Quote from: noisms;584761I don't think Zak means it in a high falutin' "RPGs are art" sense. I think he just means in the art industry it is common to get commissions or advances before delivery.

And that, by the way, is reasonably common in publishing too: I don't believe many novels are written on a payment-on-delivery basis, except for those submitted on spec.

Not sure we want to extrapolate Zak's experiences in the decorative arts to publishing. Plenty of novels do receive an "advance" but remember, while this is often used as a completion stipend, it's really an advance against future royalties. It's a deposit the publisher pays out of what it expects the author's share of sales will be -- paid before the books are printed.

The artistic commission or grant, on the other hand, is usually more of a true stipend to fund creation and delivery of the work.

But Dwimmermount has taken in $48,000 along with the requirement to print and distribute at least 600 print copies. Is this money an "advance" on future royalties? Unlikely, because the person paying the advance isn't the publisher. Is it a pre-order? Gamers seem very invested in telling me no, it is not.

Maybe that $48,000 truly is more of a stipend and the backers could be considered "art patrons." Good to think about!

Quote from: The Butcher;584737Beg to differ. From the sagas of old to The Man Who Would Be King to The Hour of the Dragon, taking a crown and holding on to it has been the stuff of high adventure.

But I agree that if you can't see the fun in taking over a kingdom of thieves' guild (where any "persuasion" probably won't get done at a neat oak table with fancy words, but in shadowy alleys and with poisoned daggers), you're absolutely not the target audience.

Hm. I'm not sure I agree with that assessment. The assumption the game seems to be based on is that there is a start of a game that is basically classic D&D with dungeon and wilderness adventures, the accumulation of wealth that allows you to get a domain or zone of influence in the campaign world, and then the development of those holdings as the campaign's end game, where you basically administer the land and become "king".

I think the tools provided are not emulative of the middle ages the way a Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe tried to be (that d20 sourcebook is awesome, btw), and can work if as a DM you can fill in the blanks and make the role playing and situations happen around the die roll(s) to take over the thieves' guild. It's similar in that sense to the Assassination tables of AD&D, and I don't see a critical problem with that.

Now some things do make me cringe when I look at the structure of the game and what it glosses over.

Quote from: The Butcher;584737But I don't think characterizing ACKS as "glossing over" adventuring is a fair or true assessment.

Let's look at the book.

Chapter 7 is the domain management stuff per se. There's actually a lot of ideas to lift from that chapter for a D&D campaign, like the harvesting of stuff to build your magical power, the construction of holdings, etc etc. It's good stuff for the peripheral events in the campaign the PCs can influence through their domains, and what their domains, lackeys, magical stuff does in the game, the consequences that come from it, a tie to experience and the core of the game itself, etc. I think there's a LOT of merit to this part of the game.

Now, the part about adventuring per se is Chapter 6: adventuring. Dungeon adventures are covered in less that one page and half. Exact same thing about the Wilderness. Nowhere does it explain how to come up with a wilderness map, how to populate it, add adventuring locations etc etc (you need to go into Chp. 8 for that). The chapter then does into sea travels, Encounters, surprise and reaction rolls, combat, damage, etc. But nowhere does it explain how that stuff is used, what the adventuring context is, and how you build it.

You need to go to Chapter 8 Secrets to get instructions on how to build dungeons and wilderness. The methodogies for the wilderness are about hexes maps, domains included, population. The dungeon how-tos cover types of environment, stocking, placing monsters, traps, wandering monsters. Is that sufficient to come up with a dungeon environment when you don't know how to do it because you've never played yourself or you played other games with the D&D sticker on it and have no clue about old school play?

Tavis was talking earlier about how the status of Dwimmermount as "legendary" goes back to the start of the "OSR hobby". I think he alluded to the purpose of ACKS in that context as well, that the game is intended for an audience that's not really familiar with OS play as such, to reintroduce the fun it presents to modern audiences, an evengelization goal, in other words.

Well. The question that should immediately come to mind is: how much good can the game do in that sense if it assumes you already know the old school campaign structures and methodologies to bring it to life? Either you have never played D&D, in which case you need to go hunt for such clues online, sample maps and the like, or read other games and whatnot, or you are familiar with say, 3rd and 4th ed and will be let to assume that the structures of dungeon play of these editions work in the OS context, so you're going to build 5 room lairs in a string with tactical encounters with feats and squares and stuff. Is that really OS dungeon play? Fuck no, IMO. So... how helpful is the game to reintroduce OS style gaming? Or was it addressed solely to the OSR audience from the start?

I think there's a valid debate to have around these issues.

Quote from: I run with scissors;584763In this I agree, but even in publishing, internals are maintained to ensure the trains run on time. Robert Jordan was a writer who took a long time to write. Tor did not solicit a book to the book trade until manuscript was in house and the editor knew it could be kicked into production. They did not say:

"Hey Bob, we're going publish volume 127 of the Wheel of Boredom at year's end. It's March. We good, right?"

Writing and game designing is creative. I get and accept it. Creatives have poor time management and mercurial attention spans. It is up to the publisher to have a clear idea of what they want, and if they can do what they want.

IRWS

*cough*GeorgeRRMartin*cough*

Quote from: econobus;584766Not sure we want to extrapolate Zak's experiences in the decorative arts to publishing. Plenty of novels do receive an "advance" but remember, while this is often used as a completion stipend, it's really an advance against future royalties. It's a deposit the publisher pays out of what it expects the author's share of sales will be -- paid before the books are printed.

The artistic commission or grant, on the other hand, is usually more of a true stipend to fund creation and delivery of the work.

But Dwimmermount has taken in $48,000 along with the requirement to print and distribute at least 600 print copies. Is this money an "advance" on future royalties? Unlikely, because the person paying the advance isn't the publisher. Is it a pre-order? Gamers seem very invested in telling me no, it is not.

Maybe that $48,000 truly is more of a stipend and the backers could be considered "art patrons." Good to think about!

Interesting point, and probably accurate. I don't mind thinking of it that way - I've backed a grand total of 1 Kickstarters, for Vincent Baker's Seclusion of Orphone, and I guess I look at it that way: I'm paying him to just keep on keeping on, because I think he's great.

Quote from: I run with scissors;584763In this I agree, but even in publishing, internals are maintained to ensure the trains run on time. Robert Jordan was a writer who took a long time to write. Tor did not solicit a book to the book trade until manuscript was in house and the editor knew it could be kicked into production. They did not say:

"Hey Bob, we're going publish volume 127 of the Wheel of Boredom at year's end. It's March. We good, right?"

Writing and game designing is creative. I get and accept it. Creatives have poor time management and mercurial attention spans. It is up to the publisher to have a clear idea of what they want, and if they can do what they want.

IRWS

Keep in mind lots of game publishers dont come from a publishing background. Lots of them are learning as they go and it is something of an accepted norm for the industry. I know nothing on the case in point here just making the general observation that delays are pretty common for RPGs. Also sometimes publishers end up with a choice between putting out crap on time or delaying in order to do release something more solid.

Quote from: noisms;584769*cough*GeorgeRRMartin*cough*

Definitely. This reminded me of how relatively "big" advances work, by the way, so I hope you don't mind the footnote.

GRRM probably got about half his advance when the deal was signed and then the rest in one or more installments for meeting manuscript milestones. No milestone, no check. When and if that last draft shows up, he gets that last advance check and the publisher can start pre-selling to recoup its investment.

So yes, the traditional publishing advance system involves pretty significant payment-on-delivery. Naturally gaming will vary, but I believe some publishers who track royalties will pay some "advance" upon receipt of ms.

Quote from: noisms;584769*cough*GeorgeRRMartin*cough*

Again the publisher is as much at fault than the writer. It takes two to tango, if you will. The publisher, knowing how slow Martin is, should not solicit anything until they are sure it will be out on time.

I realize, and accept, shit happens. No matter how much planning you do, things do happen. However, that does not mitigate the responsibilities of both the creatives and publisher to know if they can meet deadline.

IRWS

Quote from: noisms;584771Interesting point, and probably accurate. I don't mind thinking of it that way - I've backed a grand total of 1 Kickstarters, for Vincent Baker's Seclusion of Orphone, and I guess I look at it that way: I'm paying him to just keep on keeping on, because I think he's great.

Thanks. It's a different model and I think more constructive because it lets the talent monetize their celebrity in more service-oriented ways (access, interaction, collaboration) than the now-standard "pay $500 extra to get it with leather interiors" product-driven reward approach.

Who knows if it's too late to help Dwimmermount, but good for the future.

Quote from: Zak S;584695Some people need the carrot.

I don't think this is what's going on though, I think what's going on is:

1. Holy fuck writing for print is way harder than writing a blog

2. Holy fuck explaining this dungeon to other people is way harder than me just knowing it

3. Holy fuck if I want this to be good I have to include this and this and this

4. Holy fuck these things all need stats

5. Holy fuck art work from people in different time zones

6. Holy fuck dungeons are harder to edit than almost any other kind of prose because each thing refers to some off-screen thing

7. Holy fuck this happened while I playtested it, I better fix that.

I'm just thinking 12 dungeon levels is like...5-6 Vornheims ? And that was almost all one person doing everything including the art--no phone calls or do overs or re-edits or changing stuff because the pictures don't match the prose and vice versa.

I can see it taking some surprising time even without resorting to conspiracy theories or psychiatric evaluations. Dungeons with all the i's dotted and T's crossed are a bitch to put together.

You are right - a delay would not be unusual, especially for a typical OSR blogger for whom this would be an entrance into converting stuff to publishable form.

But in a way your post mischaracterized what those who are upset are upset about.  It is that practically all those things should not have been pitfalls for James as an industry veteran.  If someone with extensive credits tells you in November that they are done with something, and then tells you in April that you're going to have something in 2 months, where he is at now doesn't add up.  Work did come to dead-stop, for understandable reasons, which compounded things.  

It isn't that the books are likely to never get finished.

Well, that and the continuing censorship from James on the issue, and his reluctance to actually directly engage people who paid in an arena of discussion.  Even in this industry, that's atypical.  It gives the impression that James is willing to discuss games, and humbly receive praise, but even if he takes your money and fails to deliver, he is not to be criticized.  Tavis has done an admirable job in the project manager capacity, and by taking (and responding to) the grief that James is not willing to engage.

So all the things you said are true, and all of them have almost no relation to why the upset people are upset.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;584772Keep in mind lots of game publishers dont come from a publishing background. Lots of them are learning as they go and it is something of an accepted norm for the industry. I know nothing on the case in point here just making the general observation that delays are pretty common for RPGs. Also sometimes publishers end up with a choice between putting out crap on time or delaying in order to do release something more solid.

I realize that, but can you not agree that no matter how little background you have in publishing, you should be able to know what you can accomplish in the time you have?

I am sorry, I refuse to accept that a publisher would undertake a project without performing a little pre planning to learn:

1. State of manuscript
2. Could creative complete project in given time
3. Pad in extra time to ensure the trains are running on time

I am not asking for a hobbyist to to act like a big person publisher, but I am asking them to work within their means and think before they act. If they do choose to act, once you take money **cough** $48,000 **cough** realize that you are now a business and you will need to act like one.

Furthermore, I am very tired of the buyer's being made to feel as if they are the wrong. The last time I checked, a gamer did not set the due date, they did not take the money, they did not assume the risk. The publisher does. You tell the gamer, we will give you X on Y, don't act shocked that the gamer wants X on y, not on z.

IRWS

Quote from: Benoist;584767Tavis was talking earlier about how the status of Dwimmermount as "legendary" goes back to the start of the "OSR hobby". I think he alluded to the purpose of ACKS in that context as well, that the game is intended for an audience that's not really familiar with OS play as such, to reintroduce the fun it presents to modern audiences, an evengelization goal, in other words.

Well. The question that should immediately come to mind is: how much good can the game do in that sense if it assumes you already know the old school campaign structures and methodologies to bring it to life? Either you have never played D&D, in which case you need to go hunt for such clues online, sample maps and the like, or read other games and whatnot, or you are familiar with say, 3rd and 4th ed and will be let to assume that the structures of dungeon play of these editions work in the OS context, so you're going to build 5 room lairs in a string with tactical encounters with feats and squares and stuff. Is that really OS dungeon play? Fuck no, IMO. So... how helpful is the game to reintroduce OS style gaming? Or was it addressed solely to the OSR audience from the start?

I think there's a valid debate to have around these issues.

Perhaps old-school games built by and for people who completely dislike 3E are the boundary patroller games.

As I said upthread, I think it interesting that I see more discussion about ACK on the big purple and enworld than I do on solely old-school boards.  If you're going to evangelize, it is most efficient when you don't ask the people converting to leave all their customs and mores behind.  It's why Christmas is celebrated on December 25th, for example.  But it enlarges the market for the game, because while for old-schoolers there is a very real risk of "not unique enough to make me convert", for WotC and Paizo players, that is not true.

So perhaps it's a blend that fuzzes these areas so that theoretically, both camps could apply what they know to fill in the blanks.

"Tastes great!"

"No, less filling!"

I'm going to actually reread the ACKS parts on the dungeon and wilderness to make up my mind on this.

Quote from: I run with scissors;584780I am not asking for a hobbyist to to act like a big person publisher, but I am asking them to work within their means and think before they act. If they do choose to act, once you take money **cough** $48,000 **cough** realize that you are now a business and you will need to act like one.

Water under the bridge now, but it seems like bonus goals and high-level reward tiers are becoming part of the problem.

I'm thinking about that project that met its goal and was apparently already done before a few high-level backers showed up with associated special handling needs that ate the project alive.

It would've been nice if the Dwimmermount campaign was structured in such a way that it actually CUT OFF funding after it met its goal and either moved late backers onto a true "pre-order" list or returned the excess money.

I know that sounds crazy, but for a project that wants to remain in hobbyist land, it actually makes sense. James would've gotten the $10k he said he needed to cover his development costs, as well as pre-order deposits and ultimately the profits as he sold through the print run. (I'm assuming that was the plan, but for all I know they were planning on printing to backer demand.) He'd be a normal hobby publisher and nobody could even wonder where the "extra" $38k was going.

Quote from: I run with scissors;584780Furthermore, I am very tired of the buyer's being made to feel as if they are the wrong. The last time I checked, a gamer did not set the due date, they did not take the money, they did not assume the risk. The publisher does. You tell the gamer, we will give you X on Y, don't act shocked that the gamer wants X on y, not on z.

I hear you there. The autarch thread made me a little nauseous, gamers eager to blame themselves and each other for backing this project. If I had the time I'd create a role-playing game called GAMEPRO and charge people money to pretend to be "freelancers" and "star bloggers" and "patrons" and "half-elf publishers." Come to think of it, though, that's how the industry already works.

Quote from: noisms;584761I don't believe many novels are written on a payment-on-delivery basis, except for those submitted on spec.

The general case for novels is that the advance (a percentage of Royalties) is payed out in three installments:

1.) 1/3rd on signing of contract for the book. Typically, this involves submission of a sample chapter and a description of the rest of the book.

2.) 1/3rd on acceptance of the manuscript. Book is written, and has gone through an editing/rewriting cycle with the author's agent.

3.) 1/3rd upon publication. Book is finished, has gone through a rewrite cycle with the publisher's Editor, and has gone through a final proofreading pass with a proofreader (the author having a day or two to review those notes and either accept or "stet" them).

This is the standard procedure for novels, unless something very unusual is going on.

I don't know the exact costs of some things in publishing, but it seems that $48,000 can get you a lavish product if you spend your money carefully, especially if you only needed $10,000 to get it off the launching pad. If Dwimmermount is ever released, it should look pretty good.