Quote from: I run with scissors;584914If this is stated up front and clear, then, for me, I am cool. It is when you are told one thing, only to find out another, that I have an issue. The problem with a lot of Kickstarters is that often the ones who want the money either do not state clear enough what they will do, or they choose to not communicate.

Manage expectations, communicate, and be transparent. I do not think that is too much to ask.

IRWS

Of course, Caveat Emptor, as well; before backing a project, it may be a good idea to ask questions if the description is vague (and in this case, the description is, indeed vague on this point). If you don't like the answer, don't back the project. You need to make sure you have all the facts before you sign any contract, which is what you're doing when you back a project. Ask questions.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584915And how i see it is that while we see delays in production of pre order products from big businesses all the time, and no one calls anyone a scam over it, we accept that those things happen, yet we're harder on the little guy, expecting him to exceed the expectations we have for a company like Hasbro or SJG, using the defense of "well your a business, so screw you" which makes those of us doing that sort of thing rather prickish assholes who are, indeed, quite full of our own assholish brand of smug, self-righteous bullshit.

In that regard, we need to totally get over ourselves and our collective sense of entitlement.

I do not expect anyone to exceed expectations, but I do expect communication transparency. It was only recently that we got any communication, and sadly it is not by the one who should be doing. When there is an appearance of impropriety going on you should work to stem it. If the project was clearer from the outset, then the issues would not have been raised.

IRWS

Quote from: econobus;584918Sorry, I was on the phone with the dictionary and she told me to tell your middle that she's right, there is a third type of thing: a non-profit entity.

Do you consider the time spend writing a book, drawing art, doing layout to be done for free? Do you consider fair compensation for that work to be a "profit"?

QuoteNon-profit enterprises take money, conduct commerce, fund their operational needs and give the profits back.

Including salaries for the people Conducting the commerce. In some cases, very attractive salaries. I used to work for a charity. I drew a paycheck for that work.

But again, this is a legal definition and is between them and the IRS.

Quote from: I run with scissors;584919I do not have an issue with Reaper and SJG, because for me, they were looking for funding for a project that they wanted to undertake. Did they think they would do that good? I don't know, but if pressed to answer I bet they were.

The "Kickstarter for underdogs with a dream club ONLY" lobby will disagree but I think it's great that corporate entities are using Kickstarter to gauge market interest and ... well, you can't call it "solicit pre-orders" now, but everyone knows what I mean.

If SJG screws up OGRE, they will not be able to play the "hobbyist" card. I know that much.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584920Of course, Caveat Emptor, as well; before backing a project, it may be a good idea to ask questions if the description is vague (and in this case, the description is, indeed vague on this point). If you don't like the answer, don't back the project. You need to make sure you have all the facts before you sign any contract, which is what you're doing when you back a project. Ask questions.

Strangely enough, divorce Dwimmermount from this because for me I backed it as a bet, I have cut down the number of projects I back to just three. All becasue they have been clear and upfront as to what is going on. Reaper was, and is, the last game project I back.

Of all the backed projects I have done, the comic books and design ones are best run. YMMV of course.

I ask questions all the time. If the answers I get are vague or not even answered, I do not back.

IRWS

Quote from: econobus;584926The "Kickstarter for underdogs with a dream club ONLY" lobby will disagree but I think it's great that corporate entities are using Kickstarter to gauge market interest and ... well, you can't call it "solicit pre-orders" now, but everyone knows what I mean.

If SJG screws up OGRE, they will not be able to play the "hobbyist" card. I know that much.

They're already adept at handling production delays and managing release dates and facing torch wielding mobs over them. The benefit of decades of experience.

Quote from: econobus;584926The "Kickstarter for underdogs with a dream club ONLY" lobby will disagree but I think it's great that corporate entities are using Kickstarter to gauge market interest and ... well, you can't call it "solicit pre-orders" now, but everyone knows what I mean.

If SJG screws up OGRE, they will not be able to play the "hobbyist" card. I know that much.

Agree 100%.

Reaper, I feel, is and was different, because they were looking for backing. Hell, I am getting a shit ton of minis, but in the end, the money I pledged went to them to expand their business. I am cool with that. They have done a great job with the after work as well.

IRWS

Quote from: I run with scissors;584927.
I ask questions all the time. If the answers I get are vague or not even answered, I do not back.

And that is a smart way to do this.

The thing about kickstarter is alot of folks launching products on it are novices. They're going to make mistakes. Asking questions is a good way both to assess how on the ball they are, but also can help the creator think of things they may not have considered.

The relationship between a kickstarter creator and a backer is not one of business and customer, it's one of artist and patron. People confusing it for pre-ordering is one of the biggest problems, one which kickstarter has tried to quash.

Quote from: The Butcher;584796Only that's not what the table in question does. Egads, am I the only one here who's actually read the book?

Quite possibly.  

But you're right: I was being blatantly unfair.  The rpgsite is on the former Nothingland servers----we're officially allowed to use hyperbole and exaggeration humour here, and I tend to lay it on with a trowel sometimes.  

Imagine I'm saying all this while kicked back on a leather sofa with a pint of room temperature Theakstone's Old Peculier in one hand and a freshly-lit Bolivar Royal Corona in the other.  I've got both my feet up and a Squirrel Nutkin T-shirt on.

I'm mentioning this because some genius has helpfully blogged my post and repeated a large chunk of it out of context.  Thanks, Tenkar's Tavern!

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584924Do you consider the time spend writing a book, drawing art, doing layout to be done for free? Do you consider fair compensation for that work to be a "profit"?

You know you're talking to this guy, right?

Quote from: econobus;584879it's awesome to rake in fat cash

Of course it's not free. Of course people earn a living and more often "beer money" at this. I've done it myself full-time. It's demanding work for very little money.

It's demanding because it is your business. It is your job, for those few hours a week you have your "pro gamer" hat on, and I have no obligation to you to treat you any differently when you have that hat on than I do the person who trims our lawn. When I did it, I was in "business" for myself. I had responsibilities to my clients and when I screwed up, it hurt me as a "businessman."

Then we'd all go play Gamma World.

Any Kickstarter underdog can pay himself whatever he wants: a word rate, hourly, the whole pie. Sure. I knew he was doing that and wish him well.

On the non-profits...

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584924Including salaries for the people Conducting the commerce. In some cases, very attractive salaries,

This is where I said something about "their operational needs," right? Of course non-profits pay their people. If those people are independent contractors, they're in "business" for themselves. If they screw up, the non-profit can say, "well, I wasn't paying you much anyway, you're more of a hobbyist, a pro would demand more and give me better results."

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584924But again, this is a legal definition and is between them and the IRS.

Which would *you* say Dwimmermount is? A hobby venture, a business or a non-profit venture oriented around recouping its costs and giving back to the fans?

Quote from: I run with scissors;584903Bully for you. However, $45,000 on a kickstarter, the tax man will be looking for their cut.

But he still won't be declaring a kickstarter project a business.

QuoteSuch a witty retort. Your definition and mine are different as to what a troll is. I did not realize someone who debated from a other side of the issue was a troll. Show you what I know. Heck, and golly gee whiz, I even cut out the nasty words.

That's a lot of fuss when all I did was agree with you.

QuoteTrue. However, did you take money? Did you draw a profit? If not, where did the money go?

IRWS

Coke and strippers, usually.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584931The relationship between a kickstarter creator and a backer is not one of business and customer, it's one of artist and patron. People confusing it for pre-ordering is one of the biggest problems, one which kickstarter has tried to quash.

Yes! All right! Yay! That's a non-profit relationship, making the world brighter by adding one new game product or whatever. I can work with that. So if the artists are transparent about where their funding goes, I can pick projects better.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584928They're already adept at handling production delays and managing release dates and facing torch wielding mobs over them. The benefit of decades of experience.

SJG has Big Steve standing over them, I would hate to be the one to soil his Kickstarter.

Probably part of why so many gamers trusted them with a whole lot of money, whereas someone like a Monte is still hit or miss.

Quote from: TristramEvans;584934That's a lot of fuss when all I did was agree with you.

Sorry about I just got a little sensitive there. Sorry to have been an ass with that bit.

IRWS

Quote from: _kent_;584637Could you for example turn your website into a 50 page pdf and sell it?

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;584697Easily, I'd say.  Most of that is commentary.  With some editing, I could probably publish most it without the OGL, even referencing "D&D" as long as I acknowledged it as a trademark owned by WotC.

If I went the OGL route I'd probably be on safer legal ground with some of the more rules-oriented material, but I'd have to remove all references to WotC-owned trademarks, which would be kind of annoying.  

(My site is currently down, though.  I was planning on moving to a different hosting provider and re-working the layout and stuff, but haven't gotten around to it.  There's nothing new on it, anyway.  It's been static for a long time.)

Initially when I got my kindle I experimented with making some gaming pdfs in LaTeX. I prefer pdfs to the flowing text. Your website happened to be something I was reading at the time.