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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: S'mon on October 03, 2017, 11:08:03 AM

Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: S'mon on October 03, 2017, 11:08:03 AM
Thinking about stuff like Dwimmermount, Stonehell, Castle of the Mad Archmage, Barrowmaze, TSR Greyhawk Ruins, Rappan Athuk et al. What are your favourites and why?
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Larsdangly on October 03, 2017, 11:17:58 AM
I think Rappan Athuk has to set the curve. First, for its scale.  It may have rivals in terms of total room count (though I wouldn't bet on that), but if you count 'quality' entries,  rooms and other locales where some thought was put into who or what is there and what is going on, it is simply tremendously big. Second, it has a fantastic sense of large-scale geometry and integration. It is a spider's web of entrances, levels and sub levels, and connections. I think there is something like a dozen major ways in and out, and there must be a hundred paths reaching across levels. Imagine an intricate, maze-like 3D-map of rooms in a normal scale dungeon, and then imagine each room on that map is a level. Third, it has a very large number of interesting monsters, traps and potential foes and allies. There are too many to go through in a post, but the author takes familiar ideas (vampire, giant octopus, etc.) and makes them fresh. 'Factions' are often cited as a key element of megadungeons; I'm not sure I agree; they are just one color on the pallet and can be good, bad or irrelevant. Rappan Athuk has several organized groups you could think of as factions if you like, though I don't think of them as being the main point of the place.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: under_score on October 03, 2017, 11:38:01 AM
I think Stonehell is fantastic as an introductory megadungeon.  It's one page dungeon inspired layout makes it ridiculously easy to start running.  It suffers from having minimal options for entry, not enough variety in layout and size (due to the format, each level is the same size essentially), and there's not really a great reason to go into the dungeon, since it was a literal dungeon with little promise of good loot from a background perspective.  But I'd still recommend it to anyone that is new to running a megadungeon and overwhelmed by the complexity of something like Rappan Athuk.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Larsdangly on October 03, 2017, 12:30:25 PM
Stonehell is very good as an introduction to the concept. It is plenty big, less expensive than some of the others people will discuss here, and it is very well presented and organized. It is also relatively linear; you kind of chug your way from the top to the bottom. It also has some nice touches in the way it presents groups of monsters and NPCs (my sense is that the author likes his megadungeon play to be relatively focused on factions and politics, as opposed to sneaking around and murdering stuff). I ran it once and had a good time. That said, I think if you are a seasoned DM you would rank R.A. significantly higher, and you'd probably like Barrowmaze better as well. My ranking of recent OSR megadungeons goes (top to bottom):

Rappan Athuk
Barrowmaze
Castle Zagyg: The upper works
Anomalous Subsurface Environment
Stonehell
Castle of the Mad Archmage (this can be thought of as the 'rest' of Castle Zagyg)

There are a lot of other good, bigish dungeons out there, but these are the only 6 I own that I would call OSR megadungeons. And my ranking isn't intended as a dis on any of them; all 6 are pretty great.

Edit: I also have Dwimmermount; it totally 'counts' as a megadungeon and is at least as good as 3-4 of those listed above, when it comes to production values and attempts to bring some creative flair to the concept. But it is too wordy for my tastes.

P.S. Edit: my favorite starting maps when I want to megadungeon, don't want to draw a map, but also don't want the constraints of someone else's ideas, I use Undermountain. It is fucking enormous, and the maps are beautiful. It is pretty fun to just let loose with this one.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: S'mon on October 03, 2017, 01:41:25 PM
I just started running Stonehell, enjoying it so far but I wish all the info was in the location key, not half of it separate in the intro section. Running off the key means I keep missing stuff.

I had a great time running the Dyson's Delve mini-megadungeon. Also enjoyed running Lost City of Barakus 2004-06, but I've not tried Rappan Athuk. I have Dwimmermount but not run it; it seems very tied to the setting & its cosmology. Enjoyed Caverns of Thracia but it's a bit too small for a megadungeon, and the complex design isn't really appreciated by the players IME - I doubt mine will notice or care that Stonehell is symmetrical. I don't have Barrowmaze; I went looking for it after reading the current thread here but it seems rather expensive, as does Castle of the Mad Archmage with its 3 (+?) required books. Stonehell is definitely good value.

In general I suspect a minimimalist approach to publishing maximalist dungeons works best - keep the presentation simple enough the GM can easily add their own ideas and integrate it into their campaign (whereas Dwimmermount pretty much needs to be its own campaign). The 1-2 pages per dungeon section approach of DD & Stonehell is great for this.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: under_score on October 03, 2017, 01:57:24 PM
I didn't have a problem at all with Stonehell's intro/key layout.  I thought the key was perfectly written to give the vital info while running it and I just make a point of rereading the intro for a quadrant before a session is headed there.  Compared to how lengthy and spread out most dungeons are, it seemed very effective to me.

Barakus I've only run a little but I really like it.  The layout is fantastic, with lots of alternate routes to choose from and different factions controlling different areas.  It's not the biggest dungeon, but I think it's a great model for how to layout a dungeon with meaningful choices for how to proceed.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: S'mon on October 03, 2017, 02:33:46 PM
Quote from: under_score;997834
I didn't have a problem at all with Stonehell's intro/key layout.  I thought the key was perfectly written to give the vital info while running it and I just make a point of rereading the intro for a quadrant before a session is headed there.  Compared to how lengthy and spread

It doesn't take much work compared to the nightmare of running Paizo dungeons, where they spend three pages on the backstory of a monster who'll be dead in 2 rounds but don't bother with critical stuff like monster stats (it's always "see Bestiary 6"); I just thought more info could have been in the key. I'd have preferred 3 pages for the key if that meant not having to refer to two different places. One thing I like about a good published dungeon is the minimal prep requirement; in an ideal case they need no pre-session prep at all.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: HMWHC on October 03, 2017, 03:57:02 PM
Quote from: S'mon;997830
Dyson's Delve mini-megadungeon.

My Google-Fu is failing apparently (well I'm using DuckDuckGo but anyways) do you have a link for the mini-megadungeon as I love that guys maps.

P.S.
...and krud I think I just found it.
https://www.scribd.com/document/119595903/Dysons-Delve-Deluxe

P.P.S.
F'ing Scribd trying to get ya to sign up for their paid service before downloading. Does anyone know of a link where the mini-mega dungeon can be downloaded without a Scribd account.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: HMWHC on October 03, 2017, 04:10:02 PM
Don't forget the "Worlds Largest Dungeon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Largest_Dungeon)".

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1704[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1705[/ATTACH]

It got poor reviews but the thing is fricking massive. Here is a link (http://www.james.neetersoft.com/wld/wld.htm) to a fan site with all the maps.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: HMWHC on October 03, 2017, 04:19:27 PM
As I've recently become re-obsessed with Mega-dungeons I'll add the following which I think haven't been mentioned yet.

Castle Whiterock (http://goodman-games.com/store/product/dungeon-crawl-classics-51-castle-whiterock-2/),  from Goodman Games 3E days. The dead tree version came in a massive boxed set filled to the brim with books and maps.

The Forbidden Caverns of Archaia (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/218157/The-Forbidden-Caverns-of-Archaia?src=hottest_filtered), as others have said Greg Gillespies PDF's are expensive but the content is good. This one is the second outing of his after Barrowmaze Complete. I am already linking this one even more than Barrowmaze Complete which was excellent.

To me this is "B2 Keep on the Borderlands and it's "Caves of Chaos" done in a more believable presentation. Canyons of Chaos in this case. I always meant to make my own Fantasy Heartbreaker mega dungeon out of B2 with the Caves spread out along a long canyon to better explain how each Demi-Human tribe could live close to each other but not right on top of each other. Seems Greg has beat me to it and done a far better job than I ever would.

The Complete Roslof Keep (https://artofthegenre.com/products/the-complete-roslof-keep-campaign-hardcover), I own it but haven't read it yet. I guess? it could be classified as a "Mega" dungeon, or at the least a "Large" dungeon.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: S'mon on October 03, 2017, 04:52:28 PM
Quote from: Gwarh;997859
My Google-Fu is failing apparently (well I'm using DuckDuckGo but anyways) do you have a link for the mini-megadungeon as I love that guys maps.

P.S.
...and krud I think I just found it.
https://www.scribd.com/document/119595903/Dysons-Delve-Deluxe

P.P.S.
F'ing Scribd trying to get ya to sign up for their paid service before downloading. Does anyone know of a link where the mini-mega dungeon can be downloaded without a Scribd account.

Dyson's Delve free pdf - https://rpgcharacters.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dysons-delve-deluxe.pdf

But I bought mine hard copy as part of "Dyson's Delves I" from Lulu - http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/dysonlogos
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: fearsomepirate on October 03, 2017, 04:53:00 PM
I have been running Greyhawk Ruins in 5e. It is okay. I think there is a story to the dungeon that only becomes apparent on multiple readings. The Tower of War has so far been a meat grinder that chews up parties that feel the need to mess with every single thing they see. Also there is a room full of poop.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: S'mon on October 03, 2017, 05:07:32 PM
Quote from: Gwarh;997863
Castle Whiterock (http://goodman-games.com/store/product/dungeon-crawl-classics-51-castle-whiterock-2/),  from Goodman Games 3E days. The dead tree version came in a massive boxed set filled to the brim with books and maps.

I have this on pdf on rpgnow but haven't really read it - have you gone over it? Worth running or not?
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: HMWHC on October 03, 2017, 06:16:25 PM
I read it (Castle Whiterock (http://goodman-games.com/store/product/dungeon-crawl-classics-51-castle-whiterock-2/)) when I got it several years ago, and yes I would say it's worth playing through.

But, it's also allot of content, makes me think of Rappan Athuk (at least the glance over I did of Rappan Athuk) in that for me at least I start to glaze over with the sheer bulk of content. It is broken up into themed areas/levels/zones though which helps with the glazing over a little bit.

Could be the OCD in me which wants to know the adventure/dungeon inside and out before running it. Maybe best to let it go and let it flow.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Madprofessor on October 03, 2017, 06:30:23 PM
I'm hardly an expert but Barakus is not bad.  Maybe it is not big enough to be a "mega dungeon" though.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: EOTB on October 03, 2017, 07:34:06 PM
There was a blog post a few months ago that made an attempt at listing them.

https://darkangel866.blogspot.com/2017/04/megadungeon-list.html?m=0

FWIW, even though I love dungeons, I haven't really seen a published megadungeon I like.  I think published versions suffer from lack of playtesting and artificiality (RA's small 8.5x11 levels, stonehell's rigid shapes) while organic ones suffer from the effort required to bring order from the chaos of play notes.  I'd say the best known megadungeons I've played in are unpublished, such as Allan Grohe's personal take on Castle GH, Chainsaw's Foolsgrave, and a couple of other guys.

I do like Barrowmaze as a massive themed dungeon.  But I need the vertical dimension to be a true megadungeon - falling into a big mess is inseparable from megadungeon, for me.  But I wouldn't hesitate to use Barrowmaze (and I do own it).

The other thing that I pre-load into the megadungeon isn't the size, but the mythic underworld concept.  If it isn't a mythic underworld, I'm not interested in exploring what is just an endless series of lairs in a tunnel.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Simlasa on October 03, 2017, 09:45:19 PM
Would Parlainth for Earthdawn count?
I've only played it, never read or ran... but it seemed huge and weird, and had a strong bit of story running through it. True, it's actually a ruined city with catacombs beneath... so I'm not sure the open air bits count.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: JeremyR on October 03, 2017, 10:07:01 PM
I would say Dwimmermount by far.

Firstly, it's actually fleshed out thanks to the job Autarch did.  A lot of megadungeons are pretty sketchy.  Stonehell is great, but it used a modified 1 page dungeon format so by design it's somewhat sketchy.

Secondly, despite all the crap about the 2000 coppers and giant rats, it's got a lot of interesting stuff. Martians, Venusians, Jubilex in a canister like Prince of Darkness

Thirdly, again, thanks to the job Autarch did, it's very playable. Castle Whiterock may or may not be a great megadungeon, but it's a pain in the ass to read, much less run.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: grodog on October 04, 2017, 02:10:12 AM
Quote from: S'mon;997793
Thinking about stuff like Dwimmermount, Stonehell, Castle of the Mad Archmage, Barrowmaze, TSR Greyhawk Ruins, Rappan Athuk et al. What are your favourites and why?

I think that for me it really varies, based on who I've been playing (or sometimes, working) with.  I've really enjoyed nearly all of the mega-dungeons that I've played in or run*, but I've also generally had the wonderful pleasure of excellent DMs and players, which makes all the difference in the world in terms of the game experience at the table.

Thinking through the mega-dungeons I'm familiar with, some stand outs that still stick with me are:
- best mapping environment to explore:  Castle El Raja Key, Maure Castle, Caverns of Thracia, Foolsgrave
- most-fun encounters:  Castle Greyhawk, Foolsgrave
- most-fun enigmas/centerpieces:  Castle Greyhawk, Maure Castle, WG5, ASE1/2-3, Undermountain
- coolest and biggest maps:  Castle of the Mad Archmage, The Quilt Map, Undermountain, Vladikavkaz, Arden Vul, Foolsgrave
- pulls it all together fabulously:  Caverns of Thracia, Maure Castle, Tomb of Abysthor

In terms of best-published format/presentation for a mega-dungeon, I don't think that we've seen that yet.  Necromancer Games build out a good standard template for dungeon levels between Rappan Athuk and Tomb of Abysthor, and The Grand Temple of Jing attempted to design a new layout format for the mega-dungeon (similar to what Ptolus successfully achieved for the city sourcebook), but neither product quite achieved their overall goal on those fronts, due to other, over-shadowing issues with the products (horrible maps in RA the first go-round, while the KS version of GToJ didn't really pursue the usability goals of the first version of the dungeon).  A well-built layout focused on at-the-table usability, married to a brilliant  book design could really distinguish a future mega-dungeon product, and potentially allow it to leapfrog into the top of the list....

Allan.

* Mega-dungeons I've played in:
- Castle El Raja Key - written and DM'd by Rob Kuntz (pre-published version)
- Caverns of Thracia - written by Jennell Jaquays, DM'd by Jon Hershberger
- Dark Tower - written by Jennell Jaquays, DM'd by Jon Hershberger
- Foolsgrave - written and DM'd by Chainsaw (pre-published version)
- Jakallan Underworld - written by Phil Barker, DM'd by Victor Raymond (pre-published version)
- Thieves Fortress Badabaskor - written by Bob Bledsaw & Mark Summerlott, DM'd by Jon Hershberger

Mega-dungeons I've run:
- Castle Greyhawk/The Lair of Thelmon Onvalth - my own (pre-published version)
- Castle Greyhawk - EGG and RJK - Bottle City, EX1-2, WG6, etc., etc.
- Castle El Raja Key/Maure Castle - RJK - WG5, The Statuary, Chambers of Antiquities, Warlock's Walk
- Mythrus Tower - Matt Finch
- Tomb of Abysthor - Clark Peterson and Bill Webb  
- Undermountain - Ed Greenwood - Box set 1, Dragon articles

Mega-dungeons I've designed, developed, edited, and/or published:
- Castle Greyhawk/The Lair of Thelmon Onvalth - my version of Castle Greyhawk, including my version of The Black Reservoir (based on EGG story vs. RJK level) and The Quilt Map (based on Tony Rosten's map)
- Castle Greyhawk - RJK - Bottle City
- Castle of the Mad Archmage - Joe Bloch
- Maure Castle - RJK - Warlock's Walk
- The Twisting Stair centerfold mega-dungeon - Tony Rosten

Mega-dungeons I've read but neither run nor played in:
- Anomalous Subsurface Environment - Patrick Wetmore - Levels 1 and 2-3
- Arden Vul - Rick Barton (pre-published version)
- Barrowmaze - Greg Gillespie (first versions, pre-expansion via Barrowmaze Complete)
- Castle Blackmoor - First Fantasy Campaign and the 3.x version
- Castle Greyhawk - Castle Zagyg, WG7, WGR1, Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, etc., etc.
- The Darkness Beneath - a few levels in Fight On!
- Dwimmermount - James Malizewski
- The Grande Temple of Jing - Danny O'Neill & Diverse Hands
- Mines of Khumar - Stefan Poag
- Palace of the Vampire Queen - Pete & Judy Kerestan
- Rappan Athuk - Clark Peterson & Bill Webb - R1-3, Rappan Athuk boxed set (original)
- Ruins of Kwalishar - Tim Kask (pre-published version)
- Stonehell - Michael Curtis - Vol 1: Down Night-Haunted Halls
- Undermountain - Ed Greenwood & Diverse Hands - Box set 2, the Fireplace level (Dungeon Magazine), a smattering of modules too
- Vladikavkaz - Keith Sloan (pre-published version)
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: S'mon on October 04, 2017, 03:16:19 AM
Quote from: JeremyR;997976
Thirdly, again, thanks to the job Autarch did, it's very playable. Castle Whiterock may or may not be a great megadungeon, but it's a pain in the ass to read, much less run.

Yes that was my impression from looking at the two rather briefly - Whiterock I found hard to read & grok, Dwimmermount seems presented very well. My only real problem with Dwimmermount is that it looks hard to genericise; it seems tied to the setting that developed around it. Normally I like megadungeons I can just plop into a campaign setting such as Wilderlands, for which the short format of Stonehell & Dyson's Delve works very well. But I'm definitely considering running a Dwimmermount campaign - I accidentally bought the hardback ACKS version despite not having ACKS, might run it in Swords & Wizardry, in 1e/OSRIC or in 5e - not sure.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: S'mon on October 04, 2017, 03:25:54 AM
I found Caverns of Thracia (I used 3e version) never grabbed my group as a place to explore for its own sake. I think the paucity of treasure was a big part of that, along with the high threat level. Also it has no low-level safer areas, instead it has dangerous & deadly. It worked well for a high level delve where PCs went in to destroy the awakening First King before he could get up & start causing trouble; but no desire to keep exploring. By contrast they were always keen on exploring Dyson's Delve - lots of treasure, few screw-you areas, and frequent access to lower levels, were three factors.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: EOTB on October 05, 2017, 12:39:35 PM
Quote from: grodog;998016

- Arden Vul - Rick Barton (pre-published version)


Wow - Rick and Joe B. dropped a teaser map because it looks like this is in the publishing pipeline, and it looks absolutely amazing.

http://knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?p=236014#p236014
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Spellslinging Sellsword on October 05, 2017, 03:58:25 PM
That does look pretty sweet.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: RPGPundit on October 08, 2017, 03:41:21 AM
Of the list above? Barrowmaze.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: S'mon on October 08, 2017, 06:45:32 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;999219
Of the list above? Barrowmaze.

Is it worth the $75 for the hardcover?
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: RPGPundit on October 10, 2017, 11:53:48 PM
Quote from: S'mon;999245
Is it worth the $75 for the hardcover?

I guess it mainly depends on whether you're going to run it or not.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Larsdangly on October 11, 2017, 02:14:28 AM
I just had Forbidden Caverns of Archaia delivered to my house. I won't blather about it before I've read it through in detail, but thumbing through and giving it a sniff it looks very promising. It has been described as Keep on the Borderlands re-imagined as a megadungeon, and that is a pretty accurate tag line. But it is really fucking big - you could seriously play years of a very active campaign in this place. The total size must be close to 50x that of a common, tournament-scale dungeon. And it has a lot of moving parts and diversity in locales and challenges. I'll report back in a day or two when I've had a chance to really read it.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: crkrueger on October 11, 2017, 04:07:41 AM
I heard they shipped.  Still waiting to get Archaia.  I have the pdf, but haven't downloaded it yet, wanted to read the book.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Larsdangly on October 11, 2017, 10:51:41 AM
It's really good; I'm still only about 1/3 through it and will need a couple of days to look over the rest, but its clearly one of the better big dungeons. It is broadly similar in scale to Rappan Athuk, and there are similarities between the two in terms of structure (i.e., a huge number of small to medium levels rather than a few gigantic levels, like Undermountain), but the layout is very different - think Caves of Chaos on massive doses of growth hormone. The content is divided more or less evenly into three parts: complexes that are homes to war bands of humanoids (orcs, gnolls, etc.), lairs and crypts containing a small number of weird and dangerous things, and a big complex that reminds me a bit of G3 (halls of the fire giant king). I like the fact that 1st level characters could try their hand at this environment, provided they kept their wits about them and recognized when they were getting in over their heads, but a higher level party (say, 7th-10th) could also get into hot water pretty easily. I'll have more to say by the weekend...
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Lynn on October 11, 2017, 11:27:04 AM
I am running Stonehell now, and I found it very easy to drop into my campaign and both easily adaptable (using DCCRPG and my own post apocalyptic setting) and extensible. Score it on one of Lulu's very occasional 40% off deals and you get a lot of fun at a very reasonable price.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Aglondir on October 12, 2017, 10:00:54 PM
How is Expedition to Undermountain (for 3.5)?
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Larsdangly on October 13, 2017, 10:46:15 AM
I've been curious about that as well (just in an academic sense; I don't play 3.5E and don't intend to). It is hard to see how it could stack up with the original boxed sets, which are pretty great.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: RPGPundit on October 15, 2017, 10:00:36 PM
Quote from: Aglondir;1000220
How is Expedition to Undermountain (for 3.5)?

Good question. The 2e Undermountain material was disappointing.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: S'mon on October 16, 2017, 03:22:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;999766
I guess it mainly depends on whether you're going to run it or not.

Been mulling this over. I guess any campaign dungeon that gets run & enjoyed will be worth it since they support months or years of play; some questions: how good is the presentation; is it easy to use, does it have a lot of fun/interesting stuff, how does the value compare to something much cheaper like Stonehell -  http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/poleandrope ?
I see Dwimmermount is also $75 for hardcover + pdf - http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/133746/Dwimmermount-Labyrinth-Lord-version so that looks like a good comparison.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Larsdangly on October 16, 2017, 10:57:06 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit;1000928
Good question. The 2e Undermountain material was disappointing.

What did you want that they didn't provide? I see big color maps, a couple hundred mostly good room entries, skull port is better than a lot of commercial settings from that era. I think they did a relatively good job on this one.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: Voros on October 17, 2017, 05:54:48 AM
I think the Skullport supplement is excellent.
Title: Best published megadungeon?
Post by: RPGPundit on October 19, 2017, 03:10:45 AM
Quote from: Larsdangly;1001027
What did you want that they didn't provide? I see big color maps, a couple hundred mostly good room entries, skull port is better than a lot of commercial settings from that era. I think they did a relatively good job on this one.

Skullport was fairly good. I guess it might be a case of wishing for too much, but they were also selling it as too much. I wanted a ginormous megadungeon with everything covered, and instead we got like, one not entirely complete level and some other stuff.