Hello. I'd like some wisdom/advice/directions to the nearest bathroom. If you would be so kind.

I want to create a homebrew, fairly generic fantasy campaign. Right off the top, let me say, I do not enjoy D&D. The Vancian magic is pretty much enough for me but I also don't like the massive glut of classes, prestige or otherwise. At any rate, I want to make it clear that modifying D&D to fit my needs isn't an option. So, let's not talk about that please.

Other important particulars:
1) I want a somewhat freeform magic system. Being able to have multiple magic systems is a major plus. (For the setting.)
2) I'd like it to be classless, but that's not a deal breaker.
3) I'm a medium crunch fellow. I like some extra bits here and there but just the idea of FATAL makes me cry.
4) I don't mind doing some tweaking.
5) I have no loyalties to systems.

Things I've tried/looked at:
1) I was pretty much hooked in on using True20 and the True Sorcery book as the magic system. I had some problems getting it to work. And my idea of adding a bell curve by using 2D10, made me worry that things might be out of balance. I'm not against this because I did work with it for awhile, but something about it just didn't feel right, so I started looking at other avenues.

2) GURPS 4th. I'm really interested in this. And I do have some experience with GURPS 3rd. Problem is, those experiences weren't terrific. They were just so-so. And the glut of advantages, disadvantages just seems like too much. I'd rather keep the lists pretty short if possible.

3) I just found this: Open Core Role Playing System
Anyone know anything about it? Could it work? I mean, ten bucks, what the hell, maybe I'll download and check it out. Unless someone here thinks this a waste and suggests otherwise, I might just do that. I can't imagine what kind of magic system it may have.

4) The thread here about D6 going SRD has me very interested. Star Wars D6 was one of the RPGs I cut my teeth on and enjoy the system very much. We never got that far, but I've heard it breaks down in higher levels. I don't have the problem with dice pools some people do (a modded version of the new Storytelling system was an idea at one point). 1 vs 10 dice, it's all the same to me as long as it's a solid system.

If you don't mind, try to talk into one of the above ideas or something I probably have never heard of! It'd be a big help.

I anxiously await your suggestions and recommendations.

What are your feelings about Savage Worlds?  It's my current go-to generic system of choice.  But I have only played a single one-shot of it in a fantasy setting (Dark Sun and it worked great).  So I don't know how well it will work for a longer term fantasy campaign.

It falls nicely into medium crunch with an emphasis on speedy, semi-tactical combat.  The magic/powers system is very generic where you bolt on different trappings depending on the genre ("Bolt" is a magic missile in fantasy, a mind blast in psionics and a Ray-O-Gun in pulp).  It's the one part of the system that you could probably succesfully re-configure to fit specific demands of your campaign.  

The Test Drive rules are here (it's a pdf):

http://www.peginc.com/Games/Savage%20Worlds/Downloads/SW%20Rev/TestDrive4.pdf

walkerp pretty much stole my post.  Classless, medium crunch, with tweakable magic is pretty much exactly what Savage Worlds does in a nutshell.  I've used it for modern day X-Files type stuff and a roaring 20's mobster game.  I've also played some pretty straight D&D style fantasy with it.

Depending on what you consider "medium" crunch, the Epic RPG might be to your liking. Check out the reviews section for my review of it.

RPGPundit

I have only given Savage Worlds a cursory glance before. I'm looking at the free rules pdf when I find time here at work. It's intriguing. Thanks for the heads up.

Pundit, I just searched the reviews and I only found two reviews of EPIC. Neither of them by you. Do you have a link?

Edit: NM, I searched your blog for it. Found it there.

Quote from: KazOther important particulars:
1) I want a somewhat freeform magic system. Being able to have multiple magic systems is a major plus. (For the setting.)

2) GURPS 4th. I'm really interested in this. And I do have some experience with GURPS 3rd. Problem is, those experiences weren't terrific. They were just so-so. And the glut of advantages, disadvantages just seems like too much. I'd rather keep the lists pretty short if possible.

My needs for my Majestic Wilderlands are pretty similar, however I consider myself to be a heavy crunch kinda of guy.  I used GURPS 3rd along with GURPS 4th as my primary system. I feel that GURPS 4th is an improvement as it's advantage system allow a lot more flexibility than 3rd.

For my Majestic Wilderlands, I used several distinct Magic System.

1) GURPS Magic for my straight wizards. With additional tweaks to distinguish between related orders of magic. See http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/magic.html for details

2) A clerical magic system that uses a fundamentally different rule for casting combined with spell drawn from GURPS Magic. See http://home.earthlink.net/~wilderlands/clerical.html

3) A "mage magic" system based on GURPS Mage the Ascension. The premise of mage magic is that normal "magic" (clerical or wizardly) is based on the manipulation of mana to achieve various effects. Mage magic is the actual alteration of reality based on will alone. It is consider the fundamental power of the gods.

Considering that GURPS 4th edition Magic is virtually similar to it's 3rd edition counterpart GURPS Cabal may be of interest. It overlays a historical magic system on top of the GURPS Magic system. It is written by the master of weirdness Ken Hite.

Then GURPS 3rd has a Ritual system found in GURPS Voodoo and GURPS Spirit that can be ported to 4th easily enough.

Finally GURPS 4th provided new advantage that function as building blocks.

I may be a guy who loves crunch but I am also a guy who doesn't have a tremendous amount of time to create whole new system. GURPS works for me because there is so much material to draw from in the GURPS system that I can cobble together something, tweak it and have something that work fairly nicely.

However the ultimate toolkit RPG is Hero Games where you can make a system that emulate your world exactly given time. All you need the core rule book. The other books are useful if you want to save time.

I like Ars Magica as well and served as the starting point for my conception of Mages. But it is tightly wedded to the idea of playing mages. However the latest edition has several good books on alternative magics.

I also like Harnmaster, its combat plays fairly realistically, and it magic system is somewhat freeform. It similar to Ars Magica in that there is an order of mage but the rules for magic our pretty wide open. The RPG is not as tightly welded to Harn as you think it may be. The light edition is the one to get if you want to try it out as it only $10. http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/cfg/zoom.cfg?product_id=4001L

The main reason I like rules heavy RPGs because a lot of the work has been done. It is easier to jettison stuff then to create it. Games like Savage World, True 20, are good games but require to much work for what I do with the Majestic Wilderlands.

One thing however that may drive me away from GURPS is the problem of creating NPCs and monsters. It is a lot of work in any rules heavy system and only the fact I have years of template and generic stats stored in a binder prevents it becoming a major issue.

Hope this helps
Rob Conley

If you are thinking about using 2d10 with True20, it shouldn't disrupt things too much.

For a detailed breakdown of how using 2d10 (or even 3d6) instead of 1d20 might influence the game you can grab a copy of the Masterminds Manual. It is for M&M, but many of the rules tweaks in that book can be easily used with True20 with little or no conversion work due to the similarities between the two systems.

Also the Roma Imperious true20 setting that just got released has three new magic systems in it for use with True20.

Savage worlds is a system I associate more with Pulp than fantasy, and I consider it rules light more than rules medium, but it and True20 are both good choices IMHO, and I don't htink you can go too wrong with either.

Actually FTA may also be a possibility. It de-empasizes classes about as much as true20... I don't know if it has much in the way of alternate magic systems yet though.

Quote from: ConanMKSavage worlds is a system I associate more with Pulp than fantasy, and I consider it rules light more than rules medium, but it and True20 are both good choices IMHO, and I don't htink you can go too wrong with either.

SW is definitely playable in a fantasy setting.  There are many (like Shaintar) made for it and many people use it for fantasy.  But it's association with pulp does bring up a good point, it tends towards heroic characters. Not necessarily cinematic, but characters who stand above the rest and will generally go toe-to-toe with the major baddies.  If you are looking for a gritty campaign setting, SW might not be the best bet is all I'm trying to say.

Open Core is ok.  I picked it up when RPGnow was having their free thanks giving give away.  It's a pretty generic system and would require work to make it feel like it fits a specific setting.  It's more naturally suited to a Super Hero setting.  Personally I wouldn't bother with it and instead of you are interested in it check out Tri-Stat it's free has more support and is just as generic.  I wouldn't recommend paying $10 for it.  It's got nothing in it that other similar systems don't have.

of the ones you've mentioned I'd say stick with true20 using 2d10 it creates an even playing field across the board, it promotes skills over stats and it shouldn't have a significant impact on the system since combat is based around the D20 roll and not a straight damage roll.  It'll balance out pretty well.  We've actually done it in our group, but we've only used it up to level 5 so far.  So to level 5 it works well and feels like it should continue to do so.

I would use either one or another of these games, depending on the feel I wanted:

A: PIG's Iron Gauntlets. Very flexible and modular system with several different magic systems included.

B: FtA! The several different schools of magic are enough differentiation for most purposes.

C: My own Blood Games II in ancient mode. It has lots of very different magic systems, all of them very free-form.

My Book of Jalan "magic" system, while extremely free-form, is more precisely a powerful Psionics system, and the game isn't really fantasy, though it can be played that way.

-clash

Quote from: KazOther important particulars:
1) I want a somewhat freeform magic system. Being able to have multiple magic systems is a major plus. (For the setting.)
2) I'd like it to be classless, but that's not a deal breaker.
3) I'm a medium crunch fellow. I like some extra bits here and there but just the idea of FATAL makes me cry.
4) I don't mind doing some tweaking.
5) I have no loyalties to systems.

I anxiously await your suggestions and recommendations.

I'd recommend PIG's Iron Gauntlets, especially because I think the magic system might interest you.  No classes, low to medium crunch, easily customizable.  You can check out a free version of the base mechanics (Impresa system) here.  

http://www.pigames.net/collaborative/index.php?action=read&page=125

Or buy the game here.  

http://www.pigames.net/store/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=161

Lots of support for it available on the PIG collaborative site as well.  

Note:  I wrote the Chronicles of Amherth setting for it, but I do not make any royalties off the game, just FYI.  

Pete

EDIT:  Clash!!!!!  

This is a huge help! You guys have actually increased the number of possibilities. Thank you very much, as I will now try to give these all a looksee.

Some specific questions.

Kryyst, I want some sort of politick mechanic attached. In True20, I was just going to lift the Influence system straight from GoO's A Game of Thrones (the D20 version) and replace the Reputation mechanic. Thoughts on that, if any?

Walkerp, I do like combat gritty and the world I am imagining is pretty gritty. (It centers on the cultural and personal conflicts of two different nations sorta  'discovering' one another, hence the need for multiple magic systems, I want the two to be very different.)

Pundit, (or anyone who knows) is the political part of EPIC robust? (I see, fairly high up here, a blank for Titles/Ranks on the character sheet. Is that superfluous?)

I will look at these other links and recommendations, thank you again. It might take me a few days to get through it all so I might be resurrecting this thread in the near future with more specific questions.

Quote from: KazThis is a huge help! You guys have actually increased the number of possibilities. Thank you very much, as I will now try to give these all a looksee.

Some specific questions.

Kryyst, I want some sort of politic mechanic attached. In True20, I was just going to lift the Influence system straight from GoO's A Game of Thrones (the D20 version) and replace the Reputation mechanic. Thoughts on that, if any?

Walkerp, I do like combat gritty and the world I am imagining is pretty gritty. (It centers on the cultural and personal conflicts of two different nations sorta  'discovering' one another, hence the need for multiple magic systems, I want the two to be very different.)

Pundit, (or anyone who knows) is the political part of EPIC robust? (I see, fairly high up here, a blank for Titles/Ranks on the character sheet. Is that superfluous?)

I will look at these other links and recommendations, thank you again. It might take me a few days to get through it all so I might be resurrecting this thread in the near future with more specific questions.

Hi Kaz, based on the above, I'll also add that the Iron Gauntlets Companion outlines a social conflict mechanic that's pretty nifty.  

Pete

Let me chime in for Savage Worlds. Its spells are a spell list and not some freeform magic à Mage, but interpretable by adding trappings. Otherwise, it does what you look for.

FTA might also be a fine choice, but has rigid spell lists (though a whole load of them).

Blood Games would need a bit of tweaking as its magic system is aimed at real-world religions (or demand that you run something in the style of Ghosts&Ghouls/Castlevania with real religions). Moreover, it lacks the stock fantasy races (elves, hobbits etc.) and is very short on fantastical beasts other then horror beasts as vampires.
It can be done, but would probably demand the most work of my three suggestions.