Quoting Gary, "As in real life, chance and random occurrances must be a part of an RPG adventure."  As I discovered in a thread called, if I remember correctly, "Dice and the IC POV" on rec.games.frp.advocacy, there are people who do not perceive real life as having as much chance and random occurrence as I do and, I presume Gary does.  For such people, the good faith decisions of the GM do a better job of reflecting realistic outcomes than dice filtered through either GM interpretation or rules.  In more simple terms, I once thought that "realism" required randomness because I think randomness does a decent job of reflecting elements of the real world, but there are other people who don't feel that way.

I wonder why it matters. To say, "it's not a roleplaying game if it doesn't have dice in it," seems to me like saying, "you can't call it football if you hardly ever kick." It may be true, but it does not seem to really help us have more fun playing or watching football, nor does it in any way change the football game itself.

It reminds me of when they decided Pluto wasn't a planet anymore. Pluto itself changed not a bit, just the name we gave it. And that spacecraft is still on its way to a flyby to have a look...

So some guy made up a definition of "roleplaying game" that excluded tens of thousands of game sessions people had. So...? Does that mean all those people playing Amber and Nobilis will now decide, "actually I didn't have fun after all"?

Or is this, perhaps, just a Gygaxian ego trip?

   "Hey, I invented roleplaying games! (Don't mention Arneson.) All roleplaying games since then are obviously derived from mine, they all have the same stuff."
"But what about these other ones, they seem to be original and not derived from D&D."
"Oh but those aren't real roleplaying games, so they don't count! I invented roleplaying games! All of them are my children!"  

Eh. Gygax has strong opinions about stuff. I disagree with him about this, but so what? I can't say this stance surprises me.

This is interesting because of the many "what is an RPG" type threads we've seen here.  EGG says an RPG needs dice.  Pundit says an RPG needs a strong GM.  Someone else might say they need to be about adventuring.  

I think it's all personal preference at this point...

Quote from: StuartThis is interesting because of the many "what is an RPG" type threads we've seen here.  EGG says an RPG needs dice.  Pundit says an RPG needs a strong GM.  Someone else might say they need to be about adventuring.  

I think it's all personal preference at this point...

Quite, I say it's not an rpg if it involves mecha.

Hey, it's no more arbitrary than any other criterion based purely on personal play preference.

I say it's not an RPG if it doesn't involve drugs.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIf you could wrap your head around Neil Gaiman's Sandman, then you can get playing a character in Nobilis.  If you couldn't, then there's certainly no shame in that.

I don't know if that was a fair description or not, but it was enough to give me a bit more of an idea of the game then I had before, so thank you.

Quote from: droogI say it's not an RPG if it doesn't involve drugs.

So that's one vote for The World of Synnibarr!

Quote from: cnath.rmI don't know if that was a fair description or not, but it was enough to give me a bit more of an idea of the game then I had before, so thank you.

Gaiman's work was a major inspiration for Nob and it shows, which explains Ken Hite's comment about "Neil Gaiman's Sandman and Clive Barker's Hellraiser on an absinthe bender"... It's not an exact match, and you'd probably have to tweak the setting a little in order to play the Endless themselves, mostly because they come closer to Imperators in the game which also features more than one family running things. On the other hand, the Corinthian or Fiddler's Green would work as PCs without any problems at all.

All in all, if figuring out The Whispering Vault doesn't cause you trouble, neither should this one. They are similar in quite a few ways.

(Some time ago I posted a little description along with linkage over at GameCraft, although admittedly I was half-asleep at the time.)

Quote from: John MorrowIn more simple terms, I once thought that "realism" required randomness because I think randomness does a decent job of reflecting elements of the real world, but there are other people who don't feel that way.

Dice are just a to simulate not knowing things in the real world.  Take simulators. They don't use randomness inside them. Sometimes though people feed randomized data into them though to try find out what will happen under a variety of different conditions.

As well looking to wargames you see that diceless/randomless is not uncommon.

Which all boils down to Gary being much more a [lovable] limelight loving ol' git than any source of deep insight into RPGs.

Quote from: GrimGent(Some time ago I posted a little description along with linkage over at GameCraft, although admittedly I was half-asleep at the time.)

Interesting, I now have an even better idea of the game, and pretty much know it's not for me. (not sure I know enough people who would enjoy that kind of game, and I'm not sure I could do that complicated of a world justice, just like Over the Edge) But I know more then I did before, that's (most times) a good thing.

Quote from: blakkieWhich all boils down to Gary being much more a [lovable] limelight loving ol' git than any source of deep insight into RPGs.

I don't care if there is deep insight or not man, I enjoy reading his prose, and if I ever get the chance, I'm going to shake his hand, thank him, and get his signature.

Quote from: cnath.rm(not sure I know enough people who would enjoy that kind of game, and I'm not sure I could do that complicated of a world justice, just like Over the Edge)

Well, if it helps to get a better grip on the setting without any infodumps, you could easily run, say, a game inspired by Wolfram & Hart from Angel, with the PCs as newly promoted junior partners in an influential law firm which specializes in fulfilling wishes in return for human souls...

Quote from: jrientsBut Gary Gygax is also wrong sometimes.  IMHO anyone who thinks everything he has said or written is golden hasn't read enough Gygax to be able to form an objective opinion.

I don't think he's "wrong" neccessarily, if his definition works for him. I wouldn't cite dice as a requirement for an RPG, however. I've already developed my own personal criteria for that as listed in my sig.

That being said, dice are part of every RPG that I personally like. Randomizers make the game interesting for me and I'm just not much into anything without them (although I really groove on much of Amber's GMing advice).