Greetings!
The group of players in one of my campaigns are about to gather together in the town of Ghandhev. Ghandhev is a large town on the edge of civilized lands, at an important crossroads where trade routes meet, as well as two large rivers. The town and others like it are part of a barony which rules over the area.
The town of Ghandhev is home to a dominant human culture, while also supporting several sub-cultures of barbarians and foreigners.
A popular location in the town is the local bazaar, which features over 100 small shops, as well as open-air markets, farmer's markets, butcher shops and open-air meat grills, where kabobs are cooked, as well as a variety of chickens, lambs, goat meat and fish, in addition to beef. Giant Toads, Giant Snake, and Giant Weasel meat is also available.
So, I have curious, inquisitive players that will surely ask me numerous esoteric questions.:D
How is all of this meat kept safe to eat? Huge amounts of meat are cooked fresh, day in and day out, starting fairly early in the morning, and ongoing until later in the evening, often around 10 or Midnight.
I have been to similar environments in our current day, but we use air conditioning, elaborate gas and electric grills, and well-equipped refrigerators.
I know in ancient and medieval times, there were similar bazaars and open-air meat grills and such. How did medieval people keep all this meat going fresh and safe to eat? I'm assuming they must have had some technique or process, because people continued to patronize such bazaars and meat vendors in similar places, for centuries. Mass illnesses didn't seem to break out under such conditions, which I find a bit surprising. Evidently different drinks were offered, from goat milk and alcohol, to tea as well. There were also fresh fruits and vegetables. How does all this stuff stay fresh for people to eat and drink every day?
Any thoughts? Maybe I'm forgetting something from long ago studies, or just overlooking some aspect.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I lived in the Philippines for several years, and there fish were left on hot cement to dry under the sun. The conditions were far from sanitary, but dried fish keep for quite a long time.
Quote from: Mishihari;1127406I lived in the Philippines for several years, and there fish were left on hot cement to dry under the sun. The conditions were far from sanitary, but dried fish keep for quite a long time.
Greetings!
Hello, Mishihari! Very interesting! Years ago, I worked in a grocery store, in California. We were always trained thoroughly and constantly reminded about health procedures, temperature controls, cooking protocols, refrigerator temperatures, cooking temperatures and so on. I have heard that America is safety and health conscious to a crazy level and intensity--distinctly different from other countries. I can see how that would be true. *laughing*
Your point is well-taken. Many kinds of meat and foods are more resilient--and safely edible--than we sometimes realize fully!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Depends on what is being sold really. And the shop.
For example if its fresh meat then its probably only sold for a day at best and any that isnt sold goes home for example. I know in some cases the animals were slaughtered only as needed and in others theres some prep time or various processes that were and still are performed. Before the advent of ice houses there was not alot one could do with raw meat to keep it fresh for an extended period without some sort of processing such as salting or curing it. You could keep stuff in a cool cellar and that will extend the shelf life depending on the produce. As noted in the other thread one set of relatives created and ran an open market. But did have coolers of various sorts set up by the time I was out there with family. Which was fairly regular.
Depending on the region and era there were various techniques and recipes for handling meat to make it last longer.
My great grandparents as mentioned in a related thread lived up in the mountains with no modern or even semi-modern utilities. Everything was either brought in from town or had on location. So produce was bought and used ASAP, meat was killed and cooked ASAP. Unfortunately that is about all I know and all that was from observation on the few trips out there. I recall them keeping stuff cold by placing it in a hole in the ground outside the house. In the hole was a block of ice. Frontier refrigerator?
As I understand it, rancid, rotting meat is still safe to eat ... you just need to make sure it's cooked well enough, and deal with the fact that safe doesn't necessarily mean tasty.
Theres a reason people have always payed good money for spices.
See also: Green steak. The "green" is literal, and apparently it is tasty.. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/mar/11/extreme-aged-steak-meat-with-mould-on-gourmet
An open market or major bazaar would just have sellers drive the animals there on foot, slaughter them on the spot, then cook them whichever way would be convenient before the clients would start arriving (still early in the morning). Everything was reasonably fresh, and prepared by specialists who mostly knew their stuff, honed at several fairs and through generations. Some, like in France, were even guildsmen of a sort (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confr%C3%A9rie_de_la_Cha%C3%AEne_des_R%C3%B4tisseurs).
The proverbial "ox on a spit" is a typical market invention; their modern descendants are the various kebabs, gyros and grilled meats. These are now typically foods you can find at wine/beer festivals and musical events with strict inspection, but this is a fairly modern trend. In South-Eastern Europe, Turkey and Asia, there is a tremendous grilling culture with incredible variety. "Rat on a stick" style mystery meat would be regular street food, reasonably freshly prepared. Victorian London had jellied eels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jellied_eels), sold by vendors to people rushing to their work. And again: people knew their stuff, because they often did it all their lives. Roasting is a reasonably safe technique. Drinking alcohol would help.
Then you would have huge cauldrons of thick soups and stews, or anything that would be convenient to prepare that way. Pilaf (plov) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilaf) is a typical, and very delicious example, which benefits from being made in enormous quantities. Pottage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottage) and the iconic mediaeval "everything stew" follow a similar philosophy, eaten with thick bread loaves. These are dishes cooked under constant fire, and replenished regularly with new ingredients. Some of the ingredients could be stored (vegetables, flour, rice or wheat), and fresh meat would be added on the spot. The animals, again, would largely have to walk there on their own, or be brought from a nearby farm, who would bring their produce and animals to feed the crowd or be sold to the people who would cook them.
There is an extent to which things can be preserved. Pickled things, marinated meats and sauerkraut are fairly good here, and smoked sides of meat and bacon pack a lot of flavour for a relatively low weight, but there are limits in storage and transportation. You can't get around it.
You also have varied sweets (one of my grandma's relatives was a gingerbread maker in Transylvania, who would still go to fairs well in to the 1970s; the exact recipes and techniques were jealously guarded trade secrets, along with the wooden "forms" (https://www.neprajz.hu/binaries/content/gallery/gyujtemenyek-imageset/a-honap-mutargya/2017_november/59294b.jpg/59294b.jpg/neprajz%3Adocument), which were very elaborate and expensive pieces of woodcarving), pies and flatbreads, fruits, candies and roasted nuts, boiled corn on the cob, the traditional rooster lollypop (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/jlw0MG71mEaEFQwS8jEaqUVBpWQbE9AdB4bU__v3royJ90R0cyLsJXXh4JKvWtczTvpyNhjNyy2j1RAXY4S3vgXP-iO_zLFAah_PzZNc), lokum, Turkey's typical sweets (Turkish delight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_delight), halva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halva), brittles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittle_(food))), and so on. Even regular sugar cones, still a rarity. Confectioners would travel quite far from their homes, often going fair to fair through multiple countries to sell their wares (Turks [which could just as well mean a Bosniak or Albanian], Armenians, Greeks and Jews were typical).
Nonetheless, everyone who has been to a traditional market or fair has had an encounter with diarrhea and spoiled food. These accidents were treated more liberally, since you typically did not die of them, but tampering with food, or selling spoiled stuff might get the seller fined heavily or banned / driven out - a reputation like that could pursue someone for the rest of his life, and ruin his future business prospects in the area for a long time.
Also, the old adage stands: the history of human gastronomy is the history of trying to creatively reuse spoiled or suspicious food. From spoiled milk comes yogurt, from spoiled ogurt comes cheese, from spoiled cheese come roquefort and camembert. Beer, wine, and bread are all products of things that had gone bad due to being left out too long, and some ancestor of ours looking at the fermented results, asking "Am I hungry enough to try that?".
Let's not forget salt. Salt was such an important resource that early on, Roman legionnaires were paid in it.
Salting, drying and curing meat definitely lets it last longer.
Take a massive chunk of ice from a mountain top, place it in a container, place insulator around it (straw, wool, etc.), and haul it to where the open air market is and place it in an ice house. IIRC, ice houses were found in 1780BC, so they have been around for quite some time.
There is even a Wikipedia entry on them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_house_(building)).
EDIT:
Actually, a Yakhchāl might be better suited for your border town. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhch%C4%81l)
Spices like curry, garlic, onion and other preservatives. Salting & drying.
Not exactly the question, but the quantities of meat are probably going to be kept low by today's standards, instead supplementing with bread and other items easier to preserve. I suspect dried fruits would be a big one.
By the time I was around, most of my older relatives had stopped salting meat and that sort of thing but dried fruit hung around much longer to supplement the canning process. Admittedly, most of the fruit we dried ended up in a freezer to preserve it for several years, but if you need it this fall/winter, a good cellar will do for fruit dried this summer. It's ridiculously easy to do, so much that you can trust a child to help as soon as they can be trusted with a knife (which was age 4 for me, which is why I got several years doing it). It is time intensive, but those young children typically have some time on their hands.
Quote from: Omega;1127410Depends on what is being sold really. And the shop.
For example if its fresh meat then its probably only sold for a day at best and any that isnt sold goes home for example. I know in some cases the animals were slaughtered only as needed and in others theres some prep time or various processes that were and still are performed. Before the advent of ice houses there was not alot one could do with raw meat to keep it fresh for an extended period without some sort of processing such as salting or curing it. You could keep stuff in a cool cellar and that will extend the shelf life depending on the produce. As noted in the other thread one set of relatives created and ran an open market. But did have coolers of various sorts set up by the time I was out there with family. Which was fairly regular.
Depending on the region and era there were various techniques and recipes for handling meat to make it last longer.
My great grandparents as mentioned in a related thread lived up in the mountains with no modern or even semi-modern utilities. Everything was either brought in from town or had on location. So produce was bought and used ASAP, meat was killed and cooked ASAP. Unfortunately that is about all I know and all that was from observation on the few trips out there. I recall them keeping stuff cold by placing it in a hole in the ground outside the house. In the hole was a block of ice. Frontier refrigerator?
Greetings!
Hello, Omega! You bring up some very good points. Our ancestors and forefathers were quite resilient and creative! I know it is something of an esoteric interest in general, but the historian in me is always fascinated by how people used to really live, you know? The challenges and problems they faced, and how they dealt with them, the solutions they came up with to meet the challenge. I think that our modern society is so reliant on whizz-bang gadgets and technology--if the power was ever turned off, millions of people would likely just lay down and die.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Sable Wyvern;1127416As I understand it, rancid, rotting meat is still safe to eat ... you just need to make sure it's cooked well enough, and deal with the fact that safe doesn't necessarily mean tasty.
Theres a reason people have always payed good money for spices.
See also: Green steak. The "green" is literal, and apparently it is tasty.. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/mar/11/extreme-aged-steak-meat-with-mould-on-gourmet
Greetings!
Hello, Sable Wyvern! Yes, there's some very good reasons why spices were so highly valued! Salt and Pepper at various times and in certain areas were literally as valuable as *gold*.:D
Green Steak. Ewww!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1127432Not exactly the question, but the quantities of meat are probably going to be kept low by today's standards, instead supplementing with bread and other items easier to preserve. I suspect dried fruits would be a big one.
By the time I was around, most of my older relatives had stopped salting meat and that sort of thing but dried fruit hung around much longer to supplement the canning process. Admittedly, most of the fruit we dried ended up in a freezer to preserve it for several years, but if you need it this fall/winter, a good cellar will do for fruit dried this summer. It's ridiculously easy to do, so much that you can trust a child to help as soon as they can be trusted with a knife (which was age 4 for me, which is why I got several years doing it). It is time intensive, but those young children typically have some time on their hands.
Agreed. The simple answer probably is, very little meat or fish of any sort, not for the average joe on an average day. Heavy on bread (several pounds a day!), onions, and a little pease pudding or other pulses, plus cheese, for protein.
What little meat/fish you might see would be likely dried, salted, smoked or pickled or a combination.
If you're talking big meat packages like "giant" animals, I would expect almost all would be preserved, relatively little eaten fresh. Unless you can get through it in a single feast, but that would be a very special occasion. Maybe something sponsored by a lord.
Quote from: SHARK;1127403How is all of this meat kept safe to eat?
Magic...or it isn't.
QuoteHow did medieval people keep all this meat going fresh and safe to eat?
They didn't.
QuoteHow does all this stuff stay fresh for people to eat and drink every day?
It stays fresh for a while. Then new produce and livestock is brought in regularly. And you might cook, smoke, dry, can, salt, pickle or otherwise preserve food that is getting past its sell by date, as it were. They don't call them strawberry preserves for nothing.
Quote from: Melan;1127418An open market or major bazaar would just have sellers drive the animals there on foot, slaughter them on the spot, then cook them whichever way would be convenient before the clients would start arriving (still early in the morning). Everything was reasonably fresh, and prepared by specialists who mostly knew their stuff, honed at several fairs and through generations. Some, like in France, were even guildsmen of a sort (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confr%C3%A9rie_de_la_Cha%C3%AEne_des_R%C3%B4tisseurs).
The proverbial "ox on a spit" is a typical market invention; their modern descendants are the various kebabs, gyros and grilled meats. These are now typically foods you can find at wine/beer festivals and musical events with strict inspection, but this is a fairly modern trend. In South-Eastern Europe, Turkey and Asia, there is a tremendous grilling culture with incredible variety. "Rat on a stick" style mystery meat would be regular street food, reasonably freshly prepared. Victorian London had jellied eels (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jellied_eels), sold by vendors to people rushing to their work. And again: people knew their stuff, because they often did it all their lives. Roasting is a reasonably safe technique. Drinking alcohol would help.
Then you would have huge cauldrons of thick soups and stews, or anything that would be convenient to prepare that way. Pilaf (plov) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilaf) is a typical, and very delicious example, which benefits from being made in enormous quantities. Pottage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottage) and the iconic mediaeval "everything stew" follow a similar philosophy, eaten with thick bread loaves. These are dishes cooked under constant fire, and replenished regularly with new ingredients. Some of the ingredients could be stored (vegetables, flour, rice or wheat), and fresh meat would be added on the spot. The animals, again, would largely have to walk there on their own, or be brought from a nearby farm, who would bring their produce and animals to feed the crowd or be sold to the people who would cook them.
There is an extent to which things can be preserved. Pickled things, marinated meats and sauerkraut are fairly good here, and smoked sides of meat and bacon pack a lot of flavour for a relatively low weight, but there are limits in storage and transportation. You can't get around it.
You also have varied sweets (one of my grandma's relatives was a gingerbread maker in Transylvania, who would still go to fairs well in to the 1970s; the exact recipes and techniques were jealously guarded trade secrets, along with the wooden "forms" (https://www.neprajz.hu/binaries/content/gallery/gyujtemenyek-imageset/a-honap-mutargya/2017_november/59294b.jpg/59294b.jpg/neprajz%3Adocument), which were very elaborate and expensive pieces of woodcarving), pies and flatbreads, fruits, candies and roasted nuts, boiled corn on the cob, the traditional rooster lollypop (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/jlw0MG71mEaEFQwS8jEaqUVBpWQbE9AdB4bU__v3royJ90R0cyLsJXXh4JKvWtczTvpyNhjNyy2j1RAXY4S3vgXP-iO_zLFAah_PzZNc), lokum, Turkey's typical sweets (Turkish delight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_delight), halva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halva), brittles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittle_(food))), and so on. Even regular sugar cones, still a rarity. Confectioners would travel quite far from their homes, often going fair to fair through multiple countries to sell their wares (Turks [which could just as well mean a Bosniak or Albanian], Armenians, Greeks and Jews were typical).
Nonetheless, everyone who has been to a traditional market or fair has had an encounter with diarrhea and spoiled food. These accidents were treated more liberally, since you typically did not die of them, but tampering with food, or selling spoiled stuff might get the seller fined heavily or banned / driven out - a reputation like that could pursue someone for the rest of his life, and ruin his future business prospects in the area for a long time.
Also, the old adage stands: the history of human gastronomy is the history of trying to creatively reuse spoiled or suspicious food. From spoiled milk comes yogurt, from spoiled ogurt comes cheese, from spoiled cheese come roquefort and camembert. Beer, wine, and bread are all products of things that had gone bad due to being left out too long, and some ancestor of ours looking at the fermented results, asking "Am I hungry enough to try that?".
Greetings!
Hey Melan! Fucking awesome, my friend! That is some delicious, fascinating knowledge! I love all this stuff. I think it is very interesting to learn the whole "inner workings" of how they accomplished things in the medieval times, you know? The specifics, the details of the processes they came up with to solve problems and to survive. Not always to merely survive, either, but to live well, you know? I'm a foodie too, so I always enjoy learning about food, how various recipes are made, cooked and prepared.
Medieval and ancient people liked to eat good food too!
I have been to some modern Greek festivals and cultural celebrations, where there are open-air grills with the kabobs and all that. Everything made fresh, the pita bread, the meats all sizzling on the grill. Beef, chicken, and thin strips of grilled lamb, rubbed with black pepper, garlic, and lemon juice, and other herbs. Oh my god, so delicious, my friend! I've had a Greek girl stand there and make me a plate of these doughy round pastries, fried up, dipped in warm honey, and sprinkled with powdered sugar. Oh damn. I'm telling you. All this good stuff!
Just fascinating, Melan, learning from you about how they constantly kept huge stews going, replenished with fresh meats and all that throughout the day. That's not only damned smart and efficient, but you also make it sound yummy and delicious! I'm definitely bringing these details into the game, my friend! My players love all these little details and tidbits. In some strange way, it really does seem to immerse them into their characters, and the campaign world as well. They laugh at me because I describe meals and food to them, and they get all hungry!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1127425Let's not forget salt. Salt was such an important resource that early on, Roman legionnaires were paid in it.
Salting, drying and curing meat definitely lets it last longer.
Greetings!
Oh yes, salting of meats is very useful. And indeed, Salt has been enormously valuable through history. Pepper as well!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jeff37923;1127426Take a massive chunk of ice from a mountain top, place it in a container, place insulator around it (straw, wool, etc.), and haul it to where the open air market is and place it in an ice house. IIRC, ice houses were found in 1780BC, so they have been around for quite some time.
There is even a Wikipedia entry on them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_house_(building)).
EDIT:
Actually, a Yakhchal might be better suited for your border town. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhch%C4%81l)
Greetings!
Holy fucking corndogs, Jeff!:D The
Yakhchal!! Damn, I love learning about historical stuff like this! Our ancestors were creative fucking geniuses. I have always believed that ancient peoples were far more advanced and accomplished than many modern historians often like to attribute to them and give them credit for. My god. How did this technology not spread all over the place? Imagine what this does to your typical town, you know?
Just awesome stuff, Jeff. I'm using this thing in my campaign. Damn yes. My players jaws are gonna drop when they get a load of this thing here! Fucking
Yakhchal That is just so awesome and cool, you know? And all done without magic to boot! Hah hah! So awesome!
I have always known the Persian Empire was badass, and awesome. They were uber advanced, had all kinds of quality of life technologies and processes that made them the uber society of their age. Living in the fucking Iranian deserts, to boot! I have read of special engineering canals, pipes and drain systems they figured out to pump water from hundreds of miles away, to cities in the desert, all doing it with engineered pipes, set into underground channels and using leverage, slope, angles, raising and lowering water, all using it to create subterranean water systems to provide water constantly, for hundreds of thousands of people. In the cities in the desert. In 1000 BC.
And operating sewer systems, paved roads, reservoirs, all kinds of mind-boggling inventions and technology that made them just badass and cool.:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Drying, smoking, salting, putting stuff in brine barrels and the like are all tried and true techniques. It can be used for vegetables and meat.
Quote from: SHARK;1127448Greetings!
Holy fucking corndogs, Jeff!:D The Yakhchal!! Damn, I love learning about historical stuff like this! Our ancestors were creative fucking geniuses. I have always believed that ancient peoples were far more advanced and accomplished than many modern historians often like to attribute to them and give them credit for. My god. How did this technology not spread all over the place? Imagine what this does to your typical town, you know?
Just awesome stuff, Jeff. I'm using this thing in my campaign. Damn yes. My players jaws are gonna drop when they get a load of this thing here! Fucking Yakhchal That is just so awesome and cool, you know? And all done without magic to boot! Hah hah! So awesome!
I have always known the Persian Empire was badass, and awesome. They were uber advanced, had all kinds of quality of life technologies and processes that made them the uber society of their age. Living in the fucking Iranian deserts, to boot! I have read of special engineering canals, pipes and drain systems they figured out to pump water from hundreds of miles away, to cities in the desert, all doing it with engineered pipes, set into underground channels and using leverage, slope, angles, raising and lowering water, all using it to create subterranean water systems to provide water constantly, for hundreds of thousands of people. In the cities in the desert. In 1000 BC.
And operating sewer systems, paved roads, reservoirs, all kinds of mind-boggling inventions and technology that made them just badass and cool.:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My pleasure. I run across lots of nifty things when researching for games. This was a useful "dead end" to some of my medieval distilling research.
The thing I've found is that as long you don't attribute any radical or innovative designs by ancient cultures to van Dannikanism*, you find that human beings are really inventive. For fantasy games, that includes solving every thorny problem with magic.
*van Dannikanism - any truly unique and advanced designs from the past could not be made by humans, but are the products of alien technology
Quote from: jeff37923;1127453My pleasure. I run across lots of nifty things when researching for games. This was a useful "dead end" to some of my medieval distilling research.
The thing I've found is that as long you don't attribute any radical or innovative designs by ancient cultures to van Dannikanism*, you find that human beings are really inventive. For fantasy games, that includes solving every thorny problem with magic.
*van Dannikanism - any truly unique and advanced designs from the past could not be made by humans, but are the products of alien technology
Add my approval to Shark's, jeff. I consider any day that I learn something totally new to be a good one. Today is a good day indeed. :)
A nonpowered icemaker in the middle of the Persian Empire. Color me dumbstruck and impressed.
Ancient Egyptians made ice daily, by laying innumerable shallow pans of water out in the dessert just before dawn. The rapidly rising air temperature as the sun rose caused the water to start evaporating fast enough to freeze the top layer through evaporative cooling. Then innumerable slaves collected the innumerable thin sheets of ice, stacked them into blocks, and hauled them inside to chill stuff for the day.
Obviously aliens taught them this non-euclidean technique.
What else could it be?
Jeff, thank you for the Yakhchal info! Absolutely amazing.
Conan can finally enjoy gelato!
Quote from: SHARK;1127448Our ancestors were creative fucking geniuses. I have always believed that ancient peoples were far more advanced and accomplished than many modern historians often like to attribute to them and give them credit for. My god.
I attribute it to three things:
1) There have smart, creative, inventive people in every generation.
2) Necessity is the mother of invention (and some say, laziness is the father)
3) There was no TV (aka, their free time wasn't being devoured by an idiot box)
Quote from: SHARK;1127448How did this technology not spread all over the place?
Because everyone in the past knew cultural appropriation was wrong! :)
You bring up an excellent question. It is very strange why some inventions traveled far and wide, while inventions of equal or perhaps even greater value, stayed in their own area or were even forgotten by their own people. It's odd.
Quote from: Melan;1127418Also, the old adage stands: the history of human gastronomy is the history of trying to creatively reuse spoiled or suspicious food. From spoiled milk comes yogurt, from spoiled ogurt comes cheese, from spoiled cheese come roquefort and camembert. Beer, wine, and bread are all products of things that had gone bad due to being left out too long, and some ancestor of ours looking at the fermented results, asking "Am I hungry enough to try that?".
THIS can't be overstated enough. Food (the most important resource) was always going bad. It took so much effort to raise animals, raise crops or hunt for meat and what happened next? Anything you didn't eat right away was on a short timer. Thus, man was forced to figure out what to do with rotting food (and plenty of people died in the process).
BTW, comedian Joe Mande does a funny bit about the first guy to drink milk and eat cheese
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZtwUpPSdt0&t=55s
EDIT: Mande's clip is NSFW.
Part of the reason things get lost and discoveries that you'd think would be big just seem to putter out is various.
There is the age old problem of "craftsmans secrets" and the urge to hoard techniques. Sometimes its for a reason. To get others to come up with new techniques too. But for some its just an excuse to hoard techniques. Guilds, organizations, etc even might want to keep a technique or inventions fabrication method to themselves. I've seen this in the costuming areas. And it used to be a major thing with some companies to keep their processes a secret.
Suppression by opposition can be another cause. This could be a rival craftsman, guild or business who does not want competition. Hell its still prevalent in the gaming biz. Or it might be suppressed because some group gets it in their head that this invention is bad somehow.
The technique or invention is somehow not easy to reproduce outside its inventors radius. This could be due to the area itself, the need for a specific skillset, it too time consuming vs other methods, or is otherwise not cost or time effective.
A good example might be watchmaking and repairing. The knowlegde and skills needed to design and craft a watch are very complex as is the skills to repair them. Depending on the era there was often a period of apprenticeship to learn the skills needed that could span many years depending on the tasks and teacher.
With food prep techniques Id guess sometimes the reasons are much the same. Hoarding secrets, suppression of competition, belief, or some complexity in getting stuff done that makes it hard to catch on.
Quote from: Zalman;1127575Ancient Egyptians made ice daily, by laying innumerable shallow pans of water out in the dessert just before dawn. The rapidly rising air temperature as the sun rose caused the water to start evaporating fast enough to freeze the top layer through evaporative cooling. Then innumerable slaves collected the innumerable thin sheets of ice, stacked them into blocks, and hauled them inside to chill stuff for the day.
I looked up the system and the related pit cooler sounds very close to that odd buried ice technique my great grandparents used. Maybee they made the ice too themselves. Sadly its something that I'll now never be able to uncover the reason or extent of.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1127717I attribute it to three things:
1) There have smart, creative, inventive people in every generation.
2) Necessity is the mother of invention (and some say, laziness is the father)
3) There was no TV (aka, their free time wasn't being devoured by an idiot box)
Are you practicing British understatement? :)
On #3--I'd say that they had no appreciable "free time" as we would use the term. For them, "free time" is mostly "things I don't have to do right now to survive" so that I'll spend it on "things that if I do right now might mean I'll survive next week or next month or if things are going really well, this winter."
And then summarizing a lot of what has been said: People are people, and always have been. That includes the people that prompted the fable of the scorpion stinging the frog in the river, killing them both. It's in the nature of some people to screw things up, and even things like living through next winter isn't enough to get them to stop. I suspect that if we could view through time, we'd find plenty of examples of someone coming up with a great technique that was lost because someone else had their furs in a bunch--maybe even for reasons as trivial as they didn't think of it first.
Safe is relative. I was In Turkey eating at a....restaurant...in a very open air environment. The meat was hanging (whole goat) right there near where the dude was cooking. Flies all over, and LOTS of pepper and spices. Look at the wet markets of china, animals are kept alive till killed, and once killed the meat is right there at room temp. I suspect the people who eat food prepared this way on a regular basis have immune systems that account for methods, that in the USA would get you raided. I assume adventurers of some sort in the OP post. Life on the road and iron stomachs are the best defense in such environments. I know the after hours eatery we went to at 3:30 AM had no animals hanging, but only the gods know how long the meat they were serving had been cooked before I ate it.
Ancient world/middle ages though I know the romans salted meat to preserve it (soldiers were often payed in salt). As well as heavy use of spices and spicy fish sauce. Again safe is relative, and I do not know how a 21st century gut would fare the first few weeks of eating ancient world prepared eatery fare. Eating out was a good deal more common than I thought among many citizens, free men and slaves. The wealthy tended to eat at home, and some wealthier city plebs might have the space for preparing and eating meals at home, but lots of people ate at eateries or bazaars. Ancient Rome had a million people in it, and though plagues would break out from time to time, I do not think it was old/bad food spreading sickness.
Meanwhile, gourmet restaurants charge astronomical prices for "aged steaks", with most chefs agreeing that the meat is best after sitting around and molding for 30-45 days.
Here's an interesting related tidbit from my travels in Nepal: the Nepalese people prepare their food very carefully and cleanly -- there are strict rules for all stages of preparation. All very sanitary. But, these rules are seen as religious, and there was no concept of them being for the purpose of sanitation or health. Thus, they only apply to food prepared for Hindus. A pizza restaurant in Kathmandu, for example, would feel fine about ignoring the rules of sanitation, because only westerners eat at their establishment. So, travelers got sick all the time, except for the ones that ate exclusively local fare.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1127761Are you practicing British understatement? :)
On #3--I'd say that they had no appreciable "free time" as we would use the term. For them, "free time" is mostly "things I don't have to do right now to survive" so that I'll spend it on "things that if I do right now might mean I'll survive next week or next month or if things are going really well, this winter."
Surprisingly enough (or maybe not), our various economic "revolutions" seem to have led to progressive increase in work time and a decrease in leisure time. From ca 14 hours a week to make a living hunting and gathering, to 30 hours after the agricultural revolution, 40 hours ( at least in the 20th century) after the industrial revolution, and now, even more after the IT revolution. People in the past, especially before the industrial revolution, likely had plenty of leisure time.
The difficulty in keeping food from spoiling may have been a factor in the emergence of specialized merchants like butchers.
A regular person probably can't use an entire cow before it spoils, but a butcher can slaughter a whole cow and sell it piecemeal to dozens of families in a single day.
It also explains the emphasis on farming grains, which last for years if properly stored, as opposed to fresh vegetables.
Quote from: Zirunel;1127861Surprisingly enough (or maybe not), our various economic "revolutions" seem to have led to progressive increase in work time and a decrease in leisure time. From ca 14 hours a week to make a living hunting and gathering, to 30 hours after the agricultural revolution, 40 hours ( at least in the 20th century) after the industrial revolution, and now, even more after the IT revolution. People in the past, especially before the industrial revolution, likely had plenty of leisure time.
Another consideration as well is that people have been multitasking for a very long time. You can milk cows all day and still think about something else.
It used to be that some of the greatest innovations in Japanese tech came from the manufacturing floor and not some office in Tokyo. Someone assembling a product noticed that parts could be moved, made smaller, etc.
"Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure."
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/08/29/why-a-medieval-peasant-got-more-vacation-time-than-you/
Interesting article. The medieval peasant may have died earlier than us, but worked much less.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1127884"Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure."
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/08/29/why-a-medieval-peasant-got-more-vacation-time-than-you/
Interesting article. The medieval peasant may have died earlier than us, but worked much less.
Their society was less profit driven than ours and control was more local.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1127884"Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure."
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/08/29/why-a-medieval-peasant-got-more-vacation-time-than-you/
Interesting article. The medieval peasant may have died earlier than us, but worked much less.
That's what I'm saying. And even your medieval peasant worked like a drudge compared to his hunter-gatherer ancestors who enjoyed far more leisure time, better quality of diet, and comparable food security. in many ways, our history, at least since the "broad-spectrum revolution," has been one of declining quality of life.
The victory of quantity over quality.
Quote from: Bren;1127948The victory of quantity over quality.
Essentially, yes
The number one contributor to inequality is the development and refinement of civilization.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1127884"Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure."
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/08/29/why-a-medieval-peasant-got-more-vacation-time-than-you/
Interesting article. The medieval peasant may have died earlier than us, but worked much less.
That article sounds like a lie. A peasant with 150 days off per year? I bet that author thinks that Milk comes from the Supermarket.
Quote from: Shasarak;1127960That article sounds like a lie. A peasant with 150 days off per year? I bet that author thinks that Milk comes from the Supermarket.
Everybody knows milk magically arrives on the doorstep after you push buttons on an app which integrates cows with Uber.
I don't doubt the 150 days off...however, I suspect many "off days" involved labor around their home or mandatory church days. The 215 work days were working their Lord's land, not their own fields. Also, before the modern age, the world mostly shut down in winter so that would attribute for at least 3-4 months (90-120 days).
Sounds to me more like ivory tower theorizing about how an agrarian society actually functions. There are a lot of little and not so little tasks that need doing all the time. Some of them you can even do sitting down. So "leisure time" is mending, sewing, weeding a vegetable garden, etc. You know, the physically easy stuff. That's mixed in with daily tasks that are done without exception such as cooking meals and tending animals. Those are done even on the holidays--albeit the holidays are more numerous than now. You need that kind of "time off" from hard physical labor. Which is not just tending a field, as hard as that is, but also hauling rocks (fences, roads), cutting firewood, and the like.
Now, compared to early industrial period, when you had whole families down to small children working in dangerous factories six and seven days a week, sometimes for 12+ hours a day--yeah, the above is a picnic. Not least because while agrarian work is more dangerous than most people can imagine, it is at least varied. Not many "repetitive motion" injuries on a farm. Compared to today? Ha! Let that writer do what I once did--spend an hour nearly every day during two winters splitting firewood with an axe and maul, then get back to me. Also, as with any work, some people take to agrarian work more than others. Some people do the sewing because they must, but others enjoy it as well. And so forth.
Re: life spans. I know you guys know this, because I'm not the only one that has said it here, but medieval life spans aren't terribly different than ours. The difference in average life expectancy is mostly the difference in infant mortality and young women dying in child birth.
Circling back on topic, preparing food for an open market grill is again, a lot of work. It's work that the practitioners are going to do well usually, because that's the kind of thing that people get amazingly efficient at when they do it all the time. Plus, as with any physical labor short of the really back breaking stuff, you get acclimated to it fairly quickly. Since it is an optional occupation, the people that enjoy it are probably the ones that are going to be the most successful.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1128018Sounds to me more like ivory tower theorizing about how an agrarian society actually functions.
Circling back on topic, preparing food for an open market grill is again, a lot of work. It's work that the practitioners are going to do well usually, because that's the kind of thing that people get amazingly efficient at when they do it all the time. Plus, as with any physical labor short of the really back breaking stuff, you get acclimated to it fairly quickly. Since it is an optional occupation, the people that enjoy it are probably the ones that are going to be the most successful.
1: Pretty much.
2: Another thing is connections and/or startup funds. You do not start a eatery without, well, stuff to eat. And growing the stuff and prepping and selling it every day do not go together as full time jobs. So the persons selling food tend to need some form of connections to get it. That could be as simple as other family members are running the farm side and supplying. The other is the bit quite as simple process of buying from people bringing produce and livestock in to sell.
My relatives with the market had both their own farm and connections to other farmers who brought their stuff in to sell. Some family members worked the market full time and the rest handled the increasingly larger farm. Which brings up another option for farmers. Just bring the stuff in and have someone else sell it for you. That way you dont have to hang around and hawk your wares all day.
My grandparents just cut out the middle man and went straight to the source to buy some of their stuff.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1128018Sounds to me more like ivory tower theorizing about how an agrarian society actually functions. There are a lot of little and not so little tasks that need doing all the time. Some of them you can even do sitting down. So "leisure time" is mending, sewing, weeding a vegetable garden, etc. You know, the physically easy stuff. That's mixed in with daily tasks that are done without exception such as cooking meals and tending animals. Those are done even on the holidays--albeit the holidays are more numerous than now. You need that kind of "time off" from hard physical labor. Which is not just tending a field, as hard as that is, but also hauling rocks (fences, roads), cutting firewood, and the like.
No, not necessarily ivory tower theorizing, a lot of this is based on direct observation: logging and quantifying time allocations of cultivators, time and motion studies etc. It's been a long time since I reviewed any of that literature, but as I recall, weeding of any sort, even a kitchen garden, is generally not classified as leisure time.
But there is some truth in what you are saying. "Leisure time" often does include light work that can be done while drinking, smoking, socializing: making and repairing tools and craft items etc. Often fairly lackadaisical work, but still productive work.
Now, the blurring of work and leisure goes the other way too. Especially among tropical forest cultivators, where plots are hidden in forest, "weeding" is often just an excuse for discreet sexual liaisons. At least some of the time supposedly spent working is actually spent hooking up and gittin it awn. Obviously, hard to quantify just how much weeding work is actually done.
Quote from: Zirunel;1128039Now, the blurring of work and leisure goes the other way too. Especially among tropical forest cultivators, where plots are hidden in forest, "weeding" is often just an excuse for discreet sexual liaisons. At least some of the time supposedly spent working is actually spent hooking up and gittin it awn. Obviously, hard to quantify just how much weeding work is actually done.
Absolutely. Tropical regions puts another spin on the whole thing anyway, because relative lack of "winter" means that planning can be more day by day, week by week. There is some truth to the idea that the "Protestant work ethic" was really, "a subset of people in a region self-selected for not starving in the winter time". :D
Greetings!
When I was in college, I was intrigued by seeing numerous documentaries about tribal peoples in my Anthropology classes. My professor had spent extensive time living amongst some primitive tribes in southern Africa.
While most of these tribes were affected to varying degrees by "Cargo Cult Culture"--they were quite primitive, and lived mostly by hunting and gathering, and light agriculture. My professor explained that in contrast to our own modern society, the tribal people only worked about 4-6 hours a day. The rest of the time they spent socializing, eating, playing and relaxing. These primitive tribal peoples possess much more leisure time every day than people in modern society. The tribal people are also considerably more content, happy, and stress-free in their day to day lives.
It was very interesting to learn.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1128041Absolutely. Tropical regions puts another spin on the whole thing anyway, because relative lack of "winter" means that planning can be more day by day, week by week. There is some truth to the idea that the "Protestant work ethic" was really, "a subset of people in a region self-selected for not starving in the winter time". :D
Well, tropical forests can still have marked wet/dry seasonality. Most tasks of cultivation still have to be planned and executed to a schedule. There's a right time to cut and clear, there's a right time to burn, there's a right time to plant.
but it's true there may be no intensive Harvest time with its period of abundance followed by little or no production. On the other hand, in some places there might be. It kind of depends on what you are growing. Then there's other non agricultural activities like fishing, which may be strongly seasonal. It *is* possible to have something vaguely equivalent to the "winter" lean times of northern temperate zones, but in a tropical agricultural cycle.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1127993The 215 work days were working their Lord's land, not their own fields.
215 days of feudal obligation in a year sounds very unlikely to me. The 9th century Polyptique of St-Bertin references feudatories called
lunarii ("moon-men," or more to the point "month-men") who owed labour service. Its a bit unclear whether they owed 1 month of labour per year or one day of labour per month. I think the latter is more likely, but either way, 215 days a year seems way too onerous for feudal obligations in general.
Quote from: SHARK;1128044Greetings!
When I was in college, I was intrigued by seeing numerous documentaries about tribal peoples in my Anthropology classes. My professor had spent extensive time living amongst some primitive tribes in southern Africa.
While most of these tribes were affected to varying degrees by "Cargo Cult Culture"--they were quite primitive, and lived mostly by hunting and gathering, and light agriculture. My professor explained that in contrast to our own modern society, the tribal people only worked about 4-6 hours a day. The rest of the time they spent socializing, eating, playing and relaxing. These primitive tribal peoples possess much more leisure time every day than people in modern society. The tribal people are also considerably more content, happy, and stress-free in their day to day lives.
It was very interesting to learn.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It is, it's seriously interesting. Particularly in the late 1950s and early 1960s, people who had (frankly for a long time) noticed that many of our traditional preconceptions of so-called "primitive" societies did not conform to observed reality, began to try to quantify the differences. The results do and should make you question traditional notions of human evolution, but I'm not sure they have for many people.
When it comes to the tropics, I'm more familiar with northwest South America and Amazonia, not so much with Africa, but even so, old as much of this research is, and old as my personal experience is, it's been quite eye-opening.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1128018Re: life spans. I know you guys know this, because I'm not the only one that has said it here, but medieval life spans aren't terribly different than ours. The difference in average life expectancy is mostly the difference in infant mortality and young women dying in child birth.
Infant mortality was the biggest driver. Poor sanitation and drinking water and the absence of antibiotics and vaccines were the other big drivers.
The idea that medieval peasants had enormous amounts of free time is absolutely idiotic. There was a constant effort required for survival.
As for open air markets, I know a thing or two about them firsthand...
(https://heneedsfood.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Feria-de-Trist%C3%A1n-Narvaja-01.jpg)
Oh, and as to how meat was kept, the animals were slaughtered at the market itself. That's one of the definitions of a "wet market" like they have in Wuhan.
In Uruguay they don't do this, but it is done in places other than Asia. All over the middle-east, africa, and some parts of latin america.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1128571Oh, and as to how meat was kept, the animals were slaughtered at the market itself. That's one of the definitions of a "wet market" like they have in Wuhan.
In Uruguay they don't do this, but it is done in places other than Asia. All over the middle-east, africa, and some parts of latin america.
And note that even in the US you can buy live lobster at the grocery store...
Greetings!
Pundit, how is the food down there in open markets in Uruguay? I know here in the States I have been to several kinds of open air markets--mostly Mexican and Greek. Oh, damn, the food is delicious! Freshly made tacos, sizzling meat off the grill, crunchy fresh veggies and condiments--hand made tortillas! Just excellent! The Greeks, yeah, freshly grilled kabobs, seasoned rice, soft Pita bread, all them fresh tomatoes, diced onions and pepperoncini's. Fresh lemon. So fantastic, Pundit!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: ffilz;1128575And note that even in the US you can buy live lobster at the grocery store...
Yes, well, the freshness of seafood is an issue that required keeping that particular remainder of the old methods.
Quote from: SHARK;1128576Greetings!
Pundit, how is the food down there in open markets in Uruguay? I know here in the States I have been to several kinds of open air markets--mostly Mexican and Greek. Oh, damn, the food is delicious! Freshly made tacos, sizzling meat off the grill, crunchy fresh veggies and condiments--hand made tortillas! Just excellent! The Greeks, yeah, freshly grilled kabobs, seasoned rice, soft Pita bread, all them fresh tomatoes, diced onions and pepperoncini's. Fresh lemon. So fantastic, Pundit!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Street food here is very tasty. For a long time though, it was fairly monotonous: Uruguayan food. But in the last several years there's been a culinary growth here, so in the big market in Tristan Narvaja you can get Mexican, Venezuelan, Asian food, brochettes, and other stuff.
The real value of the open air markets is that they're basically all farmers' markets, and the fresh vegetables/fruits, meats, and cheeses are really top condition.
Salt, smoke it, condiment it, pickle it. very ancient practices.
If you're willing/able to fit it using something to hold the vinegar while placing thin slices of meat on top of said thing also works for a while. The vinegar evaporates easy so it lowers the temperature enough that the meat doesn't go bad, it's how the Japanese ended inventing the sushi, at first the rice at the bottom of the container was just so the vinegar kept the fish from going bad, some hungry dude must have eaten the rice and it tasted good, the rest is history, Japanese cuisine history.
Quote from: jeff37923;1127426Take a massive chunk of ice from a mountain top, place it in a container, place insulator around it (straw, wool, etc.), and haul it to where the open air market is and place it in an ice house. IIRC, ice houses were found in 1780BC, so they have been around for quite some time.
There is even a Wikipedia entry on them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_house_(building)).
EDIT:
Actually, a Yakhchal might be better suited for your border town. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakhch%C4%81l)
Well color me surprised, I knew about Ice Houses but I didn't knew about the Yakhchal, this will find it's way into my games for sure! Thanks!
Quote from: RPGPundit;1129249Street food here is very tasty. For a long time though, it was fairly monotonous: Uruguayan food. But in the last several years there's been a culinary growth here, so in the big market in Tristan Narvaja you can get Mexican, Venezuelan, Asian food, brochettes, and other stuff.
The real value of the open air markets is that they're basically all farmers' markets, and the fresh vegetables/fruits, meats, and cheeses are really top condition.
Greetings!
Very cool, Pundit! That sounds delicious! Fresh meats and veggies, yep. The farmer's markets offer such varieties of stuff, all kinds of different things. Everything is wonderful. It's good to hear that you are getting more variety in your farmer's markets, too!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1129254Well color me surprised, I knew about Ice Houses but I didn't knew about the Yakhchal, this will find it's way into my games for sure! Thanks!
Greetings!
The Yakhchal is so awesome!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1127403A popular location in the town is the local bazaar, which features over 100 small shops, as well as open-air markets, farmer's markets, butcher shops and open-air meat grills, where kabobs are cooked, as well as a variety of chickens, lambs, goat meat and fish, in addition to beef. Giant Toads, Giant Snake, and Giant Weasel meat is also available.
So, I have curious, inquisitive players that will surely ask me numerous esoteric questions.:D
Sounds like an interesting place.
Quote from: SHARK;1127403How is all of this meat kept safe to eat? Huge amounts of meat are cooked fresh, day in and day out, starting fairly early in the morning, and ongoing until later in the evening, often around 10 or Midnight.
What is the climate like? Is it hot and dry, cold and damp, cold and dry or whatever?
I have been to similar bazaars in southern Russia and they are usually open to the elements and open into the evening. In the winter it is cold, so things stay fresh. In the summer they just wave flies away. To be honest, there isn't much done to keep meat fresh. Most meat is sold on the same day, so no need to take it him and bring it back again.
Quote from: SHARK;1127403I know in ancient and medieval times, there were similar bazaars and open-air meat grills and such. How did medieval people keep all this meat going fresh and safe to eat? I'm assuming they must have had some technique or process, because people continued to patronize such bazaars and meat vendors in similar places, for centuries. Mass illnesses didn't seem to break out under such conditions, which I find a bit surprising. Evidently different drinks were offered, from goat milk and alcohol, to tea as well. There were also fresh fruits and vegetables. How does all this stuff stay fresh for people to eat and drink every day?
A lot of people used salt to preserve meat and then sold it in bazaars, or they smoked or dried them first.
Quote from: SHARK;1127403Any thoughts? Maybe I'm forgetting something from long ago studies, or just overlooking some aspect.
I think that people are probably far more paranoid about keeping things fresh because they know about bacteria and so on. In the past, people didn't know about that, so didn't care as much.
Quote from: soltakss;1129326I think that people are probably far more paranoid about keeping things fresh because they know about bacteria and so on. In the past, people didn't know about that, so didn't care as much.
I think that's a big one. Plus, I know from personal experience folks can have different tolerances to "off" food. My wife goes running for the toilet after eating things that seemed perfectly fine to me, or at worst made me a bit gassier than normal. Likely folks who aren't eating as unspoiled food as we are used to in the USA these days probably have a higher tolerance. Of course with less ability to keep food unspoiled, there's more chances of a bug growing faster than people's systems are used to and off they go to the loo in a hurry... or worse...