Quote from: RPGPundit;918050My main error was that I started the campaign out in the middle of nowhere.

Yeah that would do it. When the Boxed Set released a bunch of us who wrote stuff promoted it heavily. A couple of months later we kept getting reports of campaigns not working out. It soon became obvious that we missed communicating an important step in our campaigns with the Wilderlands. The campaign were failing because like yours they started out in nowhere and expected the players to start exploring. And only a small majority of hobbyist likes doing that.

What we were doing in our campaigns, is basically fleshing out a small region and giving each PC some background info or detail. With that, they could figure what they wanted to do and it is off to the races we go.

However even after we started explaining that, the idea that a sandbox campaign started out with a blank map was hard to shake and still persist to the present.

Quote from: CRKrueger;918081Care to share?

The web ones can be easily located with a Google search, but you want to look at Wilbur for a really nice terrain generator (that's nonetheless not very realistic because it's based on fractals) or World Engine if you want something more plausible at the cost of really, really long processing time.

The real problem with this thread is the neckbearded old farts pretending the Labour Theory of Value has any validity.

Quote from: daniel_ream;918176The web ones can be easily located with a Google search, but you want to look at Wilbur for a really nice terrain generator (that's nonetheless not very realistic because it's based on fractals) or World Engine if you want something more plausible at the cost of really, really long processing time.

The real problem with this thread is the neckbearded old farts pretending the Labour Theory of Value has any validity.

It isn't the physical labor that has the real value, although a well done map by a talented artist will always have value, such as Darlene's map of Greyhawk. That is a thing of beauty. Perhaps it can be copied/reproduced today with much less labor, but the value of the intellectual work still belongs to the original version. Copying and mass producing is always easier than expressing the original vision no matter what tool you use to accomplish it.

Quote from: daniel_ream;918176The web ones can be easily located with a Google search, but you want to look at Wilbur for a really nice terrain generator (that's nonetheless not very realistic because it's based on fractals) or World Engine if you want something more plausible at the cost of really, really long processing time.

The real problem with this thread is the neckbearded old farts pretending the Labour Theory of Value has any validity.

And the real problem with your argument is thinking that Wilderlands is just about the maps. It is the data + maps + random tables that give the originals value and the thing that Wilbur, Fractal Terrains, and the rest can't replicate for fantasy maps.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;918183It isn't the physical labor that has the real value, although a well done map by a talented artist will always have value, such as Darlene's map of Greyhawk. That is a thing of beauty.

You make my point for me, or perhaps you simply don't know what the Labour Theory of Value is.

Quote from: estar;918202And the real problem with your argument is thinking that Wilderlands is just about the maps. It is the data + maps + random tables that give the originals value and the thing that Wilbur, Fractal Terrains, and the rest can't replicate for fantasy maps.

How fortunate, then, that that isn't my argument.

Quote from: estar;918202And the real problem with your argument is thinking that Wilderlands is just about the maps. It is the data + maps + random tables that give the originals value and the thing that Wilbur, Fractal Terrains, and the rest can't replicate for fantasy maps.

In the words of Master Yoda, "Your breath, you are wasting, dude."

He's decided that anybody who likes JG stuff is guilty of Badwrongfun, and you can't get anywhere with somebody like that.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;918217He's decided that anybody who likes JG stuff is guilty of Badwrongfun, and you can't get anywhere with somebody like that.

The phrase "we made up some shit" refers to game rules, not other people's arguments.  Are those damn kids on your lawn again, grandpa?

Quote from: estar;918160Yeah that would do it. When the Boxed Set released a bunch of us who wrote stuff promoted it heavily. A couple of months later we kept getting reports of campaigns not working out. It soon became obvious that we missed communicating an important step in our campaigns with the Wilderlands. The campaign were failing because like yours they started out in nowhere and expected the players to start exploring. And only a small majority of hobbyist likes doing that.

What we were doing in our campaigns, is basically fleshing out a small region and giving each PC some background info or detail. With that, they could figure what they wanted to do and it is off to the races we go.

However even after we started explaining that, the idea that a sandbox campaign started out with a blank map was hard to shake and still persist to the present.

...and this where I copy or use the original Frontier Forts of Kelnore, and parts of the B1 dungeon, In Search of the Unknown, and make sure my players start off in a small town or fortified keep somewhere, with a few basic resources, and a bunch of extra hooks like a collection of npcs who have their own collection of rumors, anecdotes and stories about the local region. Even starting in just a small Keep, with a local military leader who is running off some particularly troublesome monsters, or having a few traveling merchants or traders stop by the local Inn to share a few pints, rumors. and stories about nearby locations.

An important part of every sandbox campaign.

The original Frontier Forts of Kelnore is one of my favorite products by Judges Guild, and the one that in the close to 40 years I've had it has gotten the most use.  I've used it more times than I can remember in fantasy games, used it in sci-fi games, and used it in contemporary and historical games - rpgs and miniatures scenarios.  Still treasure my copy.

My current Wilderlands campaign started 'in the middle of nowhere', but I had a couple of large dungeons (Thracia & Dyson's Delve) within a day's travel of the starting point, and a lightly sketched out starter village with a few NPCs. Also setting it in Altanis meant I had Estar's always-useful map of areas of influence to use/modify -

I think the Wilderlands really shines for the OD&D approach where PCs intend to make their mark on the world without any unassailable Powers That Be to tell them what to do; for that reason I tend to avoid play in the City States. Out in the wilderness PCs can start by looting local dungeons, segue into wilderness exploration & questing, then establish territories and become rulers and warlords.

The provided material creates a framework to build from. It's very useful that wherever the PCs go there is stuff - settlements, a few monsters, ruins and points of interest. When travelling the feel often resembles Vance's Dying Earth; chaotic and full of unrelated events - you might well be on a mission of your own and run into a completely unrelated major villain's iron golems doing their own thing.