Quote from: grodog on February 07, 2024, 10:20:21 PM

Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PM
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo.  They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.

They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm

Allan.

There is an English translation of the Bansenshukai Ninja Manual from the Edo Period. Certainly worth a read if you are utilizing Ninja in a campaign. While it stems from other Edo period texts, here's a fun fact: one form of kinton no jutsu involved tossing handfuls of gold coins on the ground either as a general distraction or to help one escape pursuers. A classic D&D tactic as a ninja art, even if only a theoretical one.

Interesting topic, thanks. I need to look these settings up.

I personally have several years of experience with L5R and with several editions.
I can positively endorse L5R as long as it is Alderac edition. The latest one is
nothing but a woke bs.

Quote from: grodog on February 07, 2024, 10:20:21 PM

Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PM
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo.  They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.

They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm

Allan.

Well, the very first line of the description is technically inaccurate, but these could be useful for gamers due to the sheer detail.  The bakufu was a parallel military administration to the imperial civil bureaucracy.  Shoguns were not regents to the emperors; the title of regent is a different office.  There could be regents to both the shogun and the emperor at the same time if both those individuals were minors.  Likely has little effect on most gamers, but don't start your ad for historical accuracy with an incorrect statement.

No offense to you, Allan; just think the author should be more careful with his language.

Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 08:37:45 AM

Quote from: grodog on February 07, 2024, 10:20:21 PM

Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PM
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo.  They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.

They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm

Allan.

Well, the very first line of the description is technically inaccurate, but these could be useful for gamers due to the sheer detail.  The bakufu was a parallel military administration to the imperial civil bureaucracy.  Shoguns were not regents to the emperors; the title of regent is a different office.  There could be regents to both the shogun and the emperor at the same time if both those individuals were minors.  Likely has little effect on most gamers, but don't start your ad for historical accuracy with an incorrect statement.

No offense to you, Allan; just think the author should be more careful with his language.

Even I caught that, and I am into only the first of the many books your syllabi recommends - the book about ninja by Stephen Turnbull. So, yeah, I'm a complete novice. If I can catch it, it says something.

Late to the party to recommend Bushido, I GMed it for a couple of years.

Yes, it's confusing and poorly explained. You probably won't understand character creation or the skill system the first time around. Just remember that the BCS (base chance of success) rule is the game's core mechanic. Skills are measured in % scores that convert to a D20-based BCS and then you roll the D20.

It's a skill-based game more than a level-based game, but it has both and the levels matter.

Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 08:37:45 AM

Quote from: grodog on February 07, 2024, 10:20:21 PM

Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PM
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo.  They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.

They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm

Allan.

Well, the very first line of the description is technically inaccurate, but these could be useful for gamers due to the sheer detail.  The bakufu was a parallel military administration to the imperial civil bureaucracy.  Shoguns were not regents to the emperors; the title of regent is a different office.  There could be regents to both the shogun and the emperor at the same time if both those individuals were minors.  Likely has little effect on most gamers, but don't start your ad for historical accuracy with an incorrect statement.

No offense to you, Allan; just think the author should be more careful with his language.

This is precisely the shit I'm trying to avoid when working on my own project.  I've got about 30 books to read and hopefully that will have the information to keep me dialed in. 

OK, let me sum up the games I am looking at, some of which you guys suggested.

A)  Games based on ye olde D&D.

1.  Shinobi & Samurai, based on BX D&D (and is free to download)
2.  WhiteBox: Eastern Adventures, based on zero-edition D&D (and is free to download).
3.  Ruins and Ronin, based on zero-edition D&D.

B)  Games that are old

1.  Palladium Fantasy, with Ninjas & Superspies/Rifts Japan/Rifter #27 to add Samurai and Chi-powers to the game.
2.  Bushido, which is its own game, old, poorly written, but contains a bunch of Japanese cultural information.

C)  Games that are new

1.  Adventures in Rokugan, which is Legend of the 5 rings, but re-written to use 5th Edtion D&D rules.  Not Japan, but a fictional universe with its own lore, but close to Japan.
2.  Legend of the five Rings 3rd edition, also set in Rokugan.  Sometimes these rules are called the 1D10 rules, or the Roll and Keep system.
3.  Sengoku.  It has its own rules, but this game has a lot of real Japanese culture lore in it.

So, which game is my winner?

I'm going to go with....

...Chanbara.



I would not have called that when I started this thread.  I was going to go with Shinobi & Samurai, because it was simple, free, and had a lot of classes (10).

What sold me was that Chanbara is a short rulebook, but is a bit more complex than a typical D&D clone game.  This game is based on Basic D&D after all, but it isn't the same at all.

It has a couple of features I like, 

As you level up, you can customize your character with Special Abilities.  These abilities will cost you a "Combat Die" token to activate (everyone starts with 3 Combat Dice).  The character levels without special abilities instead reward you 1 more Combat Die.  These combat dice are used differently for each class in the game.  Every 3rd level you get a special ability, and your Combat Dice works with it, and each one is different.  You often roll the 1D6 combat dice, and the value means something.  There are too many to list, but things like extra damage, or hypnosis that last 1D6 days, or turning into a shadow for 1D6 rounds, ect.

The other thing is the game has that is new (like I've NEVER seen this before) is a completely second attack type vs defense type called "Tactical Attack vs Tactical Defense".  Instead of your strength being the attribute here, your Intelligence is the ability modifier you add into the roll.  Tactical Defense uses both Dexterity and Wisdom.

What are Tactical attacks?  It is combat that does NOT do damage, but does weird stuff.  Pushes, Disarms, Sundering Armor, Disrupting spellcasting, pins, escaping a hold, etc.   Again, because the Tactical Attack attacks use INT, and the Tactical Defense uses DEX and WIS, this means you can have a physically weak Samurai, but if he is smart as hell, then you can pull off some disabling actions that evens out a fight in his favor anyway, even though he is not very strong.

I think this was done to avoid having "dump stats".  You still use INT, DEX, and WIS as a warrior.

The other selling point is the sheer amount of classes to pick from.  I don't like having just the classic four of fighter, magician, cleric, and thief.  I want more, and Chanbara has more (11 classes total).

My runner ups were Shinobi & Samurai because it was easy, has a lot of classes, and is free to download.  The third runner up was Adventures in Rokugan, because it is 5E. 

But, Chanbara is the game I am picking now, unless another game comes up.  But, after 7 pages of discussion I think we have sussed this genre out pretty well.

I've been looking more into these games and I'm surprised by how varied they all are. 

I'm starting to think a fictional setting is best because you don't have to know any real history to "get it right". 

I think that's the selling point of Rokugan. 

———————————-

Also, I have a question about warriors/bushi from Chanbara.  The game is based on old school D&D rules, which I'm not very familiar with.  The attack bonus modifier starts out as one number, but then splits into two separate numbers at level 5, then into three numbers at level 10. 

Why?   The game never explains what this is.  I'm not sure it matters as the various numbers are identical, so differentiating them seems pointless.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 15, 2024, 06:25:43 PM
Also, I have a question about warriors/bushi from Chanbara.  The game is based on old school D&D rules, which I'm not very familiar with.  The attack bonus modifier starts out as one number, but then splits into two separate numbers at level 5, then into three numbers at level 10. 

Why?   The game never explains what this is.  I'm not sure it matters as the various numbers are identical, so differentiating them seems pointless.

  That usually indicates multiple attacks in a single round.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 15, 2024, 07:17:27 PM
That usually indicates multiple attacks in a single round.

Ok.  That actually makes sense. 

That is the third time this set of rules assumed the reader knows something without explaining it.  The other two relate to stats with asterisk next to them.  Level-10 players and up switch to a different hit point increases, and the other being Hit Dice for monsters have one or more asterisks next to the number.  That means how many special abilities the monster has, and thus how to calculate its XP reward.  Sort of pointless, as each monster already lists it XP reward already. 

It seems there was another RuneQuest Japan supplement besides the old Land of the Ninja: Land of the Samurai set in the late Heian period. Honestly, on a flip through there are a number of things I don't think it did very accurately for the period. I don't recall there even being an onmyouji character type which would have been even more important back then than in the Sengoku or Edo period.

The Rokurokubi is bizarrely described like the Malaysian Penanggalan which is even more strange than Bushido confusing them with the similar Nukekubi. Honestly it's a yokai that doesn't fit too well in the setting as it's a solidly Edo period piece of folklore (albeit influenced potentially by older Chinese lore). It also gets the Mujina wrong, but many western sources carry Lafcadio Hearn's error of confusing the Mujina with the Nopperabo (also a more Edo period bit of lore iirc). Needed less Edo period Yokai in the bestiary and more info about Oni, Nue, Tengu, Yuki-onna, Shikome and Tsukumogami. Stuff that people in the period thought about.

For magic there's also a mention of significant persecution of Yojutsu users which seems dubious. Even so, if you want to do old Japan in BRP it would be a handy resource when paired with ones own research.

Quote from: WERDNA on February 06, 2024, 01:26:31 PM
Incidentally, the D&D 3e version of Oriental Adventures was actually set in Rokugan iirc.

As a person who acquired a PDF of Oriental Adventures 3.5, I can confirm this. 

It's funny how playing Samurai means either historical Japan with mysticism turned on, or Rokugan.  Those seem to be the only two settings. 

This thread reminded me of the upcoming game World of Kensai by Riotminds. I haven't seen anyone talking about this at all. It is based on 5e so that might turn some people off. Seems to be a world in the same vein of Rokugan. The art looks evocative though.

https://riotminds.se/product/the-world-of-kensei/

*double post

Quote from: Teodrik on March 17, 2024, 02:01:49 PM
This thread reminded me of the upcoming game World of Kensai by Riotminds. I haven't seen anyone talking about this at all. It is based on 5e so that might turn some people off. Seems to be a world in the same vein of Rokugan. The art looks evocative though.

https://riotminds.se/product/the-world-of-kensei/

That does look interesting and a bit more of a blender mash of Asia than Rokugan though it's hard to tell the woke factor from this.  An OSR version would be cool.