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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: Jaeger on October 14, 2021, 04:54:56 PM

Title: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Jaeger on October 14, 2021, 04:54:56 PM
BAIZUO Workers of the World, UNITE!
https://unitedpaizoworkers.org/

Jessica Price's Twitter feed... The gift that keeps on giving:


Redmond, WA (October 14th, 2021) — Today, the workers at Paizo, Inc – publisher of the Pathfinder and Starfinder roleplaying games – are announcing their formation of the United Paizo Workers union (UPW), with the Communication Workers of America’s CODE-CWA project. This union is the first of its kind in the tabletop roleplaying games industry.

“Unions have helped build a stronger working class in America and I’m proud to stand with United Paizo Workers. I believe that when we all work together, we’re better for it. Unionization allows workers to have a seat at the table and ensures that our voices and concerns are being heard and addressed so that all of Paizo can move forward for a positive future.”

Shay Snow, Editor
“I love my job. I love my coworkers, and I love the company I work for. I get to sell a game that I love to a community that I love. I come from a pro-union family, and I believe that unionizing Paizo will be the best way to protect the people, company, and community that I love, for now and going forward into the future.”

Cosmo Eisele, Sales Manager
“My coworkers are amazing and so are the games we make together. I want Paizo to keep publishing Pathfinder and Starfinder content for years to come. This is my way of helping management improve our company culture, and by extension, the content we produce.”

Jenny Jarzabski, Starfinder Developer
“I proudly stand with my coworkers as we strive to help improve our workplace, and I believe the UPW will amplify our voices and assist with the changes we feel are necessary in making Paizo a more positive space for its employees.”

Logan Harper, Customer Service Representative
Paizo is one of the largest tabletop roleplaying publishers in the world, producing more than 10 hardcover books annually, along with numerous digital adventures and gaming accessories. Paizo also runs some of the most successful living campaigns in tabletop gaming history, with regular players in more than 36 countries. However, despite this success, Paizo’s workers are underpaid for their labor, required to live in one of the most expensive cities in the United States, and subjected to untenable crunch conditions on a regular basis.

Though efforts to organize by the Paizo workforce had already been underway for some time, the sudden departures of several long-standing employees in September and the subsequent allegations of managerial impropriety by former Paizo employees threw into stark relief the imbalance of the employer/employee relationship. These events, as well as internal conversations among Paizo workers, have uncovered a pattern of inconsistent hiring practices, pay inequity across the company, allegations of verbal abuse from executives and management, and allegations of harassment ignored or covered up by those at the top. These findings have further galvanized the need for clearer policies and stronger employee protections to ensure that Paizo staff can feel secure in their employment.

Changes have been promised, internally and externally, by the executive team. However, the only way to ensure that all workers’ voices are heard is collective action. It is in this spirit that the workers of Paizo have united to push for real changes at the company. The UPW is committed to advocating on behalf of all staffers, and invites all eligible Paizo employees to join in the push for better, more sustainable working conditions. The union requests the broad support of the tabletop community in urging Paizo management to voluntarily recognize the United Paizo Workers, and to negotiate in good faith with the union so that they may build a better workplace together.

For more information, please contact the Organizing Committee at committee@unitedpaizoworkers.org

Raychael Allor, Customer Service Representative
Brian Bauman, Software Architect
Logan Bonner, Pathfinder Lead Designer
Robert Brandenburg, Software Developer
James Case, Pathfinder Game Designer
John Compton, Starfinder Senior Developer
Katina Davis, Webstore Coordinator
David “Cosmo” Eisele, Sales Manager
Eleanor Ferron, Pathfinder Developer
Keith Greer, Customer Service Representative
Logan Harper, Customer Service Representative
Sasha “Mika” Hawkins, Sales and E-Commerce Assistant
Jenny Jarzabski, Starfinder Developer
Erik Keith, Software Test Engineer
Mike Kimmel, Organized Play Developer
Avi Kool, Senior Editor
Maryssa Lagervall, Web Content Manager
Luis Loza, Pathfinder Developer
Joe Pasini, Starfinder Lead Designer
Austin Phillips, Customer Service Representative
Lee Rucker, Project Coordinator
Michael Sayre, Pathfinder Designer
Shay Snow, Editor
Alex Speidel, Organized Play Coordinator
Levi Steadman, Software Test Engineer
Gary Teter, Senior Software Developer
Josh Thornton, Systems Administrator II
Jake Tondro, Senior Developer
Andrew White, Front End Engineering Lead
In Solidarity,
Thurston Hillman, Digital Adventures Developer

So About 30 people already - close to half their workforce?

Lisa Stevens is functionally retiring, so she may not see this as her problem...

FWIW - Unions are not inherently bad for companies. But neither are they inherently good for companies, or the long term interests of their members/employee's.

It really depends how they are run. Especially in how the union will protect the interests of good employee's vs. its willingness to work with employers to cut bad hires loose.

The union contract that would come out of this would be a big tell for how this will go...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/12/17/how-the-unions-destroy-their-own-as-viewed-by-a-life-long-union-supporter/?sh=19e78c8643f8

No one knows the Baizuo internal financials. But they do employ more people than WotC's D&D division, and they do not do 5e sales levels.

If Baizuo goes union, the next few years will be very interesting.


Also; Not sayin' they're similar, but...

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/244477416_1054144752021520_7117361610008376590_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=v8CRtT0Gmb0AX8qklJ3&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=157b179a46f25e3620f9bf9f5d9ac0f5&oe=618F5FD3)
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/245345833_1054143818688280_6434799686031535961_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=gcQ3KYettssAX_ssoTO&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=09055f2b312dec7e49082479b7aa8cd2&oe=618E6BB7)

Yup, it's Commies...
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 14, 2021, 05:05:33 PM
Pinkertons shooting coal miners is one thing, but I do wonder what horrible injustices the worker at paizo must undergo to feel the need for a union.  I guess being great at your job and getting paid well is less important than being protected by the collective?
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Shasarak on October 14, 2021, 05:20:35 PM
Everyone knows that Unions were invented by White people to better produce systemic racism.

So, good on the Paizo staff I guess.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: HappyDaze on October 14, 2021, 05:21:44 PM
That's the symbol they chose... ::)
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Jaeger on October 14, 2021, 05:21:54 PM
Pinkertons shooting coal miners is one thing, but I do wonder what horrible injustices the worker at paizo must undergo to feel the need for a union.  I guess being great at your job and getting paid well is less important than being protected by the collective?

In their defense, I believe Price is more or less correct on how the Gammas that run Baizuo actually treat and pay their employee's.

Of course given their culture/politics; If successful, they will promptly run Baizuo into the ground with their crazy union...
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: tenbones on October 14, 2021, 05:35:40 PM
So the shrieking dogs finally caught the car and have their jaws locked to the bumper.

Well... reality will set in, and of course by that time it will be too late.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 14, 2021, 06:30:49 PM
Nothing against unions as long as its smart realistic people asking for the proper compensation at the right time in the market.

Paizo in its uncertain finacnial straits and market position needs very smart people advocating for unions. Sadly their workforce is mostly idiots.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: SHARK on October 14, 2021, 07:03:05 PM
Greetings!

Baizuo is unionizing now?

*Laughing* What a bunch of idiots. Fucking cock-sucking Marxists, too. I hope they do run the company into the ground. Dig, dig, dig. Pay out huge, fat salaries to fat-ass morons that sit in their fucking cubicles doing much of nothing during a workday. Big, fat salaries to the giggling women employees that spend much of their time going to the fucking bathroom every 20 minutes, and having gossip circles at the water cooler.

So efficient! But, it will be even more of a progressive paradise as it gradually slithers further into the sewer.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Pat on October 14, 2021, 07:47:01 PM
We should start a bankruptcy pool.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 14, 2021, 07:51:25 PM
Pinkertons shooting coal miners is one thing, but I do wonder what horrible injustices the worker at paizo must undergo to feel the need for a union.  I guess being great at your job and getting paid well is less important than being protected by the collective?

In their defense, I believe Price is more or less correct on how the Gammas that run Baizuo actually treat and pay their employee's.

Of course given their culture/politics; If successful, they will promptly run Baizuo into the ground with their crazy union...

  Well....I think they had a whole song and movie about that whole situation.  "Take this job and shove it".  If you work for a bad boss and stay in a job that pays you poorly, that is on you IMO.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 14, 2021, 07:55:14 PM
  As Lincoln Hawk tells his son, "The world doesnt meet anyone half way."  Just before he went on to have the most epic armwrestling match of the century.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Pat on October 14, 2021, 07:58:28 PM
Pinkertons shooting coal miners is one thing, but I do wonder what horrible injustices the worker at paizo must undergo to feel the need for a union.  I guess being great at your job and getting paid well is less important than being protected by the collective?

In their defense, I believe Price is more or less correct on how the Gammas that run Baizuo actually treat and pay their employee's.

Of course given their culture/politics; If successful, they will promptly run Baizuo into the ground with their crazy union...

  Well....I think they had a whole song and movie about that whole situation.  "Take this job and shove it".  If you work for a bad boss and stay in a job that pays you poorly, that is on you IMO.
Particularly in October 2021, when employers are absolutely desperate for new employees.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Ratman_tf on October 14, 2021, 08:11:58 PM
Pinkertons shooting coal miners is one thing, but I do wonder what horrible injustices the worker at paizo must undergo to feel the need for a union.  I guess being great at your job and getting paid well is less important than being protected by the collective?

In their defense, I believe Price is more or less correct on how the Gammas that run Baizuo actually treat and pay their employee's.

Of course given their culture/politics; If successful, they will promptly run Baizuo into the ground with their crazy union...

  Well....I think they had a whole song and movie about that whole situation.  "Take this job and shove it".  If you work for a bad boss and stay in a job that pays you poorly, that is on you IMO.
Particularly in October 2021, when employers are absolutely desperate for new employees.

Fuck man. Tell all the companies I've submitted applications, that.

I'm about two weeks from getting a McJob out of desperation.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: HappyDaze on October 14, 2021, 08:16:15 PM
Pinkertons shooting coal miners is one thing, but I do wonder what horrible injustices the worker at paizo must undergo to feel the need for a union.  I guess being great at your job and getting paid well is less important than being protected by the collective?

In their defense, I believe Price is more or less correct on how the Gammas that run Baizuo actually treat and pay their employee's.

Of course given their culture/politics; If successful, they will promptly run Baizuo into the ground with their crazy union...

  Well....I think they had a whole song and movie about that whole situation.  "Take this job and shove it".  If you work for a bad boss and stay in a job that pays you poorly, that is on you IMO.
Particularly in October 2021, when employers are absolutely desperate for new employees.

Fuck man. Tell all the companies I've submitted applications, that.

I'm about two weeks from getting a McJob out of desperation.
What general location and field of work are you exploring?
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: DM_Curt on October 14, 2021, 08:21:12 PM
That logo is a Kobold.
Cowardly and cruel, devious trap-setters, usually in the service of a more powerful master.

Okay.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Zelen on October 14, 2021, 08:21:25 PM
Sincerely good luck to them. I am skeptical that this works out well for either Paizo or the employees.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Pat on October 14, 2021, 10:03:44 PM
Fuck man. Tell all the companies I've submitted applications, that.

I'm about two weeks from getting a McJob out of desperation.
It's a weird economy.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Marchand on October 15, 2021, 03:14:38 AM
We should start a bankruptcy pool.

Now, this is the kind of sour-faced, bitter, mean-spirited game that I love.

Hmm. I'll open the bidding on March 2023.

By then, any sales spurt they may have seen from PF2e will have well and truly evaporated;
They will have given it "one last Gencon" to see if whatever shit product they have released will turn things around; by then it will be clear it won't;
Financial conditions will be tightening (Fed hike);
They will be staring down the barrel of corporate income tax filing in April

(Couldn't interest you in a round of celebrity death bingo, could I?)

EDIT: I had flagged D&D5.5e as a factor hammering them but that won't be til 2024. Which is an argument against my date, but I'll stick with it.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Shawn Driscoll on October 15, 2021, 03:32:42 AM
Nothing good about unions.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Omega on October 15, 2021, 05:20:43 AM
My experience with unions was they took a chunk of my paycheck every time and did nothing when anyone was injured or needed help or were being overworked to death.

So whenever someone calls for a union I get really suspicious as it likely means someones going to pocket the money.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 15, 2021, 07:06:32 AM
Popcorn intensifies!
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 15, 2021, 08:13:07 AM
I have a friend that does a lot of consulting work with the aircraft manufacturing industry. He spends a lot of time on the shop floor working with the (unionized) guys operating the machines. As he puts it, "A company gets the union it deserves."
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 15, 2021, 08:20:39 AM
Nothing good about unions.

A collective bargaining agreement can keep your employer from being able to force you to get vaccinated (e.g., Teachers Unions -- ironically).
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dungeon crawler on October 15, 2021, 08:36:31 AM
 I do not see this ending well for BAIZUO or the employees. I now expect the wokeness to intensify beyond all measure. I grew up in a Union Home and let me tell you when the union was on about something I got the brunt of it from my father. 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 15, 2021, 08:59:05 AM
Fuck man. Tell all the companies I've submitted applications, that.

I'm about two weeks from getting a McJob out of desperation.
It's a weird economy.

  I dont think so, there are some jobs where being the wrong flavor puts you at the back of the line.  There are others where people will hire anyone who shows up and do not have time to ensure the "right flavors" are represented.  If you are in a situation where we are trying to ensure flavors (while back in school last year, EVERY day I was emailed about making sure I knew all the women and minorities knew all about IT career openings, and every tech class I had in person the instructor did the exact same thing) career wise I think it is a tricky situation.  If you are some other situations, like actually need any job you can get, you will get a job in under 2 minutes.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 15, 2021, 08:59:44 AM
Nothing good about unions.

A collective bargaining agreement can keep your employer from being able to force you to get vaccinated (e.g., Teachers Unions -- ironically).

  So can growing a set of balls.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 15, 2021, 09:43:17 AM
Nothing good about unions.

A collective bargaining agreement can keep your employer from being able to force you to get vaccinated (e.g., Teachers Unions -- ironically).

  So can growing a set of balls.

Unfortunately "growing a set of balls" won't keep you employed when you refuse to get vaccinated.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: DM_Curt on October 15, 2021, 10:44:25 AM
Nothing good about unions.

A collective bargaining agreement can keep your employer from being able to force you to get vaccinated (e.g., Teachers Unions -- ironically).

  So can growing a set of balls.

Unfortunately "growing a set of balls" won't keep you employed when you refuse to get vaccinated.
There's a protest locally for a HS coach who allegedly got fired for being unvaxxed, despite having some (heart?) condition that prevented her from doing so. I'm going to be looking for more details before I get too worked up over it, but we do have a really shitty school board and superintendent,  so it's Plausible.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 15, 2021, 11:54:49 AM
Nothing good about unions.

A collective bargaining agreement can keep your employer from being able to force you to get vaccinated (e.g., Teachers Unions -- ironically).

  So can growing a set of balls.

Unfortunately "growing a set of balls" won't keep you employed when you refuse to get vaccinated.

  Part of growing a set of balls is you go out and make yourself a job if the job you have is demanding things you do not want to do.  I do not fault anyone who wants to keep the job they have, for the money they make.    But...if there was ever a time to be consumed by the entrepreneur spirit....
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 15, 2021, 12:21:30 PM
Nothing good about unions.

A collective bargaining agreement can keep your employer from being able to force you to get vaccinated (e.g., Teachers Unions -- ironically).

  So can growing a set of balls.

Unfortunately "growing a set of balls" won't keep you employed when you refuse to get vaccinated.

  Part of growing a set of balls is you go out and make yourself a job if the job you have is demanding things you do not want to do.  I do not fault anyone who wants to keep the job they have, for the money they make.    But...if there was ever a time to be consumed by the entrepreneur spirit....

If only it was that easy. Most people (me included) are either not smart enough, don't have the skill set, the imagination, and/or the personality to be an entrepreneur.

Moreover, not all endeavors are executed via entrepreneurs. In my field (R&D engineering in the national laboratories complex), the vast majority of people work for the large LLC that runs lab they work at. I have known a handful of people that have "grown a set of balls" and started their own company. In all of the cases I know of, the key ingredient wasn't balls, rather it was having a wife (preferably non-white/non-asian) as a co-owner. It also helped to have internal connections to the people that contracted out work.

Hence, at least for some a union would be a more viable alternative. Not that a union doesn't have its downsides.

That said, I agree with, "...if there was ever a time to be consumed by the entrepreneur spirit....".
 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: ChrisFox on October 15, 2021, 12:34:25 PM
In situations like yours a union might make sense. Their original purpose is about to come back with a vengeance, because our currency is about to enter free fall. Current wages will not be sufficient, and workers will need to fight.

I went out and made my own company. I work far, far, far harder than I ever did in any job from breaking up concrete to engineering for a startup. It is brutal. My family's insurance alone is $22,000 annually. That used to be paid for me. I spend $4 - 10k a month in ads. There's cover design, and accounting, and market researching.

But I wasn't happy with my job. I didn't like what I had to do for the salary I earned. I didn't like not being able to make my own decisions, and have power over my own life. So I took a huge risk, and worked hard until my dream became reality.

What I seem to be seeing from our Baizou buddies says they want the best of both worlds. They don't want to take the risks I've taken. They don't want to make their own games. But they want good pay, and good benefits.

I don't have any employees for precisely this reason. I do all the writing myself, and I hire artists, and pay my wife to edit. Because the second you hire someone they feel like they own part of what you've built.

If the union is being created because workers are being mistreated and underpaid? More power to them. If it's the inmates taking over the asylum as it appears from my armchair position? Expect Pathfinder's best days to be behind it.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Lynn on October 15, 2021, 01:56:30 PM
If the union is being created because workers are being mistreated and underpaid? More power to them. If it's the inmates taking over the asylum as it appears from my armchair position? Expect Pathfinder's best days to be behind it.
Likely the latter.

I went to a number of the PaizoCons and, at one point, visited their offices to talk about content licensing (now quite a few years ago). All things considered, except for some of the rather amoral rumors floating around, I thought they were pretty well taken care of by management. So many of those jobs would be very easily packed up and moved to other markets. At least back then, they also used a lot of freelance artists and designers already.

Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: GriswaldTerrastone on October 15, 2021, 02:18:19 PM
My father, who was decidedly anti-communist, was very pro-union.

He was old enough to remember the "bad `ol days," and understood that equality and justice come from a position of power, not wishful thinking.

Unions are (were?) an important counterbalance. Strong management and strong unions helped create the middle class too many took for granted in later years, because there was intelligent give and take. Both sides had something the other needed, so neither side grew too powerful. In some cases it was MAD, but since mutual destruction hurt both sides they would work out a rational deal.

But, as usual...and when communist infiltrators got ahold of too much of it, as they did the civil rights movement, something good was warped into a parody of what it was. Without sensible, intelligent leaders who are genuinely strong and dedicated, unions can only bring ruin as surely as greedy, callous management.
Title: How well is Pathfinder 2.0 selling?
Post by: Ruprecht on October 15, 2021, 02:30:21 PM
I suspect these 30 people have just volunteered to be the first to go when Piazo has to cut headcount to survive.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on October 15, 2021, 02:30:32 PM
My father, who was decidedly anti-communist, was very pro-union.

He was old enough to remember the "bad `ol days," and understood that equality and justice come from a position of power, not wishful thinking.

Unions are (were?) an important counterbalance. Strong management and strong unions helped create the middle class too many took for granted in later years, because there was intelligent give and take. Both sides had something the other needed, so neither side grew too powerful. In some cases it was MAD, but since mutual destruction hurt both sides they would work out a rational deal.

But, as usual...and when communist infiltrators got ahold of too much of it, as they did the civil rights movement, something good was warped into a parody of what it was. Without sensible, intelligent leaders who are genuinely strong and dedicated, unions can only bring ruin as surely as greedy, callous management.

Private unions are a great tool to deal with monopolistic employers. Even in their original state were they corrupted at times? Of course. But they're fine in principal.

I tend to think that unions creating the middle class is an overstatement. Much of it was classic jumping in front of the parade stuff. Like how by the time child labor was outlawed, it was already down to a pretty low % simply due to increasing economic/tech progress generally. But - they're still a fine tool.

(Public unions are an entirely different thing which even FDR was against - if that tells you anything.)

But really - I don't see Paizo being able to unionize successfully. Union success relies upon there being such a number of them that they can't be easily replaced en-mass, while TTRPG designers and basic marketing workers are a dime a dozen. Replacing half their workforce wouldn't be super hard, and then those workers will be mostly out of a job since full-time TTRPG designer jobs are pretty rare. Only Paizo & Wizards are probably large enough to not count as a small business.

So many of those jobs would be very easily packed up and moved to other markets. At least back then, they also used a lot of freelance artists and designers already.

That's the big issue. TTRPG designers are a dime a dozen, while unions can only work when it's difficult to replace the whole workforce. (Unless you're going full-on mafia and threatening the scabs etc. Which is basically another way to make them difficult to replace.)
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: gawdsofwar on October 15, 2021, 04:27:33 PM
Hi y'all!  Long time board-stalker, first time poster. 

This is indeed a bizarre development and I don't think it'll end particularly well for either Paizo or the individuals attempting to "stick it to the man".  Unfortunately for all involved, Paizo is just not a company that needs to exist anymore.  It certainly did in '09 when people wanted a more traditional alternative to the drastically different 4E but that ship has sailed, "traditional D&D" is back (sort of*), Pathfinder 2 was unnecessary and uninspired, and the adventure paths written for it have been the very definition of style over substance.  The individuals who've decided to form a union at Paizo are not skilled professionals.  They're not airline pilots--they're easily-replaceable barely-skilled labor at a company struggling to stay relevant when it's decidedly not.  Creatives and web-developers are a dime-a-dozen.  Paizo can simply sack the lot of them (I certainly would) and move on.
*I'm not a 5E guy by any stretch of the imagination and wouldn't think of giving WotC a dime at this point, but it's closer to what I would call "traditional D&D" than 4E was.

Paizo's swan-dive from relevance actually bothers me as a former Paizo fan.  Many of the best, heck, maybe *all* of the best 3/3.5E adventures came from Paizo, either through the Paizo-run Dungeon magazine or Paizo employees' efforts for WotC (Red Hand of Doom, Castle Greyhawk, etc.).  When WotC unceremoniously dumped Paizo w/ the release of 4E, I stuck with them, buying just about every Paizo product I could get my hands on.  The first five years worth of adventure paths were amazing, but soon, the dreaded virtue-signaling-over-substance took hold and it was all downhill from there.  I'd like to see Paizo recover from its recent bad press and this bad-faith decision on the part of some of its employees *and* for them to get back to making ass-kicking politics-free adventures but, alas...there's essentially a zero percent chance of that happening.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Hakdov on October 15, 2021, 06:15:32 PM
If we're really lucky, this sort of thing will catch on and wotc employees will try to unionize.  I'm pretty sure Hasbro would shutter wotc before they would allow that to happen. 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Lynn on October 15, 2021, 06:18:59 PM
So many of those jobs would be very easily packed up and moved to other markets. At least back then, they also used a lot of freelance artists and designers already.
That's the big issue. TTRPG designers are a dime a dozen, while unions can only work when it's difficult to replace the whole workforce. (Unless you're going full-on mafia and threatening the scabs etc. Which is basically another way to make them difficult to replace.)
The local environment might make a difference as well. Back when Powell's unionized in Portland, even in a generally union friendly city, there was resentment. Fortunately, the union leaders at Powell's benefited from being able to look in the books and could see what Powell's could or couldn't actually do - even to the point of accepting temp employees, pay freezes and the like.

On the other hand, the exact same union was the one that slowed the international port of the Port of Portland to the point that it lost all international business for years. And it was all the result of it and another union squabbling over six jobs. The same union got hit with a huge lawsuit - which was eventually reduced. Had the original penalty been enforced, it would have lost everything. It did hundreds of millions of dollars damage as all that shipping had to go through Seattle instead, and then goods shipped to Portland by truck.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Zelen on October 15, 2021, 08:22:38 PM
Unless you're D&D/WotC I don't see how you can have an RPG publishing business HQed in Seattle. Moreover, I don't see how you can have a bunch of political activists larping as game developers as your primary staff.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on October 15, 2021, 09:14:00 PM
I have a Paizo account that I use to get old issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazine, as well as other PDF products that are only sold on the Paizo store. It would be really, really annoying if the company sinks.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Horace on October 15, 2021, 09:19:02 PM
Pathfinder 2 was unnecessary and uninspired
I think it could have been done well (i.e. successfully), but it's apparent now that Pathfinder 2E is not a great success. Two years after its release, it is still trailing behind 1E in the number of players on Roll20, with roughly twice as many 1E games as 2E. That's not what Paizo was hoping for, I'm sure. Oh, and Starfinder is doing even worse.

Source: https://blog.roll20.net/media/orrreport-2021-q2-long-2.pdf

 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Shasarak on October 15, 2021, 09:24:40 PM
I have a Paizo account that I use to get old issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazine, as well as other PDF products that are only sold on the Paizo store. It would be really, really annoying if the company sinks.

Download now, while you still can
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Shasarak on October 15, 2021, 09:37:36 PM
Pathfinder 2 was unnecessary and uninspired
I think it could have been done well (i.e. successfully), but it's apparent now that Pathfinder 2E is not a great success. Two years after its release, it is still trailing behind 1E in the number of players on Roll20, with roughly twice as many 1E games as 2E. That's not what Paizo was hoping for, I'm sure. Oh, and Starfinder is doing even worse.

Source: https://blog.roll20.net/media/orrreport-2021-q2-long-2.pdf

Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Horace on October 15, 2021, 09:58:42 PM
Pathfinder 2 was unnecessary and uninspired
I think it could have been done well (i.e. successfully), but it's apparent now that Pathfinder 2E is not a great success. Two years after its release, it is still trailing behind 1E in the number of players on Roll20, with roughly twice as many 1E games as 2E. That's not what Paizo was hoping for, I'm sure. Oh, and Starfinder is doing even worse.

Source: https://blog.roll20.net/media/orrreport-2021-q2-long-2.pdf
Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?
It has been consistently near the top of the list the past few years. You can find past reports here: https://wiki.roll20.net/Orr_Industry_Report

Of course, I'm not sure how closely Roll20 reflects the general gaming population. But I think it's a pretty good reflection of general trends.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Jaeger on October 15, 2021, 10:28:07 PM
UPDATE: Ruh RoH!

https://twitter.com/doctorcomics/status/1449126582937808898
Today I want to shine a spotlight on UPW’s secret weapon: freelancers. Paizo’s freelancers are our ally in this fight and we’re helping each other. Here’s how: 1/11
Paizo’s business model is built on freelancers. Very few of the words in our publications are written in-house by full time employees on the clock. Instead, we outline projects, hire freelancers to execute those outlines, and develop and edit those manuscripts. 2/11
This allows a relatively small number of people (about 35, including art directors, editors, designers, developers, and more) to produce, well, everything. Have you seen our publication schedule lately? It’s LONG. And Paizo must publish new books to pay its bills. 3/11
Well, about a month ago, about 40 of Paizo’s most reliable, prolific, and skilled freelancers simply stopped working. In official parlance, this is called “concerted action.” In layman’s terms, it’s a strike without a union. 4/11
https://twitter.com/DavicTheGrey/status/1449044546969608195/photo/1

Some of these freelancers were in the middle of projects, with upcoming deadlines. Some of them had completed manuscripts they refused to turn over. Some were people we need to hire, to get scheduled books underway in time to publish. All of that FROZE. 5/11
Folks, Paizo can’t operate in that environment. We can’t just assign 10,000 word Org Play scenarios, 35,000 word SF adventures, 50,000 word P2 adventures to new, untested freelancers. And for many projects, it’s too late in the schedule to do that anyway. 6/11
Now, this group of freelancers had a specific list of demands. They wanted Paizo to hire a diversity officer, for example, and investigate recent terminations. But yesterday, they updated their demands: they’ll all come back to work if Paizo recognizes United Paizo Workers. 7/11
This is an enormous lever, and we at UPW are incredibly grateful to have it. Paizo can’t make its publication schedule without freelancers, and it can’t pay exec salaries without publications. But if they recognize our union, freelancers come back to work TOMORROW. 8/11
Sure, yes, contract negotiations will be long and trying for all involved. But Paizo will still get books out the door, it’ll be able to make its commitments and pay its bills and salaries. And during contract negotiation, we, the people who hire freelancers, can pay back. 9/11
In contract negotiation, we can fight for better pay rates for freelancers. We can get more time in the schedule, so writers have time to do their job right. We can get playtesting built into these schedules, which not only helps freelancers but creates better books. 10/11
Paizo’s freelancers and United @PaizoWorkers are working hand in hand. And I am so grateful, honored, and humbled to have that partnership. @tectonomancer, we will not let you down! 11/11

If true...

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! ROTFL!!!

And so goeth the house of Baizuo publishing...


...
Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?

CoC is crazy popular. #1 RPG in Japan, it is the 800,000lb Gorilla of the hobby over there... (I'd imagine the royalties from that alone would put Chaosium higher on something like ICV2's listings if they were able to capture it.)

At times the CoC corebook it even beat out the PF2 corebook in sales rankings on Amazon this past year.

I think it could be even more popular if Chaosium was willing to try a different take on a few things.

CoC sales basically let Chaosium indulge in the fantasy that people actually like Gorlanthia.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: GeekyBugle on October 15, 2021, 10:34:51 PM
UPDATE: Ruh RoH!

https://twitter.com/doctorcomics/status/1449126582937808898
Today I want to shine a spotlight on UPW’s secret weapon: freelancers. Paizo’s freelancers are our ally in this fight and we’re helping each other. Here’s how: 1/11
Paizo’s business model is built on freelancers. Very few of the words in our publications are written in-house by full time employees on the clock. Instead, we outline projects, hire freelancers to execute those outlines, and develop and edit those manuscripts. 2/11
This allows a relatively small number of people (about 35, including art directors, editors, designers, developers, and more) to produce, well, everything. Have you seen our publication schedule lately? It’s LONG. And Paizo must publish new books to pay its bills. 3/11
Well, about a month ago, about 40 of Paizo’s most reliable, prolific, and skilled freelancers simply stopped working. In official parlance, this is called “concerted action.” In layman’s terms, it’s a strike without a union. 4/11
https://twitter.com/DavicTheGrey/status/1449044546969608195/photo/1

Some of these freelancers were in the middle of projects, with upcoming deadlines. Some of them had completed manuscripts they refused to turn over. Some were people we need to hire, to get scheduled books underway in time to publish. All of that FROZE. 5/11
Folks, Paizo can’t operate in that environment. We can’t just assign 10,000 word Org Play scenarios, 35,000 word SF adventures, 50,000 word P2 adventures to new, untested freelancers. And for many projects, it’s too late in the schedule to do that anyway. 6/11
Now, this group of freelancers had a specific list of demands. They wanted Paizo to hire a diversity officer, for example, and investigate recent terminations. But yesterday, they updated their demands: they’ll all come back to work if Paizo recognizes United Paizo Workers. 7/11
This is an enormous lever, and we at UPW are incredibly grateful to have it. Paizo can’t make its publication schedule without freelancers, and it can’t pay exec salaries without publications. But if they recognize our union, freelancers come back to work TOMORROW. 8/11
Sure, yes, contract negotiations will be long and trying for all involved. But Paizo will still get books out the door, it’ll be able to make its commitments and pay its bills and salaries. And during contract negotiation, we, the people who hire freelancers, can pay back. 9/11
In contract negotiation, we can fight for better pay rates for freelancers. We can get more time in the schedule, so writers have time to do their job right. We can get playtesting built into these schedules, which not only helps freelancers but creates better books. 10/11
Paizo’s freelancers and United @PaizoWorkers are working hand in hand. And I am so grateful, honored, and humbled to have that partnership. @tectonomancer, we will not let you down! 11/11

If true...

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! ROTFL!!!

And so goeth the house of Baizuo publishing...


...
Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?

CoC is crazy popular. #1 RPG in Japan, it is the 800,000lb Gorilla of the hobby over there... (I'd imagine the royalties from that alone would put Chaosium higher on something like ICV2's listings if they were able to capture it.)

At times the CoC corebook it even beat out the PF2 corebook in sales rankings on Amazon this past year.

I think it could be even more popular if Chaosium was willing to try a different take on a few things.

CoC sales basically let Chaosium indulge in the fantasy that people actually like Gorlanthia.

Wait, aren't those freelancers in breach of contract?

I imagine Baizuo is fucked either way but if I were in control I wouldn't give them any work in the future, and would make sure their names are known.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Shasarak on October 15, 2021, 10:36:39 PM
Pathfinder 2 was unnecessary and uninspired
I think it could have been done well (i.e. successfully), but it's apparent now that Pathfinder 2E is not a great success. Two years after its release, it is still trailing behind 1E in the number of players on Roll20, with roughly twice as many 1E games as 2E. That's not what Paizo was hoping for, I'm sure. Oh, and Starfinder is doing even worse.

Source: https://blog.roll20.net/media/orrreport-2021-q2-long-2.pdf
Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?
It has been consistently near the top of the list the past few years. You can find past reports here: https://wiki.roll20.net/Orr_Industry_Report

Of course, I'm not sure how closely Roll20 reflects the general gaming population. But I think it's a pretty good reflection of general trends.

Its just that it never shows up on the top 5 RPG list

https://www.enworld.org/threads/top-5-rpgs-compiled-charts-2004-present.662563/ (https://www.enworld.org/threads/top-5-rpgs-compiled-charts-2004-present.662563/)
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Mistwell on October 15, 2021, 10:42:34 PM
If we're really lucky, this sort of thing will catch on and wotc employees will try to unionize.  I'm pretty sure Hasbro would shutter wotc before they would allow that to happen.

Psst. All Hasro-branded games and toys are union-made.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Horace on October 15, 2021, 11:06:13 PM
Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?
It has been consistently near the top of the list the past few years. You can find past reports here: https://wiki.roll20.net/Orr_Industry_Report

Of course, I'm not sure how closely Roll20 reflects the general gaming population. But I think it's a pretty good reflection of general trends.
Its just that it never shows up on the top 5 RPG list

https://www.enworld.org/threads/top-5-rpgs-compiled-charts-2004-present.662563/ (https://www.enworld.org/threads/top-5-rpgs-compiled-charts-2004-present.662563/)
Huh. Yes, that's quite a discrepancy. I went searching for an explanation, but couldn't find one. And when I did a search on Roll20's LFG just now, I saw that there are actually more listings for Pathfinder 2E groups than there are for Call of Cthulhu, which is not what you would expect from the Orr Report numbers. Strange.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Jaeger on October 15, 2021, 11:27:57 PM

Wait, aren't those freelancers in breach of contract?

Probably...

But Baizuo has pushed themselves forward for years as being the "community friendly company", and given the way they fell all over themselves to apologize to Miss Price's twitter feed; I seriously doubt that they have the balls to call these guys down on their shit.


I imagine Baizuo is fucked either way but if I were in control I wouldn't give them any work in the future, and would make sure their names are known.

Oh yes, this is going to be fun to see! Even though I think we will have to wait a few years to see the real fallout from all of this.

But if I were made Ceo of Baizuo tomorrow?

The Purge movie franchise would have nothing on me...

At this point the cancer has spread so thoroughly through the company that only a series of emergency amputation's will do. Followed by a complete restructuring, and move out of Washington state.

Anything less is merely putting off the inevitable.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Horace on October 15, 2021, 11:45:50 PM
UPDATE: Ruh RoH!
https://twitter.com/doctorcomics/status/1449126582937808898
...a specific list of demands. They wanted Paizo to hire a diversity officer, for example...
Ah yes, because nothing benefits workers more than adding another overpaid sinecure to the management bureaucracy.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Charon's Little Helper on October 16, 2021, 12:37:51 AM
Pathfinder 2 was unnecessary and uninspired
I think it could have been done well (i.e. successfully), but it's apparent now that Pathfinder 2E is not a great success. Two years after its release, it is still trailing behind 1E in the number of players on Roll20, with roughly twice as many 1E games as 2E. That's not what Paizo was hoping for, I'm sure. Oh, and Starfinder is doing even worse.

Source: https://blog.roll20.net/media/orrreport-2021-q2-long-2.pdf
Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?
It has been consistently near the top of the list the past few years. You can find past reports here: https://wiki.roll20.net/Orr_Industry_Report

Of course, I'm not sure how closely Roll20 reflects the general gaming population. But I think it's a pretty good reflection of general trends.

While I have no doubt that CoC is reasonably popular, I've always guessed that its Roll20 numbers are so high because it's good for one-shots, and if you're trying to play online with randos then often you're better off not trying for a real campaign.

If we're really lucky, this sort of thing will catch on and wotc employees will try to unionize.  I'm pretty sure Hasbro would shutter wotc before they would allow that to happen.

Psst. All Hasro-branded games and toys are union-made.

Where do you get that idea? A lot of it's made in China, and China doesn't have unions.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Novastar on October 16, 2021, 12:49:43 AM
Wait, aren't those freelancers in breach of contract?

I imagine Baizuo is fucked either way but if I were in control I wouldn't give them any work in the future, and would make sure their names are known.
They are, but are you really going to take them to court?
The settlement would be pennies on the dollar, and you probably wouldn't even get manuscript's.

That said, I'd love to see Paizo take a page from Ronald Reagan: sack their asses, and just hire replacements.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Jam The MF on October 16, 2021, 12:51:06 AM
Maybe the damn players need to form a union?  Then they can petition their DM / GM, for a redress of their grievances.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: GeekyBugle on October 16, 2021, 01:06:16 AM

Wait, aren't those freelancers in breach of contract?

Probably...

But Baizuo has pushed themselves forward for years as being the "community friendly company", and given the way they fell all over themselves to apologize to Miss Price's twitter feed; I seriously doubt that they have the balls to call these guys down on their shit.


I imagine Baizuo is fucked either way but if I were in control I wouldn't give them any work in the future, and would make sure their names are known.

Oh yes, this is going to be fun to see! Even though I think we will have to wait a few years to see the real fallout from all of this.

But if I were made Ceo of Baizuo tomorrow?

The Purge movie franchise would have nothing on me...

At this point the cancer has spread so thoroughly through the company that only a series of emergency amputation's will do. Followed by a complete restructuring, and move out of Washington state.

Anything less is merely putting off the inevitable.

They are, but are you really going to take them to court?
The settlement would be pennies on the dollar, and you probably wouldn't even get manuscript's.

That said, I'd love to see Paizo take a page from Ronald Reagan: sack their asses, and just hire replacements.

"You get a pink slip, he gets a pink slip, she gets a pink slip, everybody gets a pink slip!"
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Novastar on October 16, 2021, 01:10:29 AM
I think Air Traffic Controller requires a more specialized set of skills than "Starfinder developer" or "web developer". I notice the 30 signatures heavily favor those two lines.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Gann on October 16, 2021, 03:58:45 AM
Those figures seem strange, is Cthulhu really that popular?
It's the top selling RPG in Japan so that probably boosts it's numbers significantly.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Melan on October 16, 2021, 04:14:21 AM
My father, who was decidedly anti-communist, was very pro-union.

He was old enough to remember the "bad `ol days," and understood that equality and justice come from a position of power, not wishful thinking.

Unions are (were?) an important counterbalance. Strong management and strong unions helped create the middle class too many took for granted in later years, because there was intelligent give and take. Both sides had something the other needed, so neither side grew too powerful. In some cases it was MAD, but since mutual destruction hurt both sides they would work out a rational deal.

But, as usual...and when communist infiltrators got ahold of too much of it, as they did the civil rights movement, something good was warped into a parody of what it was. Without sensible, intelligent leaders who are genuinely strong and dedicated, unions can only bring ruin as surely as greedy, callous management.
Yeah, this is more or less where I am at. In our day, there needs to be a check on runaway corporate, media and state power, and unions could be very useful for that. We are entering an age where powerful oligarchies have gotten it into their minds to disenfranchise the common man, and establish an unprecedented level of control over our thoughts and actions. Resisting that needs organisation, strength in numbers and all. So in theory, bully for them.

Except, for a lot of unions, the main objective does not seem to be the representation of employee interests, but "overthrowing capitalism / the Patriarchy / western civilisation". Curious how that seems to have become the end goal of so many social projects while abandoning the original platform (e.g. protecting workers' rights). Look at that tweet collection (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/baizuo-pazio-going-union!-the-beginning-of-the-end!/msg1193269/#msg1193269) upthread.

They want a "diversity officer". It is a bunch of cancer cells lobbying for more cancer.

So yeah, time to prepare the popcorn.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: King Tyranno on October 16, 2021, 08:32:04 AM
BAIZUO Workers of the World, UNITE!
https://unitedpaizoworkers.org/

Jessica Price's Twitter feed... The gift that keeps on giving:


Redmond, WA (October 14th, 2021) — Today, the workers at Paizo, Inc – publisher of the Pathfinder and Starfinder roleplaying games – are announcing their formation of the United Paizo Workers union (UPW), with the Communication Workers of America’s CODE-CWA project. This union is the first of its kind in the tabletop roleplaying games industry.

“Unions have helped build a stronger working class in America and I’m proud to stand with United Paizo Workers. I believe that when we all work together, we’re better for it. Unionization allows workers to have a seat at the table and ensures that our voices and concerns are being heard and addressed so that all of Paizo can move forward for a positive future.”

Shay Snow, Editor
“I love my job. I love my coworkers, and I love the company I work for. I get to sell a game that I love to a community that I love. I come from a pro-union family, and I believe that unionizing Paizo will be the best way to protect the people, company, and community that I love, for now and going forward into the future.”

Cosmo Eisele, Sales Manager
“My coworkers are amazing and so are the games we make together. I want Paizo to keep publishing Pathfinder and Starfinder content for years to come. This is my way of helping management improve our company culture, and by extension, the content we produce.”

Jenny Jarzabski, Starfinder Developer
“I proudly stand with my coworkers as we strive to help improve our workplace, and I believe the UPW will amplify our voices and assist with the changes we feel are necessary in making Paizo a more positive space for its employees.”

Logan Harper, Customer Service Representative
Paizo is one of the largest tabletop roleplaying publishers in the world, producing more than 10 hardcover books annually, along with numerous digital adventures and gaming accessories. Paizo also runs some of the most successful living campaigns in tabletop gaming history, with regular players in more than 36 countries. However, despite this success, Paizo’s workers are underpaid for their labor, required to live in one of the most expensive cities in the United States, and subjected to untenable crunch conditions on a regular basis.

Though efforts to organize by the Paizo workforce had already been underway for some time, the sudden departures of several long-standing employees in September and the subsequent allegations of managerial impropriety by former Paizo employees threw into stark relief the imbalance of the employer/employee relationship. These events, as well as internal conversations among Paizo workers, have uncovered a pattern of inconsistent hiring practices, pay inequity across the company, allegations of verbal abuse from executives and management, and allegations of harassment ignored or covered up by those at the top. These findings have further galvanized the need for clearer policies and stronger employee protections to ensure that Paizo staff can feel secure in their employment.

Changes have been promised, internally and externally, by the executive team. However, the only way to ensure that all workers’ voices are heard is collective action. It is in this spirit that the workers of Paizo have united to push for real changes at the company. The UPW is committed to advocating on behalf of all staffers, and invites all eligible Paizo employees to join in the push for better, more sustainable working conditions. The union requests the broad support of the tabletop community in urging Paizo management to voluntarily recognize the United Paizo Workers, and to negotiate in good faith with the union so that they may build a better workplace together.

For more information, please contact the Organizing Committee at committee@unitedpaizoworkers.org

Raychael Allor, Customer Service Representative
Brian Bauman, Software Architect
Logan Bonner, Pathfinder Lead Designer
Robert Brandenburg, Software Developer
James Case, Pathfinder Game Designer
John Compton, Starfinder Senior Developer
Katina Davis, Webstore Coordinator
David “Cosmo” Eisele, Sales Manager
Eleanor Ferron, Pathfinder Developer
Keith Greer, Customer Service Representative
Logan Harper, Customer Service Representative
Sasha “Mika” Hawkins, Sales and E-Commerce Assistant
Jenny Jarzabski, Starfinder Developer
Erik Keith, Software Test Engineer
Mike Kimmel, Organized Play Developer
Avi Kool, Senior Editor
Maryssa Lagervall, Web Content Manager
Luis Loza, Pathfinder Developer
Joe Pasini, Starfinder Lead Designer
Austin Phillips, Customer Service Representative
Lee Rucker, Project Coordinator
Michael Sayre, Pathfinder Designer
Shay Snow, Editor
Alex Speidel, Organized Play Coordinator
Levi Steadman, Software Test Engineer
Gary Teter, Senior Software Developer
Josh Thornton, Systems Administrator II
Jake Tondro, Senior Developer
Andrew White, Front End Engineering Lead
In Solidarity,
Thurston Hillman, Digital Adventures Developer

So About 30 people already - close to half their workforce?

Lisa Stevens is functionally retiring, so she may not see this as her problem...

FWIW - Unions are not inherently bad for companies. But neither are they inherently good for companies, or the long term interests of their members/employee's.

It really depends how they are run. Especially in how the union will protect the interests of good employee's vs. its willingness to work with employers to cut bad hires loose.

The union contract that would come out of this would be a big tell for how this will go...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2013/12/17/how-the-unions-destroy-their-own-as-viewed-by-a-life-long-union-supporter/?sh=19e78c8643f8

No one knows the Baizuo internal financials. But they do employ more people than WotC's D&D division, and they do not do 5e sales levels.

If Baizuo goes union, the next few years will be very interesting.


Also; Not sayin' they're similar, but...

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/244477416_1054144752021520_7117361610008376590_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=v8CRtT0Gmb0AX8qklJ3&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=157b179a46f25e3620f9bf9f5d9ac0f5&oe=618F5FD3)
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/245345833_1054143818688280_6434799686031535961_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=gcQ3KYettssAX_ssoTO&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=09055f2b312dec7e49082479b7aa8cd2&oe=618E6BB7)

Yup, it's Commies...

I think it's really nice of these lads to post a list of all their names so Paizo know exactly who to sack.

My father, who was decidedly anti-communist, was very pro-union.

He was old enough to remember the "bad `ol days," and understood that equality and justice come from a position of power, not wishful thinking.

Unions are (were?) an important counterbalance. Strong management and strong unions helped create the middle class too many took for granted in later years, because there was intelligent give and take. Both sides had something the other needed, so neither side grew too powerful. In some cases it was MAD, but since mutual destruction hurt both sides they would work out a rational deal.

But, as usual...and when communist infiltrators got ahold of too much of it, as they did the civil rights movement, something good was warped into a parody of what it was. Without sensible, intelligent leaders who are genuinely strong and dedicated, unions can only bring ruin as surely as greedy, callous management.
Yeah, this is more or less where I am at. In our day, there needs to be a check on runaway corporate, media and state power, and unions could be very useful for that. We are entering an age where powerful oligarchies have gotten it into their minds to disenfranchise the common man, and establish an unprecedented level of control over our thoughts and actions. Resisting that needs organisation, strength in numbers and all. So in theory, bully for them.

Except, for a lot of unions, the main objective does not seem to be the representation of employee interests, but "overthrowing capitalism / the Patriarchy / western civilisation". Curious how that seems to have become the end goal of so many social projects while abandoning the original platform (e.g. protecting workers' rights). Look at that tweet collection (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/baizuo-pazio-going-union!-the-beginning-of-the-end!/msg1193269/#msg1193269) upthread.

They want a "diversity officer". It is a bunch of cancer cells lobbying for more cancer.

So yeah, time to prepare the popcorn.

Unions do not have the power you think they do. Even in the old days before SJW wokeness Unions were often rackets FOR the employer and used a lot of underhanded tactics to make money. The most obvious was paying a subscription to the Union. But it was timegated so you had to pay a certain amount over a certain time which was often ludicrously high even for the era. For example, if you didn't pay 3000 over a two year period you got no union protections whatsoever until you reached that milestone. Which unlocked basic privileges and not the full thing you have been paying full price for for over a year.

That's before we even get into construction unions and their ties to the mob.

You are correct in that we need some kind of organized group to keep the oligarchs in check. But it needs to be more watertight than a union.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Mistwell on October 16, 2021, 11:12:11 AM
Where do you get that idea? A lot of it's made in China, and China doesn't have unions.

From UnionPlus: DID YOU KNOW THAT ALL HASBRO BRANDED GAMES AND TOYS ARE ALL UNION-MADE?  (https://www.unionplus.org/blog/union-made/union-made-toys)

I believe Hasbro employees are mostly unionized under the AFL-CIO. For example, a lot is made in Pennsylvania, as explained by their AFL-CIO here (http://www.paaflcio.org/?p=9696).
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Mistwell on October 16, 2021, 11:17:45 AM
I think it's really nice of these lads to post a list of all their names so Paizo know exactly who to sack.

That would be rather illegal.

There is an entire separate legal system for labor relations matters involving unions with its own separate court system and everything. Unless you're really old, union busting has been illegal your entire life. Firing people for trying to form a union is basically the #1 no-no for those laws.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 16, 2021, 11:18:29 AM
Where do you get that idea? A lot of it's made in China, and China doesn't have unions.

From UnionPlus: DID YOU KNOW THAT ALL HASBRO BRANDED GAMES AND TOYS ARE ALL UNION-MADE?  (https://www.unionplus.org/blog/union-made/union-made-toys)

I believe Hasbro employees are mostly unionized under the AFL-CIO. For example, a lot is made in Pennsylvania, as explained by their AFL-CIO here (http://www.paaflcio.org/?p=9696).

Interesting. I never would have guessed that.

I noticed that DnD/WotC are not listed. As most of their product is printed material, I wonder how much comes from China vs. domestic vs. union?
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 16, 2021, 11:21:34 AM
I think it's really nice of these lads to post a list of all their names so Paizo know exactly who to sack.

That would be rather illegal.

There is an entire separate legal system for labor relations matters involving unions with its own separate court system and everything. Unless you're really old, union busting has been illegal your entire life. Firing people for trying to form a union is basically the #1 no-no for those laws.

True. And yet companies (e.g., Amazon) still do that under the pretense of violation of one or more HR policies.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Mistwell on October 16, 2021, 11:25:59 AM
Where do you get that idea? A lot of it's made in China, and China doesn't have unions.

From UnionPlus: DID YOU KNOW THAT ALL HASBRO BRANDED GAMES AND TOYS ARE ALL UNION-MADE?  (https://www.unionplus.org/blog/union-made/union-made-toys)

I believe Hasbro employees are mostly unionized under the AFL-CIO. For example, a lot is made in Pennsylvania, as explained by their AFL-CIO here (http://www.paaflcio.org/?p=9696).

Interesting. I never would have guessed that.

I noticed that DnD/WotC are not listed. As most of their product is printed material, I wonder how much comes from China vs. domestic vs. union?

As far as I know WOTC is not unionized, just parts of the toys and games unit of Hasbro. I was more saying I don't think Hasbro would consider it the end of the world if WOTC did try to unionize given they've worked with unions for generations now.

With the current transportation problems involving the ports (which is impacting my company by the way - get back to work Pete Buttigieg), I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro sees increased sales this Christmas due to their Made-In-America portions of the company, since they will have product on the shelves when some of their competitors will not.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 16, 2021, 11:40:19 AM
Where do you get that idea? A lot of it's made in China, and China doesn't have unions.

From UnionPlus: DID YOU KNOW THAT ALL HASBRO BRANDED GAMES AND TOYS ARE ALL UNION-MADE?  (https://www.unionplus.org/blog/union-made/union-made-toys)

I believe Hasbro employees are mostly unionized under the AFL-CIO. For example, a lot is made in Pennsylvania, as explained by their AFL-CIO here (http://www.paaflcio.org/?p=9696).

Interesting. I never would have guessed that.

I noticed that DnD/WotC are not listed. As most of their product is printed material, I wonder how much comes from China vs. domestic vs. union?

As far as I know WOTC is not unionized, just parts of the toys and games unit of Hasbro. I was more saying I don't think Hasbro would consider it the end of the world if WOTC did try to unionize given they've worked with unions for generations now.

With the current transportation problems involving the ports (which is impacting my company by the way - get back to work Pete Buttigieg), I wouldn't be surprised if Hasbro sees increased sales this Christmas due to their Made-In-America portions of the company, since they will have product on the shelves when some of their competitors will not.

Good point about Hasbro vs. union.

It will be interesting to see who gets burned by the supply chain this Christmas. In our house, we are stocking up and buying early.

Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: hedgehobbit on October 16, 2021, 11:59:42 AM
...a specific list of demands. They wanted Paizo to hire a diversity officer, for example...
Ah yes, because nothing benefits workers more than adding another overpaid sinecure to the management bureaucracy.

Freelancers are demanding that Paizo hire an employee who's sole job is to give their work to someone else.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 16, 2021, 12:59:14 PM
...a specific list of demands. They wanted Paizo to hire a diversity officer, for example...
Ah yes, because nothing benefits workers more than adding another overpaid sinecure to the management bureaucracy.

Freelancers are demanding that Paizo hire an employee who's sole job is to give their work to someone else.

The cost of that person would reduce the available profits which the unionizers want a bigger piece of.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Jaeger on October 16, 2021, 06:30:21 PM
UPDATE: UNITED PAIZO WORKERS SAYS TRANS RIGHTS

Why?

Because.. umm, uhh, WTF, hell if I know!


Anyway, they Transplain:
https://unitedpaizoworkers.org/2021/10/15/united-paizo-workers-says-trans-rights/
Some of you have noticed that in our announcements about the formation of United Paizo Workers (UPW), we haven’t gone into detail about the accusations toward Paizo leadership that have circulated over the past month. This isn’t because we don’t believe them or don’t take them seriously; instead, our focus has been on building momentum and sharing the positives the union will bring to our team.

That being said, we have had some folks ask where we stand on the allegations of transphobia at Paizo. We’d like to take a moment to state firmly that UPW is a pro-trans union, with a fair number of trans people on the roster, including in the organizing committee. We believe unionizing is the best way forward to protecting trans employees (and all employees) at Paizo, and we regard all accusations of transphobia with the utmost seriousness. No one is safe and represented until we all are, and that’s what forming a union is all about.

Thank you all so much for your tremendous outpouring of love and support over the past couple days. Stay strong and don’t split the party!

Baizuo is so fucked...


...a specific list of demands. They wanted Paizo to hire a diversity officer, for example...
Ah yes, because nothing benefits workers more than adding another overpaid sinecure to the management bureaucracy.
Freelancers are demanding that Paizo hire an employee who's sole job is to give their work to someone else.
The cost of that person would reduce the available profits which the unionizers want a bigger piece of.

Hey, what's with you guys and all this basic economics 101 stuff!?

This is about the United Baizuo Workers attaining financial equity through unity. Why are you guys all over them with this white supremist math shit!?

Show a little respect for the struggle!
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 16, 2021, 06:39:39 PM
Any chance of this union being halfway competent  is now gone.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 16, 2021, 08:01:01 PM
Nothing good about unions.

A collective bargaining agreement can keep your employer from being able to force you to get vaccinated (e.g., Teachers Unions -- ironically).

  So can growing a set of balls.

Unfortunately "growing a set of balls" won't keep you employed when you refuse to get vaccinated.

  Part of growing a set of balls is you go out and make yourself a job if the job you have is demanding things you do not want to do.  I do not fault anyone who wants to keep the job they have, for the money they make.    But...if there was ever a time to be consumed by the entrepreneur spirit....

If only it was that easy. Most people (me included) are either not smart enough, don't have the skill set, the imagination, and/or the personality to be an entrepreneur.

Moreover, not all endeavors are executed via entrepreneurs. In my field (R&D engineering in the national laboratories complex), the vast majority of people work for the large LLC that runs lab they work at. I have known a handful of people that have "grown a set of balls" and started their own company. In all of the cases I know of, the key ingredient wasn't balls, rather it was having a wife (preferably non-white/non-asian) as a co-owner. It also helped to have internal connections to the people that contracted out work.

Hence, at least for some a union would be a more viable alternative. Not that a union doesn't have its downsides.

That said, I agree with, "...if there was ever a time to be consumed by the entrepreneur spirit....".
 

  I disagree, the key ingredient WAS balls...I never said all you need is balls.  Like the saying goes, gonads have a specific purpose, and that purpose does not replace brains.  Sounds to me like the people you speak of also took the time to look into how the game was played, got their ducks in a row, and played the game.   But I understand how people can certainly be locked into a salary in certain jobs (those sweet golden handcuffs), what I have noticed is the talent/ability to be a successful entrepreneur often gets pushed by need more than desire.   I for see a time when there is going to be a need, rather than desire. 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 16, 2021, 08:04:54 PM
In situations like yours a union might make sense. Their original purpose is about to come back with a vengeance, because our currency is about to enter free fall. Current wages will not be sufficient, and workers will need to fight.

I went out and made my own company. I work far, far, far harder than I ever did in any job from breaking up concrete to engineering for a startup. It is brutal. My family's insurance alone is $22,000 annually. That used to be paid for me. I spend $4 - 10k a month in ads. There's cover design, and accounting, and market researching.

But I wasn't happy with my job. I didn't like what I had to do for the salary I earned. I didn't like not being able to make my own decisions, and have power over my own life. So I took a huge risk, and worked hard until my dream became reality.

What I seem to be seeing from our Baizou buddies says they want the best of both worlds. They don't want to take the risks I've taken. They don't want to make their own games. But they want good pay, and good benefits.

I don't have any employees for precisely this reason. I do all the writing myself, and I hire artists, and pay my wife to edit. Because the second you hire someone they feel like they own part of what you've built.

If the union is being created because workers are being mistreated and underpaid? More power to them. If it's the inmates taking over the asylum as it appears from my armchair position? Expect Pathfinder's best days to be behind it.

  My point, stated quite eloquently.   I agree, those people want to be treated as risk takers and creators and rewarded as same.  Yet with no grit, no vision, no risk.  Sorry, it doesnt work that way, and I am very happy to see you having success in your endeavor.   I have a feeling there are almost certainly several people working at paizo who could in fact go out, and to a degree have the same success you have had (and this is not to say that you are not talented, the reality is talent is NOT that rare, the willingness to work your ass off and take a big risk IS RARE) but there is no way in hell they will do it....because muh benefits!!!
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: BoxCrayonTales on October 16, 2021, 08:08:40 PM
I have a Paizo account that I use to get old issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazine, as well as other PDF products that are only sold on the Paizo store. It would be really, really annoying if the company sinks.

Download now, while you still can
I haven’t bought all the magazine issues and don’t have the money to do so in the foreseeable future
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 16, 2021, 08:10:16 PM
If we're really lucky, this sort of thing will catch on and wotc employees will try to unionize.  I'm pretty sure Hasbro would shutter wotc before they would allow that to happen.

Psst. All Hasro-branded games and toys are union-made.

  China has unions?   interesting
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 16, 2021, 08:15:36 PM
  Oh I get it, they moved their toy production to only 50 percent in china to move more production to the union heavy nations of India and Vietnam....https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/23/hasbro-to-cut-china-production-of-its-toys-looks-to-india-and-vietnam.html

   Union made, GTFO
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 16, 2021, 08:18:25 PM
Where do you get that idea? A lot of it's made in China, and China doesn't have unions.

From UnionPlus: DID YOU KNOW THAT ALL HASBRO BRANDED GAMES AND TOYS ARE ALL UNION-MADE?  (https://www.unionplus.org/blog/union-made/union-made-toys)

I believe Hasbro employees are mostly unionized under the AFL-CIO. For example, a lot is made in Pennsylvania, as explained by their AFL-CIO here (http://www.paaflcio.org/?p=9696).

Interesting. I never would have guessed that.

I noticed that DnD/WotC are not listed. As most of their product is printed material, I wonder how much comes from China vs. domestic vs. union?

  used to be over 2/3 of toys were made in china, until Hasbro decided to move China down to 50 percent and increase production in the nations famous for their strong unions, Vietnam and India.  So I would guess less than 1/3 in the USA.  So I guess it helps to "afford" a stateside union when you outsource the mass majority to nations that allow people to be slaves.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 16, 2021, 09:08:49 PM
  Oh I get it, they moved their toy production to only 50 percent in china to move more production to the union heavy nations of India and Vietnam....https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/23/hasbro-to-cut-china-production-of-its-toys-looks-to-india-and-vietnam.html

   Union made, GTFO

Counter-evidence. The plot thickens.

Might it be that piece-parts are made in China, and the final products (Hasbro branded games and toys) are assembled in the US?
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 16, 2021, 09:25:23 PM
Nothing good about unions.

A collective bargaining agreement can keep your employer from being able to force you to get vaccinated (e.g., Teachers Unions -- ironically).

  So can growing a set of balls.

Unfortunately "growing a set of balls" won't keep you employed when you refuse to get vaccinated.

  Part of growing a set of balls is you go out and make yourself a job if the job you have is demanding things you do not want to do.  I do not fault anyone who wants to keep the job they have, for the money they make.    But...if there was ever a time to be consumed by the entrepreneur spirit....

If only it was that easy. Most people (me included) are either not smart enough, don't have the skill set, the imagination, and/or the personality to be an entrepreneur.

Moreover, not all endeavors are executed via entrepreneurs. In my field (R&D engineering in the national laboratories complex), the vast majority of people work for the large LLC that runs lab they work at. I have known a handful of people that have "grown a set of balls" and started their own company. In all of the cases I know of, the key ingredient wasn't balls, rather it was having a wife (preferably non-white/non-asian) as a co-owner. It also helped to have internal connections to the people that contracted out work.

Hence, at least for some a union would be a more viable alternative. Not that a union doesn't have its downsides.

That said, I agree with, "...if there was ever a time to be consumed by the entrepreneur spirit....".
 

  I disagree, the key ingredient WAS balls...I never said all you need is balls.  Like the saying goes, gonads have a specific purpose, and that purpose does not replace brains.  Sounds to me like the people you speak of also took the time to look into how the game was played, got their ducks in a row, and played the game.   But I understand how people can certainly be locked into a salary in certain jobs (those sweet golden handcuffs), what I have noticed is the talent/ability to be a successful entrepreneur often gets pushed by need more than desire.   I for see a time when there is going to be a need, rather than desire.

I guess instead of marrying for love, I should have included on my punch-list being a minority that would get my future company a place at the government hog-trough.  :)

But even with that, an entrepreneur I would never had been. My original professional goal was to build rockets to kill commies. Not something you are going to do in your garage as a start-up. Conversely, my hetro life-mate from graduate school went on to become an entrepreneur. One year, I watched him finance his company with 0% cash advances (life-time of balance) from about two-dozen credit cards. I don't have the stomach (or the balls) for that.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Spinachcat on October 16, 2021, 09:33:03 PM
Good for Baizou.

Gonna be fun to see what the owners do.

My bet? Sell the company and walk away with the cash.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 16, 2021, 09:57:58 PM
Good for Baizou.

Gonna be fun to see what the owners do.

My bet? Sell the company and walk away with the cash.

Having cash after the sale assumes that the company assets are worth more on the open market than it carries in liabilities. My completely un-expert opinion based on no data is that is doubtful. Anyone with expertise and/or data want to weigh in.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 16, 2021, 11:51:08 PM
I have a Paizo account that I use to get old issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazine, as well as other PDF products that are only sold on the Paizo store. It would be really, really annoying if the company sinks.

Download now, while you still can
I haven’t bought all the magazine issues and don’t have the money to do so in the foreseeable future
I believe the Internet Archive has the full print run.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Melan on October 17, 2021, 01:32:42 AM
Good for Baizou.

Gonna be fun to see what the owners do.

My bet? Sell the company and walk away with the cash.
Lisa Stevens has just retired a little while ago. Smart.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Shasarak on October 17, 2021, 04:09:36 AM
I have a Paizo account that I use to get old issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazine, as well as other PDF products that are only sold on the Paizo store. It would be really, really annoying if the company sinks.

Download now, while you still can
I haven’t bought all the magazine issues and don’t have the money to do so in the foreseeable future

I hear that Paizo is looking for writers to fill in for an emergency.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: oggsmash on October 17, 2021, 06:54:01 AM
Nothing good about unions.

A collective bargaining agreement can keep your employer from being able to force you to get vaccinated (e.g., Teachers Unions -- ironically).

  So can growing a set of balls.

Unfortunately "growing a set of balls" won't keep you employed when you refuse to get vaccinated.

  Part of growing a set of balls is you go out and make yourself a job if the job you have is demanding things you do not want to do.  I do not fault anyone who wants to keep the job they have, for the money they make.    But...if there was ever a time to be consumed by the entrepreneur spirit....

If only it was that easy. Most people (me included) are either not smart enough, don't have the skill set, the imagination, and/or the personality to be an entrepreneur.

Moreover, not all endeavors are executed via entrepreneurs. In my field (R&D engineering in the national laboratories complex), the vast majority of people work for the large LLC that runs lab they work at. I have known a handful of people that have "grown a set of balls" and started their own company. In all of the cases I know of, the key ingredient wasn't balls, rather it was having a wife (preferably non-white/non-asian) as a co-owner. It also helped to have internal connections to the people that contracted out work.

Hence, at least for some a union would be a more viable alternative. Not that a union doesn't have its downsides.

That said, I agree with, "...if there was ever a time to be consumed by the entrepreneur spirit....".
 

  I disagree, the key ingredient WAS balls...I never said all you need is balls.  Like the saying goes, gonads have a specific purpose, and that purpose does not replace brains.  Sounds to me like the people you speak of also took the time to look into how the game was played, got their ducks in a row, and played the game.   But I understand how people can certainly be locked into a salary in certain jobs (those sweet golden handcuffs), what I have noticed is the talent/ability to be a successful entrepreneur often gets pushed by need more than desire.   I for see a time when there is going to be a need, rather than desire.

I guess instead of marrying for love, I should have included on my punch-list being a minority that would get my future company a place at the government hog-trough.  :)

But even with that, an entrepreneur I would never had been. My original professional goal was to build rockets to kill commies. Not something you are going to do in your garage as a start-up. Conversely, my hetro life-mate from graduate school went on to become an entrepreneur. One year, I watched him finance his company with 0% cash advances (life-time of balance) from about two-dozen credit cards. I don't have the stomach (or the balls) for that.

  I have a student, who was a civil engineer.  He got fired from a small town (and I mean small, like fewer than 1500 residents), decided he was done working for other people and started a company in his garage  (around something not really related at all to his professional training).  18 years later he sold his company for 80 million dollars, and this company was paying him over 3 million a year in earnings and salary when he did it.   He told me he never saw himself as an entrepreneur, he just sort of got fed up to a point and felt it was a need rather than something he wanted to be or do.  I suggest to one, not sell yourself short, two - do not be myopic in regards to what a business someone runs relative to their background, three - I am not speaking about this in personal terms.  If you do not feel comfortable going out and starting a business - no worries, just people often say they can not do things, until they have no choice but to do a thing.  As for the spouse, well there are A LOT of ways to make use of those sweet federal preferences for female or minority owned businesses, and many ways to get a business partner that is not necessarily your wife.  Though that last part being said, I am not so sure I would want to sail waters so murky they have that as a required ticket to admission.   

  I have a lot to say about funding any start up business from massive use of credit as well, but I will sum it up to say if you feel that is how you have to fund a business...do not start a business.

 Edited to add:  That however is just my personal stance on credit...how did it turn out for your buddy from grad school?  I have seen people have wild success with nutty leveraged starts like that (though IMO the emotional stress mashes a whole lot of them).   

  Edited to add one more thing:  I realize from us talking...you are a fucking rocket scientist.  Trust me, from watching lots of people have success in start ups, if you decided it was something you had to do, you would have whatever level of success you wanted to achieve.   Really smart people tend to do shy away more readily from starting businesses because one of the curses of that big brain is looking at the analysis around what can go wrong.  But again, this is not meant to be a personal discussion, I think if you like what you do and want to keep doing what you do for the people you do it for, more power to you.   I think there is nothing wrong with feeling fulfilled in a career,  hopefully you don't take my blunt comments as a criticism of your decisions or positions, as I do not intend for them to be such.   I am guilty of having a worldview that completely lacks nuance at times, but I was not attempting to apply all situations in my point of view, just what my own actions would be.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Ghostmaker on October 17, 2021, 09:23:06 AM
I have a Paizo account that I use to get old issues of Dragon and Dungeon magazine, as well as other PDF products that are only sold on the Paizo store. It would be really, really annoying if the company sinks.

Download now, while you still can
I haven’t bought all the magazine issues and don’t have the money to do so in the foreseeable future

I hear that Paizo is looking for writers to fill in for an emergency.
I wonder if they'd be desperate enough to let Pundit, Zak, and Venger take a crack at their stuff.

The screeching from the wokeists would be legendary, if nothing else :)
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: DocJones on October 17, 2021, 10:15:34 AM
Psst. All Hasro-branded games and toys are union-made.

Where do you get that idea? A lot of it's made in China, and China doesn't have unions.
You don't make anything in China without the involvement of the All-China Federation of Trade Unions.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: DocJones on October 17, 2021, 10:22:57 AM
If I owned Paizo and before they voted on the union...
I would put out that I was looking to sell the all the rights to Pathfinder and Starfinder to another company.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Chris24601 on October 17, 2021, 10:31:15 AM
UPDATE: UNITED PAIZO WORKERS SAYS TRANS RIGHTS

Why?

Because.. umm, uhh, WTF, hell if I know!


Anyway, they Transplain:
https://unitedpaizoworkers.org/2021/10/15/united-paizo-workers-says-trans-rights/
Some of you have noticed that in our announcements about the formation of United Paizo Workers (UPW), we haven’t gone into detail about the accusations toward Paizo leadership that have circulated over the past month. This isn’t because we don’t believe them or don’t take them seriously; instead, our focus has been on building momentum and sharing the positives the union will bring to our team.

That being said, we have had some folks ask where we stand on the allegations of transphobia at Paizo. We’d like to take a moment to state firmly that UPW is a pro-trans union, with a fair number of trans people on the roster, including in the organizing committee. We believe unionizing is the best way forward to protecting trans employees (and all employees) at Paizo, and we regard all accusations of transphobia with the utmost seriousness. No one is safe and represented until we all are, and that’s what forming a union is all about.

Thank you all so much for your tremendous outpouring of love and support over the past couple days. Stay strong and don’t split the party!

Baizuo is so fucked...
So, just what is a FAIR number? Because by general population you’re looking at one trans-person per 200 employees.

But of course that’s not what they mean by fair. They actually mean “replace any and all combinations of straight, white and male from the business.”
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: DocJones on October 17, 2021, 10:41:50 AM
So, just what is a FAIR number? Because by general population you’re looking at one trans-person per 200 employees.
I believe Paizo has 142 employees. 
So the need to fire all but one of their trans employees in order to maintain accurate demographics.
;-)
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: dkabq on October 17, 2021, 12:35:57 PM
So, just what is a FAIR number? Because by general population you’re looking at one trans-person per 200 employees.
I believe Paizo has 142 employees. 
So the need to fire all but one of their trans employees in order to maintain accurate demographics.
;-)

National demographics? Or demographics in the local area?
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Horace on October 17, 2021, 12:54:50 PM
So, just what is a FAIR number? Because by general population you’re looking at one trans-person per 200 employees.
I believe Paizo has 142 employees. 
So the need to fire all but one of their trans employees in order to maintain accurate demographics.
;-)
National demographics? Or demographics in the local area?

Netflix demographics.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: GeekyBugle on October 17, 2021, 02:52:41 PM
Psst. All Hasro-branded games and toys are union-made.

Where do you get that idea? A lot of it's made in China, and China doesn't have unions.
You don't make anything in China without the involvement of the All-China Federation of Trade Unions.

And we all know how great are the commies for the common worker.

You also don't make anything in China without profiting from slave labor.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: kreegan on October 22, 2021, 11:53:26 AM
Paizo announced that they've voluntarily recognized the union.

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6shum?Paizo-Recognizes-United-Paizo-Workers
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: SHARK on October 22, 2021, 02:03:22 PM
Greetings!

*Sigh* Well, Unions are simply poor at allowing any employee to be provided with appropriate reward for superior performance. For a kind of job and a kind of company that employs lots of different people doing different things and contributing in different ways, organizing into a Union is a terrible idea. Unions, depending on the type and industry--and how the Union itself is managed, operated, and staffed--can be very good, and helpful. At other times, they absolutely stifle individual progress and reward, and erode innovation and ambition, making everyone into generally passable worker-bees that do just enough work to not get fired, and seldom being eager to do much beyond that.

Good for Baizuo. I hope they drive the company into the ground.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: GeekyBugle on October 22, 2021, 02:06:53 PM
Greetings!

*Sigh* Well, Unions are simply poor at allowing any employee to be provided with appropriate reward for superior performance. For a kind of job and a kind of company that employs lots of different people doing different things and contributing in different ways, organizing into a Union is a terrible idea. Unions, depending on the type and industry--and how the Union itself is managed, operated, and staffed--can be very good, and helpful. At other times, they absolutely stifle individual progress and reward, and erode innovation and ambition, making everyone into generally passable worker-bees that do just enough work to not get fired, and seldom being eager to do much beyond that.

Good for Baizuo. I hope they drive the company into the ground.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

"Stop working so hard, you're making the others look bad"

Something the union representative told me on one of my early jobs.

And what's the point of working harder if you can't ask for a rise because your position has a salary top and they would need to rise the salary of everybody in your position?

At least in México Unions only work is to make the leader rich.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: SHARK on October 22, 2021, 02:14:15 PM
Greetings!

*Sigh* Well, Unions are simply poor at allowing any employee to be provided with appropriate reward for superior performance. For a kind of job and a kind of company that employs lots of different people doing different things and contributing in different ways, organizing into a Union is a terrible idea. Unions, depending on the type and industry--and how the Union itself is managed, operated, and staffed--can be very good, and helpful. At other times, they absolutely stifle individual progress and reward, and erode innovation and ambition, making everyone into generally passable worker-bees that do just enough work to not get fired, and seldom being eager to do much beyond that.

Good for Baizuo. I hope they drive the company into the ground.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

"Stop working so hard, you're making the others look bad"

Something the union representative told me on one of my early jobs.

And what's the point of working harder if you can't ask for a rise because your position has a salary top and they would need to rise the salary of everybody in your position?

At least in México Unions only work is to make the leader rich.

Greetings!

*LAUGHING* Oh, my God, Hermano! I was also working in a Union, and I had a co-worker say the EXACT SAME THING TO ME!

*Laughing* Amazing how compatible English and Spanish is! *Rolling* Ahh, geesus. Yeah, Iknow historically, Unions in some jobs have been very important at creating balance with management and genuinely forging better pay and working conditions for employees. That, however, is only in some industries, and was a long time ago.

Most Unions in most industries today are likewise corrupt and inefficient that don't actually do much for the worker, and much of the time they punish and discourage excellence, achievement and ambition, and instead promote laziness and bland do-nothing mediocrity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: GeekyBugle on October 22, 2021, 02:31:14 PM
Greetings!

*Sigh* Well, Unions are simply poor at allowing any employee to be provided with appropriate reward for superior performance. For a kind of job and a kind of company that employs lots of different people doing different things and contributing in different ways, organizing into a Union is a terrible idea. Unions, depending on the type and industry--and how the Union itself is managed, operated, and staffed--can be very good, and helpful. At other times, they absolutely stifle individual progress and reward, and erode innovation and ambition, making everyone into generally passable worker-bees that do just enough work to not get fired, and seldom being eager to do much beyond that.

Good for Baizuo. I hope they drive the company into the ground.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

"Stop working so hard, you're making the others look bad"

Something the union representative told me on one of my early jobs.

And what's the point of working harder if you can't ask for a rise because your position has a salary top and they would need to rise the salary of everybody in your position?

At least in México Unions only work is to make the leader rich.

Greetings!

*LAUGHING* Oh, my God, Hermano! I was also working in a Union, and I had a co-worker say the EXACT SAME THING TO ME!

*Laughing* Amazing how compatible English and Spanish is! *Rolling* Ahh, geesus. Yeah, Iknow historically, Unions in some jobs have been very important at creating balance with management and genuinely forging better pay and working conditions for employees. That, however, is only in some industries, and was a long time ago.

Most Unions in most industries today are likewise corrupt and inefficient that don't actually do much for the worker, and much of the time they punish and discourage excellence, achievement and ambition, and instead promote laziness and bland do-nothing mediocrity.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So the Baizuo Union will change nothing in their products? Or it will make them even worst?
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Jaeger on October 22, 2021, 03:13:05 PM
UPDATE:  Ninja'd by Kreegan!

Dude!
Pazio Baizuo announced that they've voluntarily recognized the union.

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6shum?Paizo-Recognizes-United-Paizo-Workers


For those of you who refuse to click a link on anything Baizuo related:

Baizuo is pleased to announce it has voluntarily recognized the United Baizuo Workers union, which is affiliated with the Communications Workers of America (CWA).

“We look forward to working with the union to continue and expand our efforts to make Baizuo a better place to work and to ensure that Pathfinder and Starfinder products continue to exceed gamer expectations for many years to come,” said Jeff Alvarez, President of Baizuo.

The next steps will involve the United Baizuo Workers (UPW) union electing their bargaining representatives and then meeting with Baizuo management to negotiate terms for a collective bargaining agreement. We expect this process to take some time, but we are committed to the effort and hope to settle a contract in due course. Until an agreement is reached, the Baizuo staff continues to focus on creating amazing Pathfinder and Starfinder products.

Baizuo has always been about creating awesome games, and we look forward to the changes that unionization will bring to the company. Please join us on this journey by following the UPW on Twitter and stay tuned for future updates!

Baizuo is now beyond screwed...

The details of the collective bargaining agreement will be what determines how fast the Baizuo ship sinks...

I expect wonderful shenanigans in the coming years!


Something to keep in mind going forward when seeing the results of Baizuo's unionization with SJW commies:

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/396076.php
Ethan Van Sciver did a great podcast about what happens when you hire SJW political extremists in your company.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjX8OjRBfEc&t=1032s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjX8OjRBfEc&t=1032s)

Here are some of the main points, with my own elaborations included.

1. Whatever your company used to be in the business of making, that is no longer your primary business. SJWs don’t care about the widgets you’re making. They take over your company and direct it to produce political extremist propaganda as its main product. Your company will only be permitted to produce widgets to the extent that widget-production helps fund your business’ new primary mission of producing propaganda and repression.

If your widget production interferes with the production of politically extremist propaganda, they will sabotage your widget output.

2. SJWs always seek to either curry favor with the human resources and diversity enforcement departments of a company, or, better yet, infest and take over the these departments of a company.

Companies actually allow this because they put most of their diversity hires into human resources and diversity enforcement, thinking that’s the way to appease SJWs, and that’s where these largely-unskilled, largely mentally-ill incompetents can do the least harm.

That’s 100% wrong.

If they were put in any other department — any department charged with producing things of value– their toxicity and dysfunction would cause the company to fire them for their malignance. They subtract value; they do not add to it.

But these corporations keep assigning them to the very departments were toxicity and dysfunction are rewarded. And this, these toxic, dysfunctional people are allowed to rise and exert authority over the previously healthy and productive parts of the company.

3. SJW “employees” will ultimately invert the boss-employee relationship, making themselves the bosses who tell the on-paper CEO and president what they’ll be doing now. They achieve this through socio-political blackmail and threats to destroy the company through a coordinated reputational damage operation.

We see this all the time. The SJW extremists are increasingly brazen about asserting that they, not the CEO or president or shareholders, run Bartertown.

So it looks like it's time to stock up on the popcorn kids; because Baizuo is going for a ride!

Right now, there is only one thing left for us to do:

(https://i.imgur.com/pcdC8Br.gif)
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Steven Mitchell on October 22, 2021, 03:21:55 PM
Well, historically, the most successful* union trajectory goes something like this: 

1. Company is seriously taking advantage of employees.
2. Union forms because strength in numbers.
3. Company bargained into being more fair.
4. Union has achieved its purpose but does not, of course, disband.
5. Union has to find other things--not necessarily important or even relevant or even useful--to agitate about.
6. Left unchecked, this either turns into a corrupt crime ring or a festering cancer.  (If you had to pick your poison and had a brain, you'd pick crime ring every time, which says something about how bad the cancer is.)

With this particular example, I'm most curious about step 1.  And I don't see how "crime ring" is going to be an out in this case, given the amount of brains and money involved.  So festering cancer it is!

*Particularly unsuccessful ones skip steps or fly through them so fast if you blink, you miss it.  Successful companies that have avoided step 6 (thus far) have unions wandering aimlessly around in the woods of step 5.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Shrieking Banshee on October 22, 2021, 03:28:33 PM
I can’t help but pity the heads of Paizo. Competition is good. An underdog was king for a short while.

Let it be a lesson to us all: do not appease parasites.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Lynn on October 22, 2021, 06:30:34 PM
Eric Tenkar over on Tenkar's Tavern posted also that some of those 'freelancers' working for Paizo that held back work include several full time employees that also do extra work for more money.

Kind of makes me wonder if they've been doing the right thing taxwise or maybe Washington state should be looking into it.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Shasarak on October 22, 2021, 07:27:24 PM
Kind of makes me wonder if they've been doing the right thing taxwise or maybe Washington state should be looking into it.

How much tax do you think you are going to be able to get?

Its not Soros or Musk freelancing RPG products.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Bunch on October 22, 2021, 09:42:27 PM
Eric Tenkar over on Tenkar's Tavern posted also that some of those 'freelancers' working for Paizo that held back work include several full time employees that also do extra work for more money.

Kind of makes me wonder if they've been doing the right thing taxwise or maybe Washington state should be looking into it.

Washington State has no income tax so it would just be do they have a business license, do they make enough to file a return and what B&O tax they owe if any.  Doubtful the State is going to care.  Just like it's unlikely whatever city they live in is going to check in on them.  All that may change if work from home becomes a more permanent thing.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Mistwell on October 22, 2021, 10:06:28 PM
  Oh I get it, they moved their toy production to only 50 percent in china to move more production to the union heavy nations of India and Vietnam....https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/23/hasbro-to-cut-china-production-of-its-toys-looks-to-india-and-vietnam.html

   Union made, GTFO

Counter-evidence. The plot thickens.

Might it be that piece-parts are made in China, and the final products (Hasbro branded games and toys) are assembled in the US?

I think things branded as Hasbro are made in the US, and things not branded as Hasbro but sold by them are made outside the US.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Mistwell on October 22, 2021, 10:08:40 PM
Eric Tenkar over on Tenkar's Tavern posted also that some of those 'freelancers' working for Paizo that held back work include several full time employees that also do extra work for more money.

Kind of makes me wonder if they've been doing the right thing taxwise or maybe Washington state should be looking into it.

Uh, yeah. When your employee does "extra work" we call that overtime. And it's definitely supposed to include Medicare, Social Security, etc..
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Bunch on October 22, 2021, 10:49:42 PM
Eric Tenkar over on Tenkar's Tavern posted also that some of those 'freelancers' working for Paizo that held back work include several full time employees that also do extra work for more money.

Kind of makes me wonder if they've been doing the right thing taxwise or maybe Washington state should be looking into it.

Uh, yeah. When your employee does "extra work" we call that overtime. And it's definitely supposed to include Medicare, Social Security, etc..

That makes for a nice soundbite but it might not be true.  I couldn't find a US answer but it appears courts in Germany allow multiple employment contracts with the same employer.
https://www.globalworkplaceinsider.com/2017/11/working-as-a-freelancer-and-as-an-employee-for-the-same-company/
I suspect the same thing is true in the US.  Both parties would have to treat Freelance work differently than FTE work. 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Snowman0147 on October 23, 2021, 12:42:39 AM
Guess the artist will have to find a new company.  That is the only bad thing about it.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Lynn on October 23, 2021, 01:40:18 AM
Washington State has no income tax so it would just be do they have a business license, do they make enough to file a return and what B&O tax they owe if any.  Doubtful the State is going to care.  Just like it's unlikely whatever city they live in is going to check in on them.  All that may change if work from home becomes a more permanent thing.

Not sure if there is a present one, but a new payroll tax goes into effect in January, 2022.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Mistwell on October 23, 2021, 01:19:39 PM
Eric Tenkar over on Tenkar's Tavern posted also that some of those 'freelancers' working for Paizo that held back work include several full time employees that also do extra work for more money.

Kind of makes me wonder if they've been doing the right thing taxwise or maybe Washington state should be looking into it.

Uh, yeah. When your employee does "extra work" we call that overtime. And it's definitely supposed to include Medicare, Social Security, etc..

That makes for a nice soundbite but it might not be true.  I couldn't find a US answer but it appears courts in Germany allow multiple employment contracts with the same employer.
https://www.globalworkplaceinsider.com/2017/11/working-as-a-freelancer-and-as-an-employee-for-the-same-company/
I suspect the same thing is true in the US.  Both parties would have to treat Freelance work differently than FTE work.

The same thing is not true in the US. To be considered an independent contractor you must meet certain criteria. The law assumes you are by default an employee unless you can prove you meet the criteria. IF you are an employee already, then by definition you can not meet the independent contractor criteria since too many elements of that criteria would be automatically answered "no".

The reason we have these laws (which certainly differ in other nations) is primarily tax based. Employees are treated very differently than independent contractors. Employers must pay for workers compensation insurance for an employee but not for an independent contractor who are supposed to carry their own workers compensation insurance. Employees must contribute to the social security and medicare tax accounts of employees but not of independent contractors. There are a variety of other reporting and posting requirements for employees but not independent contractors. There are a huge number of labor regulations which kick in only when a company reaches a certain threshold of employees (like "Employers with 50 or more employees"). Minimum wage and hour laws apply to employees but not independent contractors who can be paid on a per-project basis. Etc.. For a large variety of reasons employers would prefer to count someone as an independent contractor rather than an employee.

The huge fight going on in California right now is over California mandating even Uber and Lyft drivers be counted as employees rather than independent contracts, and anyone who writes more than a few times a year for an internet source must be counted as an employee rather than an independent contractor.

So yeah, if someone is paying an employee as also an independent contractor on the side, it's very likely something shady is going on. It's very likely some workers compensation, medicare tax, and social security tax is being avoided. And it's very likely some wage and hour laws are being skirted for "projects" work. Probably if their state's Attorney General office (or labor office) took a hard look at that company, they'd be heavily fined and owe some back pay to that person for unpaid overtime (likely with a penalty).
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Almost_Useless on October 23, 2021, 01:41:27 PM
Any bets on how long it will take to get our first union embezzlement story?
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Zelen on October 23, 2021, 04:22:03 PM
Any bets on how long it will take to get our first union embezzlement story?

Prediction: Jessica Price caught taking 10x her salary in funds from Baizuo union. Price responds by emphasizing she was only withdrawing funds to account for herself and 9 other "alters" she claims cohabit within her body.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Jaeger on October 23, 2021, 05:03:28 PM
Eric Tenkar over on Tenkar's Tavern posted also that some of those 'freelancers' working for Paizo that held back work include several full time employees that also do extra work for more money.

Kind of makes me wonder if they've been doing the right thing taxwise or maybe Washington state should be looking into it.

Tenkar must be referring to this article:
https://www.wired.com/story/tabletop-rpg-workers-say-their-jobs-are-no-fantasy/

The low salaries at Paizo led a number of employees to take freelance jobs from the company, too, just to make ends meet. “One of the jokes about Paizo is that the real benefit is first pick of all the freelance contracts,” says Crystal Frasier, who made less than $40,000 when she left in 2018 after nine years at the company. “You couldn't really afford to work there if you weren't going home after work and writing 5,000 to 10,000 words a week freelance, just to make rent.” During his first year at the company, says Jason Tondro, a senior developer at Paizo, “if I didn’t get freelance gigs, I didn’t have a food budget.”

IMHO - Those employee's taking additional "freelance" jobs should have been getting overtime pay...

Was Baizuo was exploiting a work-law loophole, or were they being shady? IMHO it's a coin flip.

Either way, from other sources it seems that Baizuo's business model is built on its current practices.

Now having put themselves in a position to actually pay people to make Seattle rent...

I think it is a safe prediction that at a minimum we will see Baizuo begin to cut back on both its number of employee's, and its publishing schedule in the years to come.

Or its commie union kills it. Whichever comes first...
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: SHARK on October 23, 2021, 05:48:44 PM
Greetings!

Yes, well, considering that $20 dollars/per hour equals $40K per year, I'm not sure what she was expecting. Certainly, after working there for 9 years, I would want more money too, but there are *LOTS* of companies and businesses that work on the basis of giving employees a 50-cent or a dollar an hour raise per year, and sometimes not even that. Discussions of minimum wage aside, where someone can literally shovel French Fries and not do much else and make $13 to $15 dollars per hour, she really does need to realize that many businesses, at least 50% of every business and industry in America--pays $20 dollars an hour or less. The median income of America is about 40K per year, so half of the population--regardless of company or industry--makes somewhere around $20 dollars or less an hour.

Skilled sales people, skilled tradesmen, experienced teachers--yeah, they make typically $25 to $40 dollars per hour. Jobs that absolutely require genuine skills, talent, an often particular training and education, in the case of degrees usually 5 years of formal education, and in the case of apprenticeships in various trades, also about 5 years of continuous training an skill development.

How much is some flunkie sitting at a computer doing layout and other minutia supposed to make? I can't say I'm surprised that Baizuo is paying most of their employees $20 dollars or less an hour. To remain profitable, that sounds about right. The cost of real estate, housing, rent, and mortgages in the greater Seattle area is irrelevant. None of that is Baizuo's business, or under their control. Their own company's expenses and profit margins are what is under their control, and is their responsibility. They are not required to make it so every fucking employee at their company can live a nice, sweet, cushy fucking lifestyle. That's the prevailing pay-scale for that kind of work. You don't like it? Go and do something else. You don't like the sky-fucking high costs of rent and mortgages in fucking Seattle? Pack your shit and fucking move somewhere else, geesus. The entitlement and absolute helplessness of these fucking people is insane.

In the HMO industry, most basic employees used to start at about $13 dollars per hour or so, with a college degree preferred, and even expected, but not always absolutely required. That was to do basic data-entry work in a computer cubicle, occasionally talking on the phone, and doing other "light administrative tasks" as a team member of the Claims Adjustment department. I know many, many corporations in business work on a similar scale, with a similar set of assumptions and work conditions. Oh, and the HMO companies I am quite familiar with, also had *FAR MORE* employees than fucking Baizuo. They had hundreds if not a thousand or more employees just at office campuses in Orange County, California. Companies such as Aetna, Pacific Care, and now United Health, in Cypress, California, for example. Big companies, that make hundreds of millions of dollars,--if not more--and provide absolutely essential services to the health care industry. California has never been an inexpensive place to live, and yet, the wage scale has been comparable and nationally competitive for the knowledge and skill base expected from such employees.

But cubicle monkees at Baizuo think that they deserve more money or comparable money to basic health-insurance workers, or even more, like professional sales, teachers, or tradesmen.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: DM_Curt on October 23, 2021, 06:41:23 PM
Is there a reason that Baizou, or Paizo or Pizza-Pie has to locate in Seattle, paying City of Seattle taxes and prices?  They're only a few dozen people in an office, with the majority of their staff able to telecommute, post-Covid.
They don't need rail access, port access or super-heavy industry. They could rent generic office space somewhere cheaper, a little further out from Seattle. Maybe as far south on I-5 as Vancouver, which would definitely be cheaper.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: HappyDaze on October 23, 2021, 06:53:10 PM
They could be hoping that their workers take advantage of the plethora of 0-cost housing options in the Seattle area.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: DM_Curt on October 23, 2021, 07:03:41 PM
Vaccination rates must be pretty high. There's needles all over the place.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Jaeger on October 23, 2021, 09:00:51 PM
Is there a reason that Baizou, or Paizo or Pizza-Pie has to locate in Seattle, paying City of Seattle taxes and prices?  They're only a few dozen people in an office, with the majority of their staff able to telecommute, post-Covid.
They don't need rail access, port access or super-heavy industry. They could rent generic office space somewhere cheaper, a little further out from Seattle. Maybe as far south on I-5 as Vancouver, which would definitely be cheaper.


But then the Baizuo Ceo's wouldn't have that trendy Seattle address...



...
In the HMO industry, most basic employees used to start at about $13 dollars per hour or so, with a college degree preferred, and even expected,...the HMO companies I am quite familiar with, also had *FAR MORE* employees than fucking Baizuo. They had hundreds if not a thousand or more employees just at office campuses in Orange County, California. Companies such as Aetna, Pacific Care, and now United Health, in Cypress, California, for example. Big companies, that make hundreds of millions of dollars,--if not more--

In my experience companies pay as low as they do in the overwhelming majority of cases: Simply because they can.

A big problem with even small companies like Baizuo is this:

CEO pay has skyrocketed 1,322% since 1978:
https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-in-2020/

Which is compounded by this:

For most U.S. workers, real wages have barely budged in decades:
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

Of course companies will come back with the line that: "The economics of the industry prevent us from...."

To which I retort: "Show me the books then."

Which is virtually without exception followed by: ~insert sound of crickets chirping here~

Because they are a pack of greedy fucking liars.

This state of affairs was brought about over time, and has a variety of causes: Our out of control legal and illegal immigration continually depressing wages in the labor market, the outrageous inflationary spending of the government, outsourcing, our stupid 'free trade' policies, leaving the bretton woods agreement, etc,.

Trump was trying to address some of those issues, but the solution requires an array of policy changes - no one magic button will fix this.

The effects of what I call the: "Harvard business school of the Mammon Economics Death Cult" has been devastating to the US working class.

The contemptable greed of modern Ceo's, and our ruling Elites is breathtaking*. They are wholly devoid of any sense of Noblesse Oblige, Honor, or basic Morality when interacting to those they consider beneath them. Which is basically everyone not them.


How this relates to Baizuo's situation:

RPGs have always been a niche interest at best. RPGs as a commercial interest are, and have always been, a small business enterprise at best. D&D is the outlier.
Small business enterprises can be solid and successful for decades, given sound management, and this remains true today.

Most RPG companies are not soundly managed. There is a laundry list of notable game companies that have come and gone...

Baizuo is not soundly managed; it is set up to run like a big dividend making pubic shareholder mammon corporation like WotC:

Pathfinder 2 has been out for little over two years, and over that time they've released a total of three bestiaries, a Gamemaster's Guide telling you how to fiddle with their game, and three major rule expansions ... featuring a total of 8 additional classes. And that's in addition to the lore stuff they've done for Golarion (8 more books of varying sizes), and a bazillion different accessories.

Baizuo has more full time employee's than WotC's D&D division, puts out four times the physical product of D&D per year, and does not even do close to D&D 5e sales levels.

This is a RPG business model that can only be sustained by the prolific use of wage-slaves. Baizuo is in thrall to the SJW's, is headquartered in an SJW stronghold, and thus is being subjected to a coup by the more fanatical SJW's in the company.

Once Baizuo stopped being the number one RPG company when 5e came out, their collapse was economically inevitable. The SJW commie union is just speeding things along.




* And before the predictable 'Because Capitalism!' post appears: I highly suggest you learn some actual economic history. Because Socialist countries took one look at the moral abuses that occur in supposed 'capitalist' countries, and said:
"Hold my Beer..."
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Aglondir on October 23, 2021, 11:51:40 PM
Is there a reason that Baizou, or Paizo or Pizza-Pie has to locate in Seattle, paying City of Seattle taxes and prices?  They're only a few dozen people in an office, with the majority of their staff able to telecommute, post-Covid.
They don't need rail access, port access or super-heavy industry. They could rent generic office space somewhere cheaper, a little further out from Seattle. Maybe as far south on I-5 as Vancouver, which would definitely be cheaper.

By this time next year paizo will be out of Seattle, with a minimal staff, most of the writers freelancers.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: RandyB on October 24, 2021, 09:36:08 AM
Another observed behavior of unions. Unions seek to grow, by expanding their scope if necessary. This won't stop with Baizuo.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Bunch on October 24, 2021, 10:00:07 AM
Paizo isn't in Seattle. It's in Redmond. 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Zalman on October 24, 2021, 10:20:21 AM
Eric Tenkar over on Tenkar's Tavern posted also that some of those 'freelancers' working for Paizo that held back work include several full time employees that also do extra work for more money.

Kind of makes me wonder if they've been doing the right thing taxwise or maybe Washington state should be looking into it.

Washington State has no income tax so it would just be do they have a business license, do they make enough to file a return and what B&O tax they owe if any.  Doubtful the State is going to care.  Just like it's unlikely whatever city they live in is going to check in on them.  All that may change if work from home becomes a more permanent thing.

As far as requirements for the contractors/employees goes, that's all well and good. However, it's also Paizo possibly breaking both state and federal law here. WA might care about the missing L&I (their version of unemployment insurance), and the IRS certainly cares about social security and medicare getting paid -- and by whom.

Whether or not the IRS allows you to classify extra work done by a current employee as "contract" or not depends on the nature of the work and the work relationship. Which party takes investment risk? Which party directs the work on a day-to-day basis? Does the "contractor" sit in on regular company meetings and generally participate as an employee while engaged in the work? Etcetera, all evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

If the "contract" work appears to be nothing more than an extension of your standard employee duties, that's a no-no at the federal level in the U.S.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Lynn on October 24, 2021, 02:03:42 PM
Eric Tenkar over on Tenkar's Tavern posted also that some of those 'freelancers' working for Paizo that held back work include several full time employees that also do extra work for more money.

Kind of makes me wonder if they've been doing the right thing taxwise or maybe Washington state should be looking into it.

Washington State has no income tax so it would just be do they have a business license, do they make enough to file a return and what B&O tax they owe if any.  Doubtful the State is going to care.  Just like it's unlikely whatever city they live in is going to check in on them.  All that may change if work from home becomes a more permanent thing.

As far as requirements for the contractors/employees goes, that's all well and good. However, it's also Paizo possibly breaking both state and federal law here. WA might care about the missing L&I (their version of unemployment insurance), and the IRS certainly cares about social security and medicare getting paid -- and by whom.

Whether or not the IRS allows you to classify extra work done by a current employee as "contract" or not depends on the nature of the work and the work relationship. Which party takes investment risk? Which party directs the work on a day-to-day basis? Does the "contractor" sit in on regular company meetings and generally participate as an employee while engaged in the work? Etcetera, all evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

If the "contract" work appears to be nothing more than an extension of your standard employee duties, that's a no-no at the federal level in the U.S.

I haven't made WA state employment law a point of study, however I suspect that is exactly the problem, and that Paizo would find itself in hot water.

Tech companies in Washington have been investigated previously on who can be counted as a contractor. Years ago, Microsoft used to hire 'contractors' on effectively ongoing contracts in which they were given certain enough managerial input. As a result, Microsoft ended up hiring a bunch of contractors full time and on the other end, taking away the managerial input and requiring 'time out' periods in which contractors couldn't work for Microsoft.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: DM_Curt on October 24, 2021, 02:47:08 PM
Paizo isn't in Seattle. It's in Redmond.
Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, that's even worse.

Redmond,Wa. Median apartment rent: $2326
Seattle, WA. $2169
Vancouver, WA. $1543 (Also on I-5, with more than enough infrastructure for their needs)
Source: Rentcafe.com
I didn't check Tacoma or Olympia, but my point for this tangent is that "My cost of living!" Is sort of a self-inflicted wound. Apartment rent and commercial office rent probably follow similar patterns if cost by location. So, Paizo is paying more than they had to (1), and sort-of-forcing (2) employees  to also do so.
This is probably all moot anyway. Paizo has bigger problems now, and is probably not long for this world, unless WotC craps the bed in 2024 with the 5.5e.




(1) Although, if anything, commercial office rent should be going down in Washington overall, as companies see how well telecomming works and can downsize their physical locations.
(2) I chose a 30 minute commute over living in an expensive city whose QoL was rapidly deteriorating. It's an option.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Bunch on October 24, 2021, 05:46:30 PM
Redmond seems an odd choice.  Competing with Microsoft employees for housing, goods and services is not a great idea for a non tech company. 

Vancouver though is a bit of comparing an apple to an orange.  Too far away and the nearest big city is Portland so you're not trading up in pretty much any corporate aspect. 

There is value to being in the Seattle-Bellevue area as there is a large pool of talent.  How necessary that is can be debated but Paizo has decided they want folks to come back into the office so any challenges that brings are self inflicted. 

I'm sort of surprised they still maintain their own store instead of outsourcing to OBS. 

Union or no union wages and benefits were going to go up so I don't see this as a huge additional issue for paizo unless the union is absolutely crazy optimistic/restrictive to business practices.  Most of what I see them asking for is less arbitrary firing and more money.  I think those were going to happen just due to the overall economic situation so the union is sort of a no op. 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Zalman on October 24, 2021, 06:19:04 PM
There is value to being in the Seattle-Bellevue area as there is a large pool of talent.

Which is an odd value for Paizo to champion, given that apparently most of their actual talent is freelance.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Lynn on October 24, 2021, 06:41:38 PM
Paizo isn't in Seattle. It's in Redmond.
Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, that's even worse.

Redmond,Wa. Median apartment rent: $2326
Seattle, WA. $2169
Vancouver, WA. $1543 (Also on I-5, with more than enough infrastructure for their needs)
Source: Rentcafe.com
I didn't check Tacoma or Olympia, but my point for this tangent is that "My cost of living!" Is sort of a self-inflicted wound. Apartment rent and commercial office rent probably follow similar patterns if cost by location. So, Paizo is paying more than they had to (1), and sort-of-forcing (2) employees  to also do so.
This is probably all moot anyway. Paizo has bigger problems now, and is probably not long for this world, unless WotC craps the bed in 2024 with the 5.5e.
(1) Although, if anything, commercial office rent should be going down in Washington overall, as companies see how well telecomming works and can downsize their physical locations.
(2) I chose a 30 minute commute over living in an expensive city whose QoL was rapidly deteriorating. It's an option.

I see no benefit for them to stay in the Seattle area. The Vancouver area would allow them the the benefit of being across the river from Portland (and the Portland airport is close by), but also draw from many miles around the Vancouver area in Washington for cheaper rent for employees.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Zelen on October 24, 2021, 06:50:10 PM
I see no real reason why Paizo shouldn't be a fully virtual company. Thought this for a long time. Trying to run a traditional company model makes no sense when you can easily share & collaborate online. I believe the only reason this model has clung on for so long is precisely because the TTRPG industry is so insular and clique-oriented. That's not going to work out for much longer.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Jaeger on October 24, 2021, 07:14:23 PM
...

I see no benefit for them to stay in the Seattle area.

There is no reason for any RPG company to be in any expensive to live state in the US.

RPG's can literally be done anywhere. Not going where the cost is cheaper is silly. - But people like fashionable and trendy addresses.


I see no real reason why Paizo shouldn't be a fully virtual company. ...

As someone who works from home but used to do the same job in an office, there are communication and proximity advantages to having people at an office.

But Baizuo's office space should be much smaller, with far fewer employees than it has. Pundit was right. PF2 has not grabbed enough players back from 5e, and it has split its own fanbase on top of it.

Baizuo cannot continue to function like they are WotC's equals. Something will give.

Recognizing their commie union is only the first step on a longer downward journey.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Bunch on October 24, 2021, 07:38:21 PM
I agree they should be a virtual company at this point.  However they don't so if they decide to be in person then they have to be where the talent is and for the 30 odd people they want that doesn't surprise me it's in the greater Seattle area.  Lots of RPG professionals in that area.  But it could be relatively close to Seattle and still find cheaper everything.  Renton/Tukwilla is close enough, close the warehouses, airport and much more affordable. 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Hakdov on October 24, 2021, 08:19:51 PM
There is no reason for any RPG company to be in any expensive to live state in the US.

There's no reason for any of the software companies to be in expensive cities either.  I've been doing my government programming job from home for 19 months now. 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Bunch on October 24, 2021, 08:48:31 PM
The truth is for a very long time they were and maybe still are very bad at managing across different floors let alone across campus or state lines.   Far to much is decided in hallway meetings and lunch. 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Svenhelgrim on October 24, 2021, 11:38:16 PM
If they work from home, they will have to clean their own carpets. 
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: SHARK on October 25, 2021, 12:55:40 AM
Greetings!

I'm always boggled by how companies like Baizuo somehow even manage to tolerate all of these wacked out, mentally-ill social misfits that have huge senses of entitlement and are trainwrecks full of attitude problems.

I have worked for and have been familiar with so many companies that, yeah, you don't get with the program, cop some kind of fucking attitude with fellow employees or your supervisors or managers, and you are fucking *gone*. In a blink, that fast. You collect you final check in a few days, and welcome to being fucking unemployed.

There's no lawyers to save you, no legal BS, no options for you. You are FIRED because you have a fucking attitude problem, can't get along well with fellow employees, or have an uncooperative, argumentative, or insubordinate attitude towards management.

I don't know how these fucking slugs manage to stay employed. I can think of many companies where they wouldn't make it past collecting one paycheck.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Bunch on October 25, 2021, 02:04:12 AM
I don't get the sense the issue was with fellow employees though. It seemed the rift was more with management.  When there's an excess of labor then the situation and scenarios Shark describes are the likely outcome.  As labor becomes the more scarce resource then management needs to adjust to the situation.  Either need less employees and screen to find the most compliant which may not meet the talent needs or be more active in listening and acting on the employee requests. 

This was already happening in Tech. Most of us have hear of the on campus chefs, laundry, personal assistants available at a top tech company like Google, Apple, etc.  They were competing for a limit few workers that they felt they absolutely had to have and extra costs would be earned back.   That's where we are getting with the lower end of the labor market.  It's going to mean some inflation and potentially killing some low margin businesses that don't adapt to needing less labor.  But those that survive are likely to see a rise in the number of people purchasing their products.   The one thing I'm not sure is will we see a rise in productivity to accompany the rise in wages.   
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Zalman on October 25, 2021, 10:55:19 AM
I don't get the sense the issue was with fellow employees though. It seemed the rift was more with management.

In a truly functional company, managers are viewed as "fellow employees". Either way, there's not much difference to upper management, to whom everyone but the C-suite folks is an "employee".

Quote from: Bunch

This was already happening in Tech. Most of us have hear of the on campus chefs, laundry, personal assistants available at a top tech company like Google, Apple, etc.  They were competing for a limit few workers that they felt they absolutely had to have and extra costs would be earned back.

Interesting take. Most tech folks I know (having been in the business a few decades now) see it differently: those amenities are not designed to attract employees but rather to keep them on campus, by ensuring every life-need is covered. Employees that stay on site work more.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: Lynn on October 25, 2021, 11:44:45 AM
Interesting take. Most tech folks I know (having been in the business a few decades now) see it differently: those amenities are not designed to attract employees but rather to keep them on campus, by ensuring every life-need is covered. Employees that stay on site work more.
That's right. Besides, if you are the sort to get hired at the most highly desired employers, they rarely are going to offer something that is truly unique.

In some cases, the same amenities are used to conduct business. When I worked for Qualcomm in the later 90s, there was a complete bar. If you wanted to have a drink with a client and it wasn't entirely after work hours, you could take that client down to the bar.
Title: Re: BAIZUO (pazio) Going Union! The beginning of the end!?
Post by: gawdsofwar on October 25, 2021, 07:47:01 PM
Is there a reason that Baizou, or Paizo or Pizza-Pie has to locate in Seattle, paying City of Seattle taxes and prices?  They're only a few dozen people in an office, with the majority of their staff able to telecommute, post-Covid.
They don't need rail access, port access or super-heavy industry. They could rent generic office space somewhere cheaper, a little further out from Seattle. Maybe as far south on I-5 as Vancouver, which would definitely be cheaper.

Actually, there is a reason, but not a particularly good one (anymore).  Paizo was started by Dungeon/Dragon magazine staff members who took on publishing those magazines* as a separate company after Wizards bought out TSR.  At that point, the management lived in the area so it made sense (at the time) for them to stay, for no other reason than to keep in close contact w/ their partners at Wizards.
*And, giving credit where it's due, they did a damn fine job of it

That said, there's no reason that, given advances in telecommunications, they couldn't have relocated to a city with a much lower cost of living ages ago.