Quote from: Warthur;732298If that's the case, why's the Edward Snowden thing such a big story?

(Disclaimer: it may not be as big a story in the US. I am regularly shocked by what the US media fails to report.)

In the USA maybe it's not such a big deal. In Europe more, I think. There is more privacy protection, there isn't any law like the patriot act. Of course we are more than happy to give our data to the NSA, but I can't tell you too much about it. Because I have to kill you too.

Back on topic. Pretty cool that you like all these games and that everyone has a different favorite.

Quote from: Warthur;732298If that's the case, why's the Edward Snowden thing such a big story?

(Disclaimer: it may not be as big a story in the US. I am regularly shocked by what the US media fails to report.)

I think Snowden's a big story, but I think it doesn't bother people like it would have 25 years ago.  I think if I could sum up the difference between '90s Delta Green and post-millennium Delta Green, it would be that Jack Bauer -- the poster-boy for post-millennial secret agent action -- would make an excellent Delta Green agent, but as much of his Sanity loss is from what he's forced to do by the government as it is the Mythos monsters he'd face.  

OTOH, from all of the discussions I've heard on various podcasts and in forums, it seems like New DG will have just as many options to play a rogue cowboy outfit as well as a well-funded and dehumanizing institution as you fight the Mythos.

Over The Edge.  Enough said.

Another worth mentioning is CORPS by BTRC.

I like some Laundry or Cthulhu or SLA (Amongst the many systems I've played conspiracy games in), but really, Gumshoe trumps any system for supporting investigative play. All the pixelbitching just goes away entirely, so you're left to deal with the information you find, rather than how to find it.

Quote from: Ladybird;732337I like some Laundry or Cthulhu or SLA (Amongst the many systems I've played conspiracy games in), but really, Gumshoe trumps any system for supporting investigative play. All the pixelbitching just goes away entirely, so you're left to deal with the information you find, rather than how to find it.

Eh, I tend to find Gumshoe cancels the opportunity for types of play some people find rewarding (some people like having the option to just plain fail at an investigation) for the sake of rigidly enforcing something which should actually just be good GMing practice (namely, making sure that the investigation continues to develop whether or not the PCs found the information in question - either because events continue to evolve whilst the investigation is ongoing, or because the GM has built in sufficient redundancy in the investigation that it doesn't matter if you miss one particular clue).

I've said it before but when I am doing investigative games I like to make a distinction between information which lets the PCs work out exactly what is going on and why and information which helps them attain the result they want. Those overlap but aren't the same thing; you can take down the person responsible for a string of occult murders without necessarily understanding how he pulled them off, and you can work out the history of the ghost haunting Miserable Manor but fail to piece together enough to realise that you can settle the ghost issue fairly easily by just singing its favourite nursery rhyme so you end up having to use the soul-searing, traumatic exorcism rite instead.

Sorry to go on a rant, it's just that I see Gumshoe as part of a tendency in RPG design to be all-action-all-awesome-all-the-time rather than realising that game sessions have a flow to them, and sometimes a slow pace doesn't mean that people are bored, and sometimes players do want a chance to catch their breath, lay out the clues they have so far before them, and have a nice long discussion analysing them to work out a) whether they have enough to work out what's going on and what they need to do and b) if they don't have enough, where the gap in their information is and where the information in question is likely to be. And I like those discussions to take place through conversation rather than through dice rolling, because I consider RPGs to be basically conversation games and rules which limit the role of conversation increasingly grate on me.

Quote from: Warthur;732339Sorry to go on a rant, it's just that I see Gumshoe as part of a tendency in RPG design to be all-action-all-awesome-all-the-time rather than realising that game sessions have a flow to them, and sometimes a slow pace doesn't mean that people are bored, and sometimes players do want a chance to catch their breath, lay out the clues they have so far before them, and have a nice long discussion analysing them to work out a) whether they have enough to work out what's going on and what they need to do and b) if they don't have enough, where the gap in their information is and where the information in question is likely to be. And I like those discussions to take place through conversation rather than through dice rolling, because I consider RPGs to be basically conversation games and rules which limit the role of conversation increasingly grate on me.

You can easily fail a gumshoe investigation by putting together the information wrong, or not trusting the other characters (and I mean IC interactions, not NBA's trust mechanic), or just fucking up when you go to confront someone. Lots of potential for fun failure.

What you can't do, is fail because the dice didn't let you find a basic clue, because the system assumes players are competent enough in their fields of expertise. Sure, maybe that's something an experienced gm should deal with as a matter of course, but by moving it to the game system the gm gets more time to concentrate on running the game, instead of keeping it on track.

Commenting on wanting more conversation, less dice, is also particularly amusing, because gumshoe's one of the mechanically lightest systems around, even in it's crunchiest (Night's Black Agents) forms. I've actually met a player who can't understand it, because it's too simple for him.

The books are also full of lots of information on running investigative games. Maybe you're an experienced enough player that you don't need it, but it's the sort of solid, basic gm-ing advice that is really lacking in the hobby.

I like Conspiracy X 2.0 and The Laundry.

I think it's more dependent on setting than it is on rules set, though it likely requires something a bit gritty.

Gumshoe is really good as a concept (save a few things such as Drives, but those are easily houseruled again), but what kills it for me is the way how General Abilities (and Sanity/Stability mechanic in ToC) is handled. So I use all the advice and "methods" of GUMSHOE, while still running it as a percentage system - easier system for the "General Abilities" equivalents resolution, and instead of spending a point from Investigative Ability, players just roll, always finding core clues...if they come up with an idea to look for them in the first place.

I think this is the most confusing tidbit about GUMSHOE - there's an assumption that the GM is supposed to railroad players into finding all bits (an assumption that isn't helped by Laws GMing advice, admittedly), but it's simply not true. If the players never bother to check the cellar in the first place, tough titties - they don't find the clues. They better make off with the rest of them.  The point is to provide them with enough Core Clues, that even if they skip some, they'll still be able to figure things out if they use their brains - as well as alternative means of getting said Core Clues, so if players don't get an idea to walk into a cellar, an NPC might mention it, etc etc - but the decision is still at the party's end.

To be fair - a lot of this is in CoC's GMing advice as well. I think combining them both, with removing certain more railroadier elements of GUMSHOE, is best.

Quote from: Ladybird;732337I like some Laundry or Cthulhu or SLA (Amongst the many systems I've played conspiracy games in), but really, Gumshoe trumps any system for supporting investigative play. All the pixelbitching just goes away entirely, so you're left to deal with the information you find, rather than how to find it.

Interesting. The Esoterrorists is a game of them. I will check it out. One of the things that annoys me about investigation is my players not making a roll. And not getting what they need to get further. It doesn't happen often, because I usually have multiple outs. But occasionally they fail multiple times in a row and I need a Deus Ex Machina to fix it.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;732380Interesting. The Esoterrorists is a game of them. I will check it out. One of the things that annoys me about investigation is my players not making a roll. And not getting what they need to get further. It doesn't happen often, because I usually have multiple outs. But occasionally they fail multiple times in a row and I need a Deus Ex Machina to fix it.

You've just missed the Timewatch kickstarter - Gumshoe applied to time-travelling investigators of various kinds! - but all the current stuff is good, really, and because the guts of the system haven't changed much, it's all pretty compatible.

My personal pick would be Night's Black Agents, but that's because the setup appeals to me the most (Cool as fuck freelance spies hunt ancient vampire conspiracies). Esoterrorists is much more down-to-earth; my character in that is a newspaper reporter turned liaison for the Strathclyde Police's X-Files division (It's hard being the only civvie in a team full of cops...).

Quote from: Ladybird;732405You've just missed the Timewatch kickstarter - Gumshoe applied to time-travelling investigators of various kinds! - but all the current stuff is good, really, and because the guts of the system haven't changed much, it's all pretty compatible.

My personal pick would be Night's Black Agents, but that's because the setup appeals to me the most (Cool as fuck freelance spies hunt ancient vampire conspiracies). Esoterrorists is much more down-to-earth; my character in that is a newspaper reporter turned liaison for the Strathclyde Police's X-Files division (It's hard being the only civvie in a team full of cops...).

Cool any other good books. I am not really familiar with these ones.

Quote from: 3rik;732369I think it's more dependent on setting than it is on rules set, though it likely requires something a bit gritty.

I agree with this statement

Quote from: Ladybird;732351What you can't do, is fail because the dice didn't let you find a basic clue, because the system assumes players are competent enough in their fields of expertise. Sure, maybe that's something an experienced gm should deal with as a matter of course, but by moving it to the game system the gm gets more time to concentrate on running the game, instead of keeping it on track.

What's a basic clue? A clue that's needed to win the scenario? A clue that's needed to understand what's going on? A clue that's needed for the game to progress? I'm comfortable with not finding the first and second as a player (as are my players when I run stuff) and consider the third part to be all about scenario design. If you don't design investigations with such choke points then you don't need to spend any time at all keeping the game "on track".

I take your point about advice on running investigative games being useful, but if you define "investigative game" as "a game where the PCs always find the important clues" to me that's like defining a hack-and-slash game as "a game where the PCs win all the fights". I want the investigation to be a proper challenge, so finding the clues must be a proper challenge.

Quote from: Warthur;732436If you don't design investigations with such choke points then you don't need to spend any time at all keeping the game "on track".

It's the Three Clue Rule.
ToC has some great write-ups of the Mythos, good scenarios... but it tried to 'fix' what wasn't broken. To my tastes its 'fix' kinda removes some of the fun.