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Author Topic: Motivation and Goals  (Read 1760 times)

Ratman_tf

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Re: Motivation and Goals
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2022, 04:15:24 AM »
Sometimes I wonder if we're not just culturally broken people who just doesn't have what it takes to play RPGs anymore.

I remember seeing some reactions/reviews to Village of Hommlet (sans temple) with one of the criticisms being that there doesn't seem to be any adventure there. The only real thing to do is explore the moathouse, and there's no reason given as to why anyone would go there.

Of course back in the day, we never really needed a reason. Oh, there's a dungeon there? Cool. Let's go explore it!

This is fine for "Beer & Pretzles" rpging, and for some groups, it's all they need. But as D&D evolved from a mini wargame to a dungeon funhouse to more storylike, motivations became more important.

But, but, I've often created a character with no motivations. Especially if I don't understand the setting all that well. My first Starfinder character was/is a Vesk Soldier, and I had a vague idea of what he was like from the racial description of Vesk, but really was more into exploring the character as we went, instead of locking myself into any ideas at the start.
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Tod13

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Re: Motivation and Goals
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2022, 11:22:35 AM »
I think it is more that we are fractionalized into ways to play. This site is definitely in favor of sandboxes and no planned plot/story. Other sites tend to run modules with nothing hooking them together. Each method of play seems to see the other way as broken.

When you think it is up to the player to add plot and direction to the story and a player doesn't or can't do that, you tend to think the player is broken. When in actually, he just has a different way he likes to pretend to be an elf.

The reason I brought up things I experienced in my childhood was to point out that it makes just going out and exploring seem like a perfectly natural thing in an RPG. I didn't make any statements as to whether or not I prefer a sandbox. That's not something that's relevant to what I was talking about. Even if that's not my preferred way to play, at least I understand it.

That was generic "you", not you personally.

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It comes down, I think, again to stuff we were discussing 4-5 years ago here, where everyone at the table has to have the same expectation -- in whatever direction -- before you start playing.

There are a number of reasons I never liked that idea. One in particular that stands out in my mind has to do with the state of RPGs in the 90's. There's a reason Whitewolf kicked D&D's ass in the 90's. And only part of it is Vampire being something fresh and edgy. A huge part, if not the bigger part of it is D&D just sucked ass in that era. And part of why that was is they were losing share to Magic: the Gathering. And one reason Magic: the Gathering kicked D&D's ass is because you can start and wrap up a game in a half hour. It's great for the college crowd. You could easily play a hand or two between classes.

It was a reminder that a roughly 4-hour standard RPG session really is a lot to ask. We're hobbyists, so we're down for it. For players on the margin, though, it's tough as it is. Add a session zero of singing kumbaya and discussing each others feelings and preferences, it might work for some players. It might work without a downside for hobbyists. But for players on the margin? I think for every one player you lose after experiencing a very uncomfortable table flip moment, you lose 5 gamers on the margin by raising the barrier to entry.

LOL. I did not advocate a four hour session zero discussion. It is simple. Talk to each other. An email beforehand asking "do you want a sandbox where the players provide direction or where the GM provides a module to run" and "do you want to play gritty death at every turn or a gonzo adventure with failure rather than death" solves 90% of people's issues with their groups. Or simply list how you're going to be running the table when creating the group. (Something I've noticed lacking in almost all the LFG/LFP posts I've been going through for VTT games.) Otherwise, you (general and specific) are assuming everyone wants what you want, which is not true.

rytrasmi

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Re: Motivation and Goals
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2022, 07:32:20 PM »
Ideally, motivation is part of character creation, and it is something that is a drive that is never complete, but it does inspire goals that can be completed. If a character lacks motivation, the character is not an adventurer. This was far more eloquently covered by the AngryGM.
..
Some systems do included drives to choose from, such is the list in Ashen Stars, but that list is somewhat setting centric. Another possible resource is AngryGM's Memo to Players #2, relevant part quoted below.
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That's some good advice. I will be trying the prompt idea for sure.

Sandboxes are better with toys.
I remember playing Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, and there is a sailing ship in the module. (Spoilers!) Our group took that ship after the module and went on a bunch of sailing adventures. I put stuff in adventures that just seems neat and see what the players make of it. Sometimes it generates more adventures, sometimes they're not interested.
While "preset" goals and motivations are fine, I really like the process of "organic" discovery of goals. ("I want to harvest eyeballs from monsters and start a Monster Eyeball shop"... )

A player who seems to lack motivations... I'm also a big fan of switching things up. Maybe a nice linear, structured adventure is more their style. You can always weave linear adventures into the sandbox as you go.
I agree on mixing it up. I have sometimes introduced a powerful NPC patron to dole out short/linear quests, if the players are feeling rudderless. Toys are a great idea, too.


I've seen the "player that lacks motivation" most often when a particular game doesn't appeal to a player, but they play anyway because the rest of the group wants to play. Their motivation is basically to have fun with their friends, but the game itself holds no attachment to them. Sometimes this works out, and sometimes it doesn't, depending on how well they can fake it.

I've seen that kind of player, too. Although on occasion, something meshes and they become more invested.

For starters, the GM should not approve a character if it lacks a motivation (i.e., a reason to adventure). Sometimes this can be as lame as, "I want to amass as much wealth as I possibly can while I'm young and live like a pig in shit until my dying day." Just as long as the character has a reason to CONSIDER the the next adventure.

Another thing a GM needs to do is establish the "party mentality" early on. This can be contrieved by requiring the characters develop connections with the other members as part of their backstory (e.g., you're all part of the same guild, etc.). If the characters are strangers thrown together by the plot, the GM needs to craft some opportunities for members to build trust between each other. Then when new hooks are introduced, the motivation doesn't need to extend much further beyond "We do this as a team."
Agreed. One thing I've done is start off with a very dramatic or violent scene that bonds the party. I've noticed other GMs doing the same thing. One public game I played in, the first scene was a massacre at a tavern that the PCs survived. How do you build a party mentality?

Well i'd start with a distinction just to avoid misunderstandings.
Motivation (or purpose) is a long-term innate tendency to something in your life. It can hardly change and, due to its nature, is defined once at the character's creation (and ideally agreed with the DM).
A goal can be either a long or short-term concept...
The long-term can be tied to the character's motivation: namely it is the "reason why" the character uses to follow the adventure path. It can be the association to a guild, the fellowship with other adventurers, the search of something vital for him.
It's not easy to tease apart motivation and goal. I suppose goal is the end point and motivation is the drive that gets you there. Motivation can be tricky to understand. Goals are a lot easier and every adventure has at least one.


Sometimes I wonder if we're not just culturally broken people who just doesn't have what it takes to play RPGs anymore.
..
Of course back in the day, we never really needed a reason. Oh, there's a dungeon there? Cool. Let's go explore it!
..
You have a good point. Adventure should be enough. We are adventurers after all!


The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out
The ones that crawl in are lean and thin
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out
Your brains come tumbling down your snout
Be merry my friends
Be merry

Lunamancer

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Re: Motivation and Goals
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2022, 11:17:03 PM »
That was generic "you", not you personally.

I never took it as me personally, and I did not respond as if it was me personally.

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LOL. I did not advocate a four hour session zero discussion.

I never said you did. It was only an example. Change 4 hours to 20 minutes and call it a discussion rather than a session, and I still have the same problem with it.

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It is simple. Talk to each other.

Just in case you didn't know, the actual play of an RPG largely consists of talking to each other. It's not something anyone needs to go out of their way to do. It's kind of baked into the nature of the game.

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An email beforehand asking "do you want a sandbox where the players provide direction or where the GM provides a module to run" and "do you want to play gritty death at every turn or a gonzo adventure with failure rather than death" solves 90% of people's issues with their groups. Or simply list how you're going to be running the table when creating the group. (Something I've noticed lacking in almost all the LFG/LFP posts I've been going through for VTT games.)

I don't think we necessarily know that stuff up front until the group has had the chance to feel each other out and see what direction the chemistry takes them. There are at the very least some instances where you don't know up front where things are going. I happen to think that's actually the majority of time. So I read this, and all I see is game forum arm chair theorizing that assumes facts not in evidence.

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Otherwise, you (general and specific) are assuming everyone wants what you want, which is not true.

I've never had to assume what anyone wants. Oddly enough, you seem to be assuming that you do know what everyone wants just because you went through some weird pre-game ritual that you think works.
That's my two cents anyway. Carry on, crawler.

Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito.

Tod13

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Re: Motivation and Goals
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2022, 09:44:02 AM »
Quote
An email beforehand asking "do you want a sandbox where the players provide direction or where the GM provides a module to run" and "do you want to play gritty death at every turn or a gonzo adventure with failure rather than death" solves 90% of people's issues with their groups. Or simply list how you're going to be running the table when creating the group. (Something I've noticed lacking in almost all the LFG/LFP posts I've been going through for VTT games.)

I don't think we necessarily know that stuff up front until the group has had the chance to feel each other out and see what direction the chemistry takes them. There are at the very least some instances where you don't know up front where things are going. I happen to think that's actually the majority of time. So I read this, and all I see is game forum arm chair theorizing that assumes facts not in evidence.

Quote
Otherwise, you (general and specific) are assuming everyone wants what you want, which is not true.

I've never had to assume what anyone wants. Oddly enough, you seem to be assuming that you do know what everyone wants just because you went through some weird pre-game ritual that you think works.

Well, we've figured out we disagree. So at least that is settled.  ;D ;)

Shawn Driscoll

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Re: Motivation and Goals
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2022, 05:47:09 PM »
What have you done as a player or GM to create goals and motivation in your games?
Tell the players that the Disneyland theme park ride they expected to go on is broken.

SHARK

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Re: Motivation and Goals
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2022, 06:47:48 PM »
I think it is more that we are fractionalized into ways to play. This site is definitely in favor of sandboxes and no planned plot/story. Other sites tend to run modules with nothing hooking them together. Each method of play seems to see the other way as broken.

When you think it is up to the player to add plot and direction to the story and a player doesn't or can't do that, you tend to think the player is broken. When in actually, he just has a different way he likes to pretend to be an elf.

The reason I brought up things I experienced in my childhood was to point out that it makes just going out and exploring seem like a perfectly natural thing in an RPG. I didn't make any statements as to whether or not I prefer a sandbox. That's not something that's relevant to what I was talking about. Even if that's not my preferred way to play, at least I understand it.

But in a world where we have all the information we have on our fingertips, we don't need to explore in life. Some still like to, and that's awesome. But we don't have to. And so now, why a sandbox is fun and what you do in it requires some explanation. As I pointed out, people are genuinely puzzled by Village of Hommlet. It's a real phenomenon, not just a logical corollary to how the world has changed. Gamers these days need that explained to them.

So it's important to point out, this is not the same thing as people having different ways to pretend being an elf. This is some people who pretend to be an elf one way just not understanding people pretending to be an elf a different way. A lack of understanding is not the same as a difference in preference. Preferring one thing or another is not inherently better or worse. Lacking understanding, on the other hand, is a straight up inferior position.

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It comes down, I think, again to stuff we were discussing 4-5 years ago here, where everyone at the table has to have the same expectation -- in whatever direction -- before you start playing.

There are a number of reasons I never liked that idea. One in particular that stands out in my mind has to do with the state of RPGs in the 90's. There's a reason Whitewolf kicked D&D's ass in the 90's. And only part of it is Vampire being something fresh and edgy. A huge part, if not the bigger part of it is D&D just sucked ass in that era. And part of why that was is they were losing share to Magic: the Gathering. And one reason Magic: the Gathering kicked D&D's ass is because you can start and wrap up a game in a half hour. It's great for the college crowd. You could easily play a hand or two between classes.

It was a reminder that a roughly 4-hour standard RPG session really is a lot to ask. We're hobbyists, so we're down for it. For players on the margin, though, it's tough as it is. Add a session zero of singing kumbaya and discussing each others feelings and preferences, it might work for some players. It might work without a downside for hobbyists. But for players on the margin? I think for every one player you lose after experiencing a very uncomfortable table flip moment, you lose 5 gamers on the margin by raising the barrier to entry.

In general, I find practical concerns trump preference. Most of the people I play with and have played with, myself included, would prefer to have grand campaigns that produces a great story, where we can see characters grow from zero to hero, and a whole lot of other shit that virtual every gamer agrees to. But instead I tend to run mostly dungeon crawls where you begin and end each session in town.

Why? Because it's more practical. I've seen campaigns stall simply because week after week there was no play as the player of one key player or another was a no-show. After a few missed sessions, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Players stop blocking out the time slot, because why give up the opportunity to do something else if you're not sure you're even going to get to play? The simple act of we start in town means being able to seamlessly continue on no matter who shows up. And something approximating a series of dungeon crawls just makes continuity easier. Also, despite it not being the preferred mode of play, players do still have fun. Some have a lot of fun. And all have more fun than the alternative--hackneyed schedules, stalled sessions, and stories that might have been great, if only they'd been seen through to completion.


On message boards, you can always invoke "preference" as something that is unassailable. I could know all there is to know about RPGs. I don't know jack shit about your preferences. You invoke preference, I have to either hold my tongue or make an ass out of myself. And so preference ends up seeming oh so significant on message boards. I just don't think it's the most important thing in actual play.

Greetings!

Excellent commentary, Lunamancer! ;D

Your commentary got me thinking. When did *everyone* begin to work as corporate executives, have a second job, while being married and having four kids under 15? ;D

I don't really buy the popular narrative. Yes, people are busy. People are not somehow more busy now than they were in the past. People always have to deal with family events, work schedules, or school. People always or mostly--devote time to all kinds of hobbies, pastimes, and activities. National research shows that the average American spends four hours or more each night watching television. People devote time, energy, and effort to activities that are priorities to them. Obviously, corporate executives or people working two jobs don't likely have time to game--and thus, probably don't bother.

However, there are millions of people that have entirely different circumstances, a norm if you will. People fid time to game like they devote time to anything else that is a priority for them.

On another angle, I also agree that our cultural rot has increased in the corruption, which impacts the player base. People aren't educated. They are typically ignorant, simple, and unread, almost being illiterate. Animal Crossing, simple farm games, and watching "Realty TV" shows is the extent of their imagination. The literacy and cultural quality of gamers have definitely taken a steep, steep decline from the 70's and 80's. So, Village of Hommlet is a challenge for many gamers today. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Naburimannu

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Re: Motivation and Goals
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2022, 04:59:48 AM »

Your commentary got me thinking. When did *everyone* begin to work as corporate executives, have a second job, while being married and having four kids under 15? ;D

I don't really buy the popular narrative. Yes, people are busy. People are not somehow more busy now than they were in the past. People always have to deal with family events, work schedules, or school. People always or mostly--devote time to all kinds of hobbies, pastimes, and activities. National research shows that the average American spends four hours or more each night watching television. People devote time, energy, and effort to activities that are priorities to them. Obviously, corporate executives or people working two jobs don't likely have time to game--and thus, probably don't bother.

However, there are millions of people that have entirely different circumstances, a norm if you will. People fid time to game like they devote time to anything else that is a priority for them.

On another angle, I also agree that our cultural rot has increased in the corruption, which impacts the player base. People aren't educated. They are typically ignorant, simple, and unread, almost being illiterate. Animal Crossing, simple farm games, and watching "Realty TV" shows is the extent of their imagination. The literacy and cultural quality of gamers have definitely taken a steep, steep decline from the 70's and 80's. So, Village of Hommlet is a challenge for many gamers today. ;D

I think your expectations of the norm are a bit off, Shark. In the 70s to early 80s, half or less of families with kids were dual-income; today it's more like 60% (https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2020/article/comparing-characteristics-and-selected-expenditures-of-dual-and-single-income-households-with-children.htm). And in the 70s and 80s I remember stereotypical families a lot of brain cells wasted watching sitcoms with canned laugh tracks, which were no more challenging than animal crossing or reality TV.

I think Lunamancer is probably on to something. I can afford to spend 4 hours once a week on gaming, or maybe even twice - but my kids are effectively teenagers, and my wife's not in regular work. Pulling from a large player pool of well-paid younger people in London, half of them childfree, they still struggle to make time for a 2.5 hour session.

Maybe the problem is crossing that gulf from "interested in role-playing" to "a priority"?

Wisithir

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Re: Motivation and Goals
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2022, 05:55:09 AM »
Maybe the problem is crossing that gulf from "interested in role-playing" to "a priority"?
A pen an paper RPG campaign is more then just a number of individual sessions, but when instant gratification takes too long playing more then one session is a chore, thus one never gets to experiences a campaign and a single session cannot compete with screen on brain off. The commitment is what makes it good, but what kills it for a modern audience. I have had days when I did not feel like going out, but went to game anyways because my friends were counting on me, and I never regretted dragging myself out to have a good time. Then again, I remember a time before ubiquitous cell phones when it took effort to plan events or even get a hold of people instead of turning on a screen to play remote with whomever is on or sending a group text to see if anyone is available to hang out.