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Fan Forums => The RPGPundit's Own Forum => Topic started by: Manifestopheles on October 10, 2020, 04:00:07 pm

Title: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Manifestopheles on October 10, 2020, 04:00:07 pm
So Larian decided to make fun of its fanbase by recreating the average character based on their player statistics the most popular choices in Baldur's Gate III. This turned out to be a "white human male," which they compare to the average Vault Dweller.

Obviously, Kotaku and other "gaming" outlets immediately jumped the bandwagon deciding to make this a political issue of some kind. See below:

https://kotaku.com/baldur-s-gate-3-players-called-out-for-their-basic-ass-1845329172

Meanwhile it seems nobody noticed that the favourite class seems to be a Cleric, which I honestly wouldn't have expected (you'd think the Fighter would be the most popular choice).

Honestly I think Larian themselves just made this post to poke some harmless fun. I get no overt political vibes from them in general and as a developer I hold them in fairly high esteem.

Unfortunately, however, this seems to have backfired pretty bad, making me think twice about whether I want to play the game at all.

Any thoughts?

[EDIT: I apologize in advance if this post doesn't belong here. Feel free to move it or delete it if necessary.]
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Thornhammer on October 10, 2020, 05:02:11 pm
Please, PLEASE tell me most of them are white, male, human lawful good clerics of Lolth...

I don’t know whose head would pop first, but I wanna see.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Manifestopheles on October 10, 2020, 05:28:52 pm
Please, PLEASE tell me most of them are white, male, human lawful good clerics of Lolth...

I don’t know whose head would pop first, but I wanna see.

They're Clerics of Selûne, according to the screenshots Larian posted. Not sure if they're Lawful Good, but probably on the LG/NG/TN spectrum.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on October 10, 2020, 06:29:02 pm
The article is asinine, the author must view everything through ism prisms.

If you are a hero, why would you give your hero a disability?
Ex. "Games in modern settings need accessory options to include hearing and mobility aids"
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Manifestopheles on October 10, 2020, 06:33:20 pm
The article is asinine, the author must view everything through ism prisms.

If you are a hero, why would you give your hero a disability?
Ex. "Games in modern settings need accessory options to include hearing and mobility aids"

Not only that, the protagonists in BG3 have all been infected by a Mind Flayer parasite, allowing them to casually read each other's minds. Speech is not even strictly a necessity  :o
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on October 10, 2020, 06:38:01 pm
Those of you who choose to play early access mode, let us know how woke they are.

I loved BG 1 and 2 but that was a long time ago. The lunatics are now mostly running the asylum.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Manifestopheles on October 10, 2020, 06:48:58 pm
Those of you who choose to play early access mode, let us know how woke they are.

I loved BG 1 and 2 but that was a long time ago. The lunatics are now mostly running the asylum.

I'm not playing early access but I've been following the game closely, watching streams and the like. The game honestly doesn't look all that woke at all. As I've said, Larian overall is an exceptional game studio, and the game seems to follow suit in its predecessors' (Divinity: Original Sin 1&2) good reputation. The only caveat for me is that, just like their previous games, it's more of a tactical RPG affair (in the vein of XCOM and similar games), with some more or less hardcore RPG and simulation elements strewn in for good measure.

The comments made by Larian themselves seem to have been mostly made in jest, expressing a somewhat understandable puzzlement at players' one-sidedness when it comes to character creation. Unfortunately this seems to have been taken the wrong way by a lot of leftist journalists, who perceive this as an argument to prove their point.

Be that as it may, I think Larian overall are smart enough to stay away from any political misgivings, both in their games as well as in the public sphere.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Hawkwing7423 on October 10, 2020, 07:12:59 pm
Hmm, I got a little bored in Divinity: OS with all the tactics. I think I enjoy most progressing my characters' abilities, levels, gear, and enjoying a good story. No doubt they will have easier modes for lazy players like me.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Manifestopheles on October 10, 2020, 07:26:32 pm
Hmm, I got a little bored in Divinity: OS with all the tactics. I think I enjoy most progressing my characters' abilities, levels, gear, and enjoying a good story. No doubt they will have easier modes for lazy players like me.

Honestly, I have the same problem. DOS1 for me was the best in that regard since the tactical aspect was more straightforward (no double AC rates and the like, making elemental attacks much more lethal). Obviously though, I think the multiplayer co-op is the saving grace for all three of the games and that's in a lot of ways how they're meant to be played.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Trond on October 11, 2020, 11:08:45 am
Quote
It also means making sure that a game’s world is as diverse as the characters being made for it. We need to see all different kinds of people—short, tall, fat, brown, hard of hearing, blind—in order to create the rich worlds boasted about on the back of game boxes (yes, games hardly come in boxes anymore, but work with me here).

Can't wait to choose a blind character to play. I'll be soo exited to stare at that blank screen with no graphics.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Manifestopheles on October 11, 2020, 12:49:56 pm
https://www.pcgamer.com/baldurs-gate-3s-most-picked-character-editor-options-created-the-most-generic-dude-possible/?utm_content=buffer6cd5c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=buffer_pcgamerfb&fbclid=IwAR0EtFvMwqsnWibfInPsB6xaECzvbCzLekTMG_nzJ61zdXcfoft_uLFfBnQ

PC Gamer's article is a bit more sober on the issue, as usual.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 11, 2020, 03:18:18 pm
The article is asinine, the author must view everything through ism prisms.

I will probably steal this at some point. :)
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: SHARK on October 11, 2020, 06:01:02 pm
Greetings!

You know, in reading through the article, the clown also discussed how great it would be to have options and accessories for characters that are blind, deaf or disabled. Whatever. It struck me though that Pundit has talked about the whole diabled fetish thing in gaming, and we had at least two threads in the main forum about the growing trend. Then we have it referenced here in this article by some clown complaining about not being supported in these options....it makes me really boggle.

WTF is wrong with these people? I can understand the distinctions between portraying a hero--and being a superhero, ala Superman. I much prefer a "normal" hero, or perhaps a more mythic hero character somewhere *between* normal hero and crazy uber superhero. If you all get what I'm saying.

But the whole, I want to play a disabled character, and the DM, the game world, and everyone else has to kiss my ass and treat me special? WTF is wrong with these people?

Maybe I am showing my grognard, ancient dinosaur roots. *laughing* I just really do not even understand these "gamers" whole motivation for *wanting* fucked up, crippled, weird, socially-ostracized, rebel freak characters. LGBQ, gender-fuck me I'm Fluid, drug-addicted, abused, tattoos everywhere, more piercings than a fucking metalshop, screaming freaks. Why are these people so fucking dysfunctional? They are angry, bitter, full of hatred for everything and everyone around them, while at the same time being utterly soft, emotionally weak, spoiled, entitled and total emotional trainwrecks that are full of self-righteous and smug entitlement.

I remember when we all used to think the "Goths" were dysfunctional and weird. Before that, it was your garden-variety metalheads, stoners, and punks that were a bit rough, stupid, and rebellious, but damn, these new crops of people today have really dialed up the fucking crazy meter to 11, you know? I see this whole ideology and syndrome reaching into *everything* today in a huge way, obviously politics and shit, social fucking media, but also into music, books, film, and even the attitudes and styles and such of gamers in our hobby.

I need to get me some more coffee. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: HappyDaze on October 11, 2020, 07:43:19 pm
I just really do not even understand these "gamers" whole motivation for *wanting* fucked up, crippled, weird, socially-ostracized, rebel freak characters. LGBQ, gender-fuck me I'm Fluid, drug-addicted, abused, tattoos everywhere, more piercings than a fucking metalshop, screaming freaks.
In some games, you play such characters for the points you get from taking such disadvantages.
(http://www.monkeyinthecage.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/point-buy-systems.jpg)
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: KingCheops on October 12, 2020, 12:00:48 pm
The comments made by Larian themselves seem to have been mostly made in jest, expressing a somewhat understandable puzzlement at players' one-sidedness when it comes to character creation.

Pretty sure the original comment was more like "We spent all this time and effort giving you guys some crazy funky ways to customize your avatar's appearence and most of you aren't using it!"  So typical developer complaints when their work ends up being unused.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Manifestopheles on October 12, 2020, 03:32:12 pm
The comments made by Larian themselves seem to have been mostly made in jest, expressing a somewhat understandable puzzlement at players' one-sidedness when it comes to character creation.

Pretty sure the original comment was more like "We spent all this time and effort giving you guys some crazy funky ways to customize your avatar's appearence and most of you aren't using it!"  So typical developer complaints when their work ends up being unused.

That was, indeed, the original comment. Again, I firmly believe they were just trying to poke some harmless fun. It's not like their game isn't already selling like hotcakes and will be inevitably at least as successful as DOS2 (if not rival BG1&2 themselves). The options they worked so hard to get in the game are there for players to peruse at their leasure, and they're obviously planning on adding tons more content once the full game comes out. And even if it's not the majority, I'm sure plenty of people out there are playing Drow and Tiefling snowflakes.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: LiferGamer on October 12, 2020, 04:07:30 pm
Bought it in early access, haven't progressed too far.  They're a modern company, but I don't think they're heavy handed with wokeness...

Character designs: if you choose human the default is a black guy, but there's a fair amount of skin tones and features; Gold dwarves and strongheart halflings are latino or something, I dunno the Realms.  The armor is typical fantasy nonsense - strange as hell, mostly fantasy crap with 16th century fashion blended with occasional dark age throwbacks.

You get to design your 'ideal love' right after character creation, and they're dressed in a fantasy greek-ish wrap around outfit with nipples poking up (ladies) or showing (men).  Boobs are a little small.  Need me my big-titty dwarves.  Give me a slider!

Overall the characters are beautiful - hair and faces are improved from the DOS:2 editor - my campaign has already benefited - I was lacking an NPC portrait that had the right combo of smug and soy:

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/702406055648296970/763217427743768636/bROGAN.jpg?width=484&height=519)

(Brogan Greycastle - He's the evil gay half-elf bastard that ursurped the Red Wyrmspeaker title, and corrupting his lover the Prince of the kingdom; although he's probably Kevin Spacey gay...)


It's VERY early access; because this is Larian, that means its playable and fun, BUT there are only about six classes and some races are missing.

The problem is, it's cleaving tightly to the 5e rules, and that makes it pretty dull at low level when you're playing multiplayer - you just don't have as much to do on your turn as in DOS:2, add to that the fact that we're missing classes and races we want and its meh.

Also, Larian seems to be in a rut: [spoiler]So you're a prisoner on a ship, there are giant tentacles and it crashes leaving you on a beach.  Later, you have voices in your head.  We had great fun joking about Fort Joy being around the corner.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Manifestopheles on October 12, 2020, 05:18:33 pm
Also, Larian seems to be in a rut: [spoiler]So you're a prisoner on a ship, there are giant tentacles and it crashes leaving you on a beach.  Later, you have voices in your head.  We had great fun joking about Fort Joy being around the corner.[/spoiler]

Honestly, I never thought Larian were amazing writers. Both DOS games are fairly run-of-the-mill high fantasy romps, and their predecessors, mostly of the action RPG variety weren't much better in that regard. Gameplay and co-op fun seems to be where their strengths lie, and they play their hand well. Obviously this game is perhaps hampered by the fact that it's a 5E product, but at least they're not pulling any punches, which, as always with their games, is as refreshing as ever.

Also, yeah, the character models are gorgeous, if buggy. I have good faith they will fix everything in due time, but I'll still hold off buying the game until then.

Maybe I should revisit some of the Divinity games to hold me over until then.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: LiferGamer on October 12, 2020, 07:29:22 pm
That's what we ended up doing.  Dos2
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: CRKrueger on October 13, 2020, 03:53:29 pm
So...the devs give gamers a million character options so people could play a character “just like me”.
Players then do exactly this, the majority US gamer being a white male.
Devs then call players boring and unimaginative.

 :o
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: RPGPundit on October 13, 2020, 06:50:19 pm
Normally any thread about video games would be instantly closed here. But it actually IS of interest to me to know that the majority of gamers want to play humans, and that this really pisses off the Tumblr/Twitter freak crowd who hate their own humanity and everyone else's.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Jaeger on November 04, 2020, 06:10:38 pm
...
You know, in reading through the article, the clown also discussed how great it would be to have options and accessories for characters that are blind, deaf or disabled. Whatever. It struck me though that Pundit has talked about the whole diabled fetish thing in gaming, and we had at least two threads in the main forum about the growing trend. Then we have it referenced here in this article by some clown complaining about not being supported in these options....it makes me really boggle.

WTF is wrong with these people? ...

It is pure misery tourism for these people.

A competition for how much of a victimized minority they can be.

They are miserable people, and they want to spread their misery as much as they can.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: SHARK on November 04, 2020, 07:09:30 pm
...
You know, in reading through the article, the clown also discussed how great it would be to have options and accessories for characters that are blind, deaf or disabled. Whatever. It struck me though that Pundit has talked about the whole diabled fetish thing in gaming, and we had at least two threads in the main forum about the growing trend. Then we have it referenced here in this article by some clown complaining about not being supported in these options....it makes me really boggle.

WTF is wrong with these people? ...

It is pure misery tourism for these people.

A competition for how much of a victimized minority they can be.

They are miserable people, and they want to spread their misery as much as they can.

Greetings!

Yeah, my friend, I think you are quite right. Sometimes, I feel so socially out of it with all of these social trends in gaming, because all of my players are and have always been reasonable, mature, well-adjusted people. There haven't been any criminals, rebels, or painted, pierced, druggy freaks that seem to hate everything in society.

I have players that like to play characters like Conan, Sir Lancelot, Roman legionnaires, or Pagan warriors or druids. No one with weird sexual identities, deep emotional traumas, crazy fucking politics, or fetishes for disabled people. It's honestly disturbing looking at the world view so many of these modern gamers seem to want to bring to the game table. Gaming for them has little connection to history, real-world mythology, legendary drama--none of the things that have captivated us for countless generations.

No. They want their gaming to be all about present-day politics, and being some gender-fluid freak exploring fucking everything they can get their hands on. Huge fucking difference there in social focus and entire identity. So many of these modern gamers are so deeply emotionally broken trainwrecks, everything in their life, including gaming, revolve around and must revolve around their political and racialized identity, and their sexual traumas.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: HappyDaze on November 04, 2020, 09:56:32 pm
or druids. No one with weird sexual identities
...
and being some gender-fluid freak exploring fucking everything they can get their hands on. Huge fucking difference there in social focus and entire identity. So many of these modern gamers are so deeply emotionally broken trainwrecks, everything in their life, including gaming, revolve around and must revolve around their political and racialized identity, and their sexual traumas.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Ever have the asshole that wanted to play a druid so they could do weird furry shit with wild shape? I've had to kick that guy out of a game before.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: moonsweeper on November 05, 2020, 01:26:16 am

Ever have the asshole that wanted to play a druid so they could do weird furry shit with wild shape? I've had to kick that guy out of a game before.

I always thought that kind of stuff was an urban legend...I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: HappyDaze on November 05, 2020, 09:15:29 am

Ever have the asshole that wanted to play a druid so they could do weird furry shit with wild shape? I've had to kick that guy out of a game before.

I always thought that kind of stuff was an urban legend...I stand corrected.
I've also had one asshole that took a tool proficiency in cook's utensils and was out to cook/serve/eat everything in the MM--yes, including the humanoids. Not the same player as the druid I mentioned, but the two did game together frequently, and apparently this is the kind of fun they tend to find in games. Neither of them are welcome in any game I run these days, and I won't play alongside them either.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Ghostmaker on November 05, 2020, 09:26:12 am
Purple worm jerky is an acquired taste, after all.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Snark Knight on November 05, 2020, 12:36:56 pm
I remember when there was that big push in Mass Effect 3 to put FemShep front and centre and if you looked about the fandom between now and then you'd believe she was the most popular option, but at some point post-launch they released the statistics and something hilarious like 90% of people played Male Soldier Shepard.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Shasarak on November 05, 2020, 02:35:38 pm

Ever have the asshole that wanted to play a druid so they could do weird furry shit with wild shape? I've had to kick that guy out of a game before.

I always thought that kind of stuff was an urban legend...I stand corrected.
I've also had one asshole that took a tool proficiency in cook's utensils and was out to cook/serve/eat everything in the MM--yes, including the humanoids. Not the same player as the druid I mentioned, but the two did game together frequently, and apparently this is the kind of fun they tend to find in games. Neither of them are welcome in any game I run these days, and I won't play alongside them either.

I got that guy in my game right now!

Always thought it was just an American thing.   ;)
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: HappyDaze on November 05, 2020, 06:00:48 pm
I remember when there was that big push in Mass Effect 3 to put FemShep front and centre and if you looked about the fandom between now and then you'd believe she was the most popular option, but at some point post-launch they released the statistics and something hilarious like 90% of people played Male Soldier Shepard.
I just remember how fucking disappointed I was with Mass Effect 3. Incidentally, I did play Male Soldier Shepard.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Kyle Aaron on November 05, 2020, 06:22:21 pm
Quote from: the woke writer
Even when presented with a wealth of options and opportunities, people will still default to making what’s comfortable and familiar: themselves.
No, because then the default guy would be overweight. Two-thirds of the Western world is overweight or obese, and gamers like snacks. They're making an idealised version of themselves. "Me if I were good-looking and competent." Cos, you know, it's fantasy roleplaying.

I just really do not even understand these "gamers" whole motivation for *wanting* fucked up, crippled, weird, socially-ostracized, rebel freak characters.
Because you get extra character build points when you take disadvantages. It's all GURPS' fault, they started it. If you were a one-eyed epilectic dwarf with a stutter you could be a master swordsman on day one of your adventuring.

My old man works with people with acquired brain injuries. I said, "Is it like Rainman? You know, idiot savants?"
"No, most of them are just idiots."

Game designers have this perverse idea that games should be balanced, which carried to its absurd extreme means everyone is built on the same total points - overall, everyone is as good as everyone else. Point-buy is roleplaying game socialism, and it doesn't represent reality or fantasy fiction in any way at all.

This is why random roll character generation is superior - there's less opportunity for the player to indulge their desire to be a unique special snowflake and, god help us, write a backstory.

The idea that disabilities give you extra other abilities accounts for people wanting to be disabled. Point-buy character generation is the cause of modern Wokeness. Save the world from the Woke, stick to random roll character generation.

PS: I would say that random roll actually offers more opportunities for developing empathy for people with difficulties. Because maybe all your rolls are shit. But with wits and luck, you make the best of it anyway. Meanwhile some guy with great stats dies in the first combat. Your poor rolls mean you have to work harder for the same results than the guy with good rolls - but you might get there anyway!

But I guess, "Make the best of things, whatever your difficulties, in the end success or failure is largely up to you," is not really a Woke message.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Shasarak on November 05, 2020, 10:22:47 pm
I agree that random rolled characters are better even if you have to keep rolling the whole night to get there.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Kyle Aaron on November 05, 2020, 11:56:04 pm
No, you play whoever you roll up.

If they die, then you can roll another one. But you play them until then.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: shuddemell on November 06, 2020, 10:47:51 am
Quote from: the woke writer
Even when presented with a wealth of options and opportunities, people will still default to making what%u2019s comfortable and familiar: themselves.
No, because then the default guy would be overweight. Two-thirds of the Western world is overweight or obese, and gamers like snacks. They're making an idealised version of themselves. "Me if I were good-looking and competent." Cos, you know, it's fantasy roleplaying.

I just really do not even understand these "gamers" whole motivation for *wanting* fucked up, crippled, weird, socially-ostracized, rebel freak characters.
Because you get extra character build points when you take disadvantages. It's all GURPS' fault, they started it. If you were a one-eyed epilectic dwarf with a stutter you could be a master swordsman on day one of your adventuring.

My old man works with people with acquired brain injuries. I said, "Is it like Rainman? You know, idiot savants?"
"No, most of them are just idiots."

Game designers have this perverse idea that games should be balanced, which carried to its absurd extreme means everyone is built on the same total points - overall, everyone is as good as everyone else. Point-buy is roleplaying game socialism, and it doesn't represent reality or fantasy fiction in any way at all.

This is why random roll character generation is superior - there's less opportunity for the player to indulge their desire to be a unique special snowflake and, god help us, write a backstory.

The idea that disabilities give you extra other abilities accounts for people wanting to be disabled. Point-buy character generation is the cause of modern Wokeness. Save the world from the Woke, stick to random roll character generation.

PS: I would say that random roll actually offers more opportunities for developing empathy for people with difficulties. Because maybe all your rolls are shit. But with wits and luck, you make the best of it anyway. Meanwhile some guy with great stats dies in the first combat. Your poor rolls mean you have to work harder for the same results than the guy with good rolls - but you might get there anyway!

But I guess, "Make the best of things, whatever your difficulties, in the end success or failure is largely up to you," is not really a Woke message.

Point of order, no it isn't GURPS fault, Champions beat them by 6 years with that paradigm of points of disabilities.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: jhkim on November 06, 2020, 11:57:20 am
Because you get extra character build points when you take disadvantages. It's all GURPS' fault, they started it. If you were a one-eyed epilectic dwarf with a stutter you could be a master swordsman on day one of your adventuring.

My old man works with people with acquired brain injuries. I said, "Is it like Rainman? You know, idiot savants?"
"No, most of them are just idiots."

Game designers have this perverse idea that games should be balanced, which carried to its absurd extreme means everyone is built on the same total points - overall, everyone is as good as everyone else. Point-buy is roleplaying game socialism, and it doesn't represent reality or fantasy fiction in any way at all.

This is why random roll character generation is superior - there's less opportunity for the player to indulge their desire to be a unique special snowflake and, god help us, write a backstory.

The idea that disabilities give you extra other abilities accounts for people wanting to be disabled. Point-buy character generation is the cause of modern Wokeness. Save the world from the Woke, stick to random roll character generation.
Point of order, no it isn't GURPS fault, Champions beat them by 6 years with that paradigm of points of disabilities.
Yeah, Champions had points for disabilities in 1981, while GURPS didn't come out until 1987.

I disagree with the premise of Kyle's argument, though -- which is a variation of "If you want to kill orcs, then you support real-life genocide of real-life people." The alternative is that games are not indicative of real-life beliefs and behaviors - so killing people in a game doesn't indicate that you're a psychopath, and wanting game balance doesn't indicate that you're a socialist. Game balance is a concept that long predates role-playing games at all. It's from war games, board games, and card games.

I think the desire to play characters with notable weaknesses and/or disabilities comes from the genre - not from game mechanics. Superhero characters like Daredevil and Professor X had unique disabilities that were a part of them, as opposed to classic fantasy characters like Conan or Aragorn.

I've played lots of point-buy character creation and lots of random-roll character creation. I think they're both fun, and I don't think either has any effect on real-life politics.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Shasarak on November 06, 2020, 02:12:52 pm
No, you play whoever you roll up.

Yes, I said that.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: Pat on November 06, 2020, 05:56:33 pm
Yeah, Champions had points for disabilities in 1981, while GURPS didn't come out until 1987.
1986, not 1987.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: jhkim on November 06, 2020, 10:52:35 pm
Yeah, Champions had points for disabilities in 1981, while GURPS didn't come out until 1987.
1986, not 1987.
Whoops. You're correct. I was close, at least. I'd note that the James Bond 007 RPG also adapted the points-for-weaknesses in 1983, prior to GURPS.
Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: anglebrill on November 22, 2020, 09:12:46 am
But coming from DOS2 with a lot of skills, multiple actions per turn and lots of flashy explosion I kind of find myself bored with this combat. It's just move, normal attack once (most likely miss) and rinse repeat. There will probably be more active skills to use later on but damn..







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Title: Re: Larian complains about boring players
Post by: shuddemell on November 22, 2020, 09:19:58 am
Because you get extra character build points when you take disadvantages. It's all GURPS' fault, they started it. If you were a one-eyed epilectic dwarf with a stutter you could be a master swordsman on day one of your adventuring.

My old man works with people with acquired brain injuries. I said, "Is it like Rainman? You know, idiot savants?"
"No, most of them are just idiots."

Game designers have this perverse idea that games should be balanced, which carried to its absurd extreme means everyone is built on the same total points - overall, everyone is as good as everyone else. Point-buy is roleplaying game socialism, and it doesn't represent reality or fantasy fiction in any way at all.

This is why random roll character generation is superior - there's less opportunity for the player to indulge their desire to be a unique special snowflake and, god help us, write a backstory.

The idea that disabilities give you extra other abilities accounts for people wanting to be disabled. Point-buy character generation is the cause of modern Wokeness. Save the world from the Woke, stick to random roll character generation.
Point of order, no it isn't GURPS fault, Champions beat them by 6 years with that paradigm of points of disabilities.
Yeah, Champions had points for disabilities in 1981, while GURPS didn't come out until 1987.

I disagree with the premise of Kyle's argument, though -- which is a variation of "If you want to kill orcs, then you support real-life genocide of real-life people." The alternative is that games are not indicative of real-life beliefs and behaviors - so killing people in a game doesn't indicate that you're a psychopath, and wanting game balance doesn't indicate that you're a socialist. Game balance is a concept that long predates role-playing games at all. It's from war games, board games, and card games.

I think the desire to play characters with notable weaknesses and/or disabilities comes from the genre - not from game mechanics. Superhero characters like Daredevil and Professor X had unique disabilities that were a part of them, as opposed to classic fantasy characters like Conan or Aragorn.

I've played lots of point-buy character creation and lots of random-roll character creation. I think they're both fun, and I don't think either has any effect on real-life politics.

Agreed, I think the premise is faulty. RPG's can be a way to explore ideas that you don't agree with, or are opposed to in a relatively safe environment. You are NOT your character, but your character is a way to explore aspects of life that are otherwise closed to you. Disabilities are often a way to explain your character's origin (Daredevil being one such example) or their motivation within the context of the game. It is strange that some people seem to fetishize it...