I wonder if there's any alternatives to the Noddest myth for Vampire: The Masquerade for those who don't want to use it or present it as a myth? I heard Dark Ages Vampires had other options yet the other options don't exist in the modern era leaving the Noddest myth as "universal truth" which can be highly problematic for me.

However I think it doesn't help that the generation system for example is tied and serves as proof that the Noddest myth (including Caine, Antediluvians, and even Gehenna with the very possibility of the withering, wormwood, etc) is real which rules out any alternatives unless you have to alter the mechanics like replacing generation with blood potency unless I'm wrong though.

So what other alternatives out there can be used as Vampire origins?

What I would do is to not have a single unifying vampire origin myth but to have many. You could have a number ties to various religions.

There are all sorts of figures in Greek mythology which could be similar to Caine. Tantalus, for example, stole ambrosia from the gods - the food which could bring immortality. He also killed his own son, cut him up, and fead him to the gods as a feast. As a punishment, the gods forced him to stand beneath a fruit tree that he could never eat from forever. With a few tweaks, Tantalus could be the originator of vampires in Greek mythology.

Quote from: Sergeant Brother;822951What I would do is to not have a single unifying vampire origin myth but to have many. You could have a number ties to various religions.

There are all sorts of figures in Greek mythology which could be similar to Caine. Tantalus, for example, stole ambrosia from the gods - the food which could bring immortality. He also killed his own son, cut him up, and fead him to the gods as a feast. As a punishment, the gods forced him to stand beneath a fruit tree that he could never eat from forever. With a few tweaks, Tantalus could be the originator of vampires in Greek mythology.

Speaking of Greek Mythology, maybe there could be something involving Dionysus since if you read his characteristics, he sounds like a reverse version of Dracula (drinks wine, hedonistic life style, etc) which maybe he cursed someone who wanted to be like him and became the first Vampire....

Quote from: Cryptofblood;822948I wonder if there's any alternatives to the Noddest myth for Vampire: The Masquerade for those who don't want to use it or present it as a myth? I heard Dark Ages Vampires had other options yet the other options don't exist in the modern era leaving the Noddest myth as "universal truth" which can be highly problematic for me.

However I think it doesn't help that the generation system for example is tied and serves as proof that the Noddest myth (including Caine, Antediluvians, and even Gehenna with the very possibility of the withering, wormwood, etc) is real which rules out any alternatives unless you have to alter the mechanics like replacing generation with blood potency unless I'm wrong though.

So what other alternatives out there can be used as Vampire origins?

Shouldn't you just be playing Requiem instead?

You could have each clan have its own origin myth - or, in the case of the Tremere, documented and recorded history, since they only turned a few centuries ago. Is there really one one true vampirism with the clans being different expressions of it, or is "vampirism" a catch-all term for a set of mutually exclusive conditions with a number of features in common but a number of features that differ from each other? Who can say? Either way, you know damn well that each clan believes that they are the Best Vampires and everyone else is barely a step above a Twilight-esque sparklepire in comparison.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;823063Shouldn't you just be playing Requiem instead?

Thing is I don't like Requiem due to the fact that Vampires are weaker as in they can't use disciplines for combat unlike in Masquerade among other problems like Fog of Eternity, being even more unforgiving, I can't remember the name but Requiem Vampires frenzy everyime they meet a new vampire, plus it's NWoD, etc.

So I rather stick to Masquerade, sorry but I just want to find a way to change things around.

It would be a lot easier to make the Caine origin story less prominent in V:tM than to incorporate elements of V:tM into V:tR.

Anyway, maybe the idea of Caine as the first vampire could be something unique to the Sabbat, or at least not that popular outside of it. In the middle ages when the Anarch Revolt happened, a fair number of elders were likely still pagans and believed in pagan myths about vampiric origins. You young vampires of Europe, those who would become the Anarchs and later the Sabbat, would be primarily Christian.

In rebelling against the elders, there could have been some aspect of Christian vs pagan there, where the rebels eventually morphed into religious fanatics who enforced one particular origin story upon their members - that presented in the Book of Nod.

I don't think the generation system is necessarily tied to, or even necessarily implies, that the Noddist myth is true.  Starting vamps in V:tDA are 12th gen, even though they're playing roughly 1000 years before the modern era.  Somewhere in canon, it states that a lot of these neonates get wiped out in the Anarch Revolt, along with several elders, which helps explain why generation has only reached 13 by the time of V:tM.

There's no reason cullings like this couldn't have happened multiple times in vampire (pre-)history, and there's no reason the 1st generation had to be a single individual.  The Tremere have demonstrated that no "first cause" was even necessary.

So, every clan could have its own origin myth.  Ditto for vamps from different cultures.  Who's to say which of them is true?

The actual origin of vampirism would likely be stranger not only than anyone imagines, but stranger than they can imagine...

Transylvania, land of dark forests, dread mountains and black unfathomable lakes. Still the home of magic and devilry as the nineteenth century draws to its close. Count Dracula, monarch of all vampires is dead. But his disciples live on to spread the cult and corrupt the world...

I'd go back to Dracula as a mythological figure, ramp up the Hammer film factor, tie vampirism with satanic blood rites and call it a day.

Then again, I am fed up with humane 90s vampires. Christopher Lee's diabolical and unyieldingly evil vampirism hasn't aged nearly half as badly.

Quote from: King Truffle IV;823102There's no reason cullings like this couldn't have happened multiple times in vampire (pre-)history, and there's no reason the 1st generation had to be a single individual.  The Tremere have demonstrated that no "first cause" was even necessary.

Well I do have several ideas that maybe Caine isn't the only first generation Vampire (or maybe I could have it that he did existed along side other mythological human progenitors who also existed but never was a Vampire at all but a man with a curse and maybe he already got killed off by a blind archer I remember reading somewhere...) and there's actually others like Cherokee legend of Jumlin for example, or anyone who has been cursed or gifted by a Deity (since Caine and Dracula possibly fits this glove), Spirits or Fae (Jumlin), or someone self-made themselves as a Vampire via Alchemy...

Quote from: Skyrock;823115Then again, I am fed up with humane 90s vampires. Christopher Lee's diabolical and unyieldingly evil vampirism hasn't aged nearly half as badly.

Then again, it depends on what context you mean by "evil" however....

"Evil" as in indisputably, disgustingly and unquavering evil. That kind of evil still can have honour, panache and standards, but it is still evil nonetheless.

Even Hammer has a couple of humane vampires (the old Baroness in "Brides of Dracula" who manages to hold off from attacking Van Helsing and gets willingly destroyed, the Priest renfield-type in "Dracula has risen from the Grave" who visibly struggles with Draculas influence and manages a heel-face-turn), but they are notable exceptions, and even they struggle constantly. They are most certainly not the norm.

"Please try and understand this is not Lucy, the sister you loved. Its only a shell, possessed and corrupted by the evil of Dracula. To liberate her soul and give her peace we must destroy that shell for all time. Believe me, there is no other way."

Quote from: Skyrock;823122"Evil" as in indisputably, disgustingly and unquavering evil. That kind of evil still can have honour, panache and standards, but it is still evil nonetheless.

Even Hammer has a couple of humane vampires (the old Baroness in "Brides of Dracula" who manages to hold off from attacking Van Helsing and gets willingly destroyed, the Priest renfield-type in "Dracula has risen from the Grave" who visibly struggles with Draculas influence and manages a heel-face-turn), but they are notable exceptions, and even they struggle constantly. They are most certainly not the norm.

"Please try and understand this is not Lucy, the sister you loved. Its only a shell, possessed and corrupted by the evil of Dracula. To liberate her soul and give her peace we must destroy that shell for all time. Believe me, there is no other way."

Then again I think the "evil" from the context of the original Bram Stoker's Dracula & Hammer is simply anything that does not fit christian values and they're simply strawman characters.

I think in reality, I think Vampires should stray away or beyond from the Christian notions of "Good & Evil" and it's best to have them still human in a sense but they're undead, drink blood, have powers, etc.

Personally, what interests me about V:tM isn't the struggle to maintain humanity, but the political intrigues mostly evil vampires engage in. Like an undead version of Baron Harkonnen, Tywin Lannister, or Michael Corleone.

Quote from: Skyrock;823115I'd go back to Dracula as a mythological figure, ramp up the Hammer film factor, tie vampirism with satanic blood rites and call it a day.

Then again, I am fed up with humane 90s vampires. Christopher Lee's diabolical and unyieldingly evil vampirism hasn't aged nearly half as badly.

I think it would be cool for vampires to be something like cliches, necromancers who want to preserve their lives and transform themselves into undead creatures.

Quote from: Cryptofblood;823126Then again I think the "evil" from the context of the original Bram Stoker's Dracula & Hammer is simply anything that does not fit christian values and they're simply strawman characters.

I think in reality, I think Vampires should stray away or beyond from the Christian notions of "Good & Evil" and it's best to have them still human in a sense but they're undead, drink blood, have powers, etc.

I don't think that either Stoker's or Hammer's version of Dracula was bad just for being non-Christian.

You know to be frankly honest I never meet anyone that honestly gave a shit about the struggle for humanity.  What drags most people to vampire are two things.  One for those that know what to expect it is the politics.  For those that joined up like I did it was because you play as a blood sucking monster of whoop ass.  I was expecting Hellsing Alucard, but got vampire Tywin instead.

Either politics or occult mystery. The first you can do as well with mage or changeling. The second you can do with any wod game, but I honestly think mortals or hunters works the best. Maybe werewolf as well.

Me I play the games for the occult mystery/dark investigation aspects. I don't care much for the factions in the games, while I do love factions. I think I only love factions when they serve as an excuse to do something you were already intending to do. Like a faction of relic hunters when you already wanted to relic hunt and just need an organisation to give you missions and some backup. The factions in wod are almost like political parties. All ideology and really focused on what they think of each other. I like practical organisations better.