atomic actions, to geometric/spatial context (range, surrounding, etc.), to special effects (prone, stuck in mud, whatever). These feed into each other naturally with minimal mechanical processing, producing new effects in a variety of configurations.

3. Overall this seems like a much more honest advocacy of Fate: https://plus.google.com/+RobertHanz/posts/1x8MtdJRWH9. It might even help the OP, who knows.

I assume that's aimed at me:).
1. I'm not trying to persuade you about anything. What I'm trying to do is "share my thoughts with the OP, and suggest him an alternative way to handle Fate combat". The discussion with you guys was totally a diversion, especially after you focused (quite predictably) on the least important part of my post.
2. Don't see it as relevant.
3. It's a good explanation. Also note that in the example you posted sneaking is a "Create advantage" roll, not an opposed roll.
So is climbing.
In the same way, you can declare hitting, grappling or shieldbashing to be a "Create advantage" roll using Fight, Might or other skills. Which is exactly my advice to the OP. Advantages in a fight don't have to have anything to do with the environment;).

Quote from: Enlightened;837290Technically, it's an example of FAE combat.

(And I understand FAE is nothing but one possible version of Fate Core and therefore FAE = FC, but I feel that FAE is tweaked far enough from baseline FC that it bears pointing out.)

True, that, it's a FAE example. My mistake for getting it wrong.
Still, this doesn't change that the example focuses on Create Advantage actions more than any game I've been in, and that it probably does that because they're where the most misunderstandings could occur;).

"is there a way to get it to feel more like D&D, Savage Worlds, etc."

Arminius: [Examples and rationales why it's not like D&D.]

AsenRG: "Not relevant."

Quote from: Arminius;837359"is there a way to get it to feel more like D&D, Savage Worlds, etc."

Arminius: [Examples and rationales why it's not like D&D.]

AsenRG: "Not relevant."

Not quite:).

Your argument was that bonuses weren't treated like they're treated in D&D, and I didn't argue with it. My answer means that either option allows for similar in-game tactics, since the different treatment of the bonuses feeds into different mechanics for attack and defence, which in turn feeds into a quite similar damage system;).

At this point I'm beyond caring, especially since most fans of Fate say straightforwardly that they like it for its non-D&Dness.

Really, I'm wondering why Pencilboy99 has persisted with Fate since there are so many posts on this forum describing his difficulties with the system. Even if you want something with a unified narrative conflict resolution system, there are plenty of other options. Ditto if you're looking for freeform traits/attributes/tags.

AsenRG, if you have a second can you add an example for each of your steps?

Arminius, what other systems do you recommend that might fit the niche!

Unified narrative conflict resolution: The Solar System/ The Shadow of Yesterday. An early a Forge game. It's free on the web. I can only speak based on a read-through, but I thought the system looked good. I wasn't too crazy about the default setting but YMMV.

Freeform traits/tags: Basically, look up "spiritual attributes" from The Riddle of Steel, and/or BITS in Burning Wheel. I wasn't too keen on either game, personally, but the discussions around these ideas could be useful. Basically, SAs give you a bonus to your actions when they apply. BITS give you a luck point when you act on them. But the underlying systems are quite traditional if fiddly. D&D 5e has incorporated a very weak version of the latter.

Both in one: I'll start with a few that I can recommend only shakily. Hero Wars/Hero Quest, although again I'm not too crazy about the implementation. Dogs in the Vineyard (ditto). Over the Edge and Risus (don't know either too well). Possibly Under the Broken Moon, which is based on OtE, and free.

The one that can do both, that I would recommend personally based on experience, is Mythic Role Playing. It's somewhat of a metasystem in that you will define the characteristics and traits yourself. You don't even need to have any. But if you want to, you could certainly do something like the freeform traits of HQ, then oppose them via the conflict resolution system. E.g. if you want to oppose my Streetwise against your Disguise, then you can just feed the numerical values against each other. IIRC there are also ways of chaining or using characteristics to help each other, so you could use "Resents the imperialistic running dogs" to help your "archery" when you're ambushing a soldier of the oppressors or whatever.

EDIT: I should mention a few things:

1. DitV has huge problems with social combat. It works for some people, not for me. So I can't recommend it there. It's just an example.
2. The "Keys" in TSoY are similar to BITS in Burning Wheel. If you let people make up their own Keys, you've got 90% of what BITS do in terms of freeform traits--for free.
3. I don't think any unified narrative conflict resolution is going to be much like D&D. (But Innsmouther's recommendation of FATE 2.0 combat, below, might prove me wrong. Also, Mythic is highly malleable, so it can range between conflict resolution and task resolution, and it has a way of treating combat in a pretty traditional way, if you care to use it.)
4. Mythic does indeed allow one characteristic to help another, or one character to help another in a task; it's called "Combining Ranks". The guidelines for doing so require some judgment, but they're pretty straightforward. The idea is similar to Augments in Heroquest but it uses common sense to avoid the pitfalls that some people ran into with HQ 1e.

EDIT 2: I don't really recommend the Mythic combat system--I didn't use it when I played, and it seems rather cumbersome on reading.

Quote from: CRKrueger;837125There is no tap-tap-SMASH in D&D Unless you're talking about 4th with At-will, At-will, DAILY or a 3rd whatever with Trip-Blind-SNEAK ATTACK.

D&D is more tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-dead.  There is no "big hit", and if there is a big hit like a Vorpal, it isn't based on previous hits.

It's a matter of perception, really.   That last hit in D&D, the one that destroys the enemy, no matter how big or small the number on the die, is effectively the SMASH, if you want to look at it that way.  Or not.

I don't have any experience with FATE beyond owning a few books and an abortive demo at a game store with the Dresden version of the system.  I know the basics, but beyond that, I have no idea what to say about it.

So I'd like a bit of a clarification, for those of you who play it regularly (or more than twice. ): What do you mean by how the combat works?

In my opinion it's actually very easy to have D&D-like combat in FATE - just use second edition rules for combat. There are three different variants ("Turn based combat" beeing almost identical to D&D) but more importantly, there is no messing around with Create advantage actions and enviromental Aspects. Just good old modifiers to attack or defense (most of the time +/-1 per circumstance, +/-2 if it's something really important).

Also, you will probably want to drop injury modifiers, which are fine for more gritty games, but very un-D&D.

Btw despite beeing a huge FATE fan, I found a lot of mechanincs in Fate Core unnecesary and complicated and I prefer FATE 2e over Fate Core.