Quote from: econobus;584879Because if it's about profit, I agree, it's awesome to rake in fat cash -- just don't tell me you're a hobbyist if you screw it up, because if you make the profit, you're a business. And if you're truly a hobbyist, tell me that too, and back it up by working out a system to redistribute any profit you accidentally make back to the backers.

Theoretically the premium rewards and bonus goals should be the way that redistribution happens. I suspect the Dwimmermount margins on the big packages aren't extremely high, myself. But the average fan can't tell. They see a book that cost an estimated $10k to produce taking in $48k before it hits the press, they're going to wonder where their book is.

This, right here, is a perfect way in summing it up. The problem I feel, with this whole debate is that there is two camps:

One, feels that Kickstarter, by its nature is a hobbyists endeavor which allows the little guy a chance to fund a dream.

The other agree with this, but feels as soon as you take money, you move from the realm of the hobbyist, to the realm of a business.

IRWS

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584899Making a profit doesn't automatically make it into a business. There are alot of other factors to make that determination. The distinction between hobby and business is a legal one, and is between them and The IRS.

Never said making a profit automatically made you a business. [EDIT: oops! i get where this would come in. Expanded/fixed version follows] But if our relationship devolves to the point where you are making a profit on me -- or just trying to -- then we have a business relationship and I'm going to relate to you in those terms. Which means no more crying about how you're just a hobbyist, our hobby is fraught with endless deadline failure and screwball comedy.

Did that part where I said it's awesome for hobbyists to rake in fat cash make it into the final post?

Quote from: TristramEvans;584900Yeah. Doesn't mean I actually bothered to declare any of my ebay sales while I lived in the States. Or the money from garage sales. Or that I gave two craps about those FBI warnings when I let my friends borrowed my dvds. The American legal system is a mess with a bunch of shit piled on top. It's nothing to do with day to day reality.

Interesting aside, I haven't paid any taxes since I discovered that it was perfectly legal to calculate the money that would be owed and then send a cheque for that amount to the charity of my choice, and a letter to the IRS declaring this decision.

Bully for you. However, $45,000 on a kickstarter, the tax man will be looking for their cut.

Re. my troll nature.

Quotewell said.

Such a witty retort. Your definition and mine are different as to what a troll is. I did not realize someone who debated from a other side of the issue was a troll. Show you what I know. Heck, and golly gee whiz, I even cut out the nasty words.

Quote"A project" does not a business make.

True. However, did you take money? Did you draw a profit? If not, where did the money go?

IRWS

Quote from: I run with scissors;584901This, right here, is a perfect way in summing it up. The problem I feel, with this whole debate is that there is two camps:

One, feels that Kickstarter, by its nature is a hobbyists endeavor which allows the little guy a chance to fund a dream.

The other agree with this, but feels as soon as you take money, you move from the realm of the hobbyist, to the realm of a business.

IRWS

I don't think kickstarter is limited to hobbyists, was never intended to be limited to hobbyists, and definitely serves more than hobbyists. In fact, simply browsing kickstarter projects shows this to be definitely not the case. For example, The DoubleFine adventure game, one of the highest earners and one of the first to break into the millions, was organized by DoubleFine productions, which is a professional game development studio. The money was to fund development and self publish the game.

Once again we have people who don't understand what kickstarter is deciding that others have to impose various restrictions upon using it that they personally decided upon.

Quote from: econobus;584902Never said making a profit automatically made you a business. But if our relationship devolves to the point where you are making a profit on me -- or just trying to -- then we have a business relationship and I'm going to relate to you in those terms. Which means no more crying about how you're just a hobbyist, our hobby is fraught with endless deadline failure and screwball comedy.

I see. So you're using an "all or nothing" logical fallacy to make your point. Got it. Good to know demagoguery is alive and well.

The middle just called; it said it was very unhappy at the way you've been excluding it.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584899

Having a hobby doesn't mean you can't earn some money from it. I don't know why so many gamers seem to think that making money is evil, but I see this shit all the time. If you paid what you consider a fair amount, and when the project is completed get the value you paid for, then that's what matters. If it diminishes your enjoyment of a product if someone makes money off of it, then go off the grid, join a hippie commune, and make everything by hand and pat yourself on the back for avoiding ever allowing someone to make an evil, evil profit.[/QUOTENever said making money was evil. Go for it. However, don't declare you are a hobbyist when you start taking in money, and acting in all ways like a business. You cannot declare you're hobbyist when you do this. Perhaps I am crazy that way, but that is how I see it. The math is very simple:

(x + y) + z = business

Whereas x is money, y is promise and z is product.

IRWS

Quote from: I run with scissors;584906Never said making money was evil. Go for it. However, don't declare you are a hobbyist when you start taking in money, and acting in all ways like a business. You cannot declare you're hobbyist when you do this. Perhaps I am crazy that way, but that is how I see it. The math is very simple:

(x + y) + z = business

Whereas x is money, y is promise and z is product.

IRWS

One guy in his basement making a labor of love he hopes to maybe earn a few extra dollars on doesn't put him in the same category as Hasbro. The premise of that assertion is pure assholish bullshit.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584904I don't think kickstarter is limited to hobbyists, was never intended to be limited to hobbyists, and definitely serves more than hobbyists. In fact, simply browsing kickstarter projects shows this to be definitely not the case. For example, The DoubleFine adventure game, one of the highest earners and one of the first to break into the millions, was organized by DoubleFine productions, which is a professional game development studio. The money was to fund development and self publish the game.

Once again we have people who don't understand what kickstarter is deciding that others have to impose various restrictions upon using it that they personally decided upon.

I understand perfectly what Kickstarter is. Sadly most within this thread feel Kickstarter is for hobbyists. I have stated over and over agin, Kickstarter is for those who have a product ready or close to ready to go, and are looking for that final push of capital to take it there.

In my experience only game hobbyists think it is something else.

IRWS

Quote from: I run with scissors;584910I understand perfectly what Kickstarter is. Sadly most within this thread feel Kickstarter is for hobbyists. I have stated over and over agin, Kickstarter is for those who have a product ready or close to ready to go, and are looking for that final push of capital to take it there.

Often, not even ready or close to ready. Again, the DoubleFine adventure game is an example. Development is still ongoing, and didn't begin at all until funding was reached. Alot of times the kickstarter is to fund the actual development and creation of the end product.

I saw one kickstarter for a photo journal project that the money was to fund not only publication of the journal, but to pay for the photographer to travel to the location and take the photos as well.

QuoteIn my experience only game hobbyists think it is something else.

Probably true.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584909One guy in his basement making a labor of love he hopes to maybe earn a few extra dollars on doesn't put him in the same category as Hasbro. The premise of that assertion is pure assholish bullshit.

I do not see it that way. Sorry. You take money, no matter how much you love what you do, you enter the realm of a business.

This is true for those who create custom toys, create handmade goods and sell at local build your own fairs. Yes, there is a love there, but you also hope to get money to pay for your outlay.

A business is a business. No matter if you sell Avon, Tupperware, babysit, start selling your own hand decorated cakes, or, create a OSR adventure.

The act of taking money, and selling a product, for me, makes you a business. Relation in size to Hasbro or Joe Bob's Dog Walking Service, SNow Shoveling, you are a business.

IRWS

Quote from: I run with scissors;584901The other agree with this, but feels as soon as you take money, you move from the realm of the hobbyist, to the realm of a business.

I never thought James M was a humble hobbyist anyway. I figured he'd take the $10k he wanted, buy some art and finance a print run of maybe 500-1,000 copies, depending on how fancy we were talking. Hand out 250 of those copies to the backers he'd need to raise $10k and the hobbyist broke even. Hooray! And he wasn't even profiting on those 250 loyal fans!

Sell the rest for $39.95 MSRP and the business was in the black. Commercial vending relationship, move on, nothing to see here.

The wrinkle is that he effectively pre-sold that entire print run in advance so the "profit" -- however much it was -- moves up to before the fans get their labor of love copies. It's a nebulous area in the hobby/business split, which is why disclosure and redistribution are my uh hobbyhorses of the day.

Of course Reaper, SJG and so on aren't humble hobbyists by any stretch, but that's an old argument and Doctor Jest can make it better than I can!

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584911Often, not even ready or close to ready. Again, the DoubleFine adventure game is an example. Development is still ongoing, and didn't begin at all until funding was reached. Alot of times the kickstarter is to fund the actual development and creation of the end product.

I saw one kickstarter for a photo journal project that the money was to fund not only publication of the journal, but to pay for the photographer to travel to the location and take the photos as well.

If this is stated up front and clear, then, for me, I am cool. It is when you are told one thing, only to find out another, that I have an issue. The problem with a lot of Kickstarters is that often the ones who want the money either do not state clear enough what they will do, or they choose to not communicate.

Manage expectations, communicate, and be transparent. I do not think that is too much to ask.

IRWS

Quote from: I run with scissors;584912I do not see it that way. Sorry. You take money, no matter how much you love what you do, you enter the realm of a business.

This is true for those who create custom toys, create handmade goods and sell at local build your own fairs. Yes, there is a love there, but you also hope to get money to pay for your outlay.

A business is a business. No matter if you sell Avon, Tupperware, babysit, start selling your own hand decorated cakes, or, create a OSR adventure.

The act of taking money, and selling a product, for me, makes you a business. Relation in size to Hasbro or Joe Bob's Dog Walking Service, SNow Shoveling, you are a business.

IRWS

And how i see it is that while we see delays in production of pre order products from big businesses all the time, and no one calls anyone a scam over it, we accept that those things happen, yet we're harder on the little guy, expecting him to exceed the expectations we have for a company like Hasbro or SJG, using the defense of "well your a business, so screw you" which makes those of us doing that sort of thing rather prickish assholes who are, indeed, quite full of our own assholish brand of smug, self-righteous bullshit.

In that regard, we need to totally get over ourselves and our collective sense of entitlement.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;584905I see. So you're using an "all or nothing" logical fallacy to make your point. Got it. Good to know demagoguery is alive and well. The middle just called; it said it was very unhappy at the way you've been excluding it.

Sorry, I was on the phone with the dictionary and she told me to tell your middle that she's right, there is a third type of thing: a non-profit entity.

Businesses take money, conduct commerce and seek profits. If someone sells me something, we have a business relationship, even if next week we may have a Gamma World game.

Hobbyists are all people, some of whom may also seek profits. If I'm at that Gamma World game, I hope you're not trying to sell me something at the same time because it would make me sad. Not that you're using me but the fact that your profit margin on me must be really low.

Non-profit enterprises take money, conduct commerce, fund their operational needs and give the profits back.

Which one is Dwimmermount again?

Quote from: econobus;584913Of course Reaper, SJG and so on aren't humble hobbyists by any stretch, but that's an old argument and Doctor Jest can make it better than I can!

I do not have an issue with Reaper and SJG, because for me, they were looking for funding for a project that they wanted to undertake. Did they think they would do that good? I don't know, but if pressed to answer I bet they were.

In Reaper's case, they told you why they are doing what they are doing right up front. As the campaign has gone, they have stated the money raised will allow them to bring Bone's production in house.

Again, it all comes down to communication, and what you view Kickstarter for. I have never seen it as a hobbyist tool, but an initial investment tool for a project or product close to term. It is the usual suspects who look to suck any good idea for themselves and attempt to "consult" others that make it what it is not. That, and the usual "let's put on a play" club who want to stick it to the Man.

IRWS