Quote from: Joethelawyer;584724That's sorta what I figured too.  

That said, this is the most entertaining thread I've read here in years.  

I'd have some thoughts on the matter being discussed, I guess, if I were to think hard enough about it, but I can't be bothered to because this whole issue Just Doesn't Matter.  At All.  

Still, entertaining.  Keeps me amused on a Sunday morning while sipping coffee.  Carry on!

I absolutely agree.

Quote from: P&P;584681Sarcasm aside, the basic problem with Manager Merchant Landlord is that the authors do not have clue #1 about how real Feudal Kingdoms worked which introduces massive anomalies and problems.  They may know a bit about Ancient Rome (hence having rules for slaves but not for serfs, for example), but they don't understand the basic mediaeval paradigm.  You don't "attract" peasants into your fucking service!  Their population figures are totally borked (tens of millions of families?  Really??) but they clearly indicate that peasants are not a scarce resource.  Even if you did need to "attract" peasants, you wouldn't do it by making "agricultural investments" of tens of thousands of gp or holding "festivals".  You'd build houses with safe water supplies in communities that include schools and hospitals.

Overall, this is a game of mediaeval economic management written by people who don't understand mediaeval economics, superimposed on an admittedly tightly-written retro-clone. If you can secure a free copy, pages 117 and 118 may inspire a mildly useful house rule or two.  I have no clue why anyone would drop the RRP of $40 on it.

I'm no expert but I'm fairly sure that, when they deviated from a historical Medieval paradigm, they did so the better to reflect the baseline assumption of D&D: a world in which civilization lies in small "islands" surrounded by an "ocean" of monster-haunted wilderness.

The standard ACKS campaign assumption seems to be that PCs travel to the Bog of Doom, clear out the Temple of the Blood God of its monstruous tenants and ancient wealth, get a royal charter or title of nobility at 9th level and use the accumulated treasure to build a keep; this in turn attracts settlers who go about tilling the soil or raising livestock or whatever, and voilà! the forces of Civilization once more triumph over Barbarism. At least until some disgruntled orc warlord (or evil high priest of the secret Blood God cult of the swamp folk, or elder black dragon which lairs just over the Black River, or the elder nobleman whose lands border on the Bog of Doom) feels threatened by the young enclave and decides to teach your high level noveau-riche adventurers an object lesson in not fucking with monsters.

It's a great model, one that hearkens back at least to the D&D Companion set (at least as presented in the Rules Cyclopedia, where I first read about it) and one which works like a charm for a roleplaying game. It's probably not a great emulation of the High Middle Ages in England or whatever, but it's good enough and amazingly consistent for a sword-and-sorcery rags-to-riches saga like Conan's (the Platonic ideal of the fantasy adventurer who starts out as a Young Turk with a sword and an attitude, and ends up deciding the fate of nations.

As for the adaptation of Traveller rules, it was originally published in one of the old "Known World" (later Mystara) D&D Gazetteers (not sure if Republic of Darokin or Kingdom of Ierendi), and I don't think PCs would be too thrilled to import tea from fantasy-London to fantasy-Paris. On the other hand, something like the Silk Road, or the Age of Sail's long and perilous sea trade routes (and even a bit of piracy), would make for a kick-ass merchant-adventurers(-pirates?) sort of campaign.

The autarch website has a design blog which goes into some depth with reagrds to some of the authors' assumptions about fantasy economics. I've found this post (which speaks of conciling Companion set and Arneson's Blackmoor economic assumptions with historical data) very insightful.

Quote from: P&P;584681I mean, my first impression was that the system is clearly misnamed.  If I'd written a book called Adventurer Conqueror King, it would involve adventuring, conquering, and being king.  This system ought to be called Manager Merchant Landlord, which is what it's actually about.

:cheerleader:

Quote from: P&P;584718And this business of (for example) taking over a criminal guild being done with a roll and a table lookup.  All resolved in less than one minute flat.  Instead of, say, meeting up with the criminals and figuring out who's in charge and getting to them and... persuading them to retire, a session or two's worth of adventuring, you roll on a table.  

The only explanation for these things that I can see is that the system's actively designed to skim over adventuring scenarios.  Presumably so as to get back to the investment and mercantile trading.

Beg to differ. From the sagas of old to The Man Who Would Be King to The Hour of the Dragon, taking a crown and holding on to it has been the stuff of high adventure.

But I agree that if you can't see the fun in taking over a kingdom of thieves' guild (where any "persuasion" probably won't get done at a neat oak table with fancy words, but in shadowy alleys and with poisoned daggers), you're absolutely not the target audience.

Which is cool, by the way. I can certainly see the merit in dealing with economics and politics without getting into as much detail. I'd even point you towards An Echo, Resounding which came out at about the same time, and which deals with some of the same things in a more abstract and rules-lite manner.

But I don't think characterizing ACKS as "glossing over" adventuring is a fair or true assessment.

Quote from: Settembrini;584712@Zak S

Why would you defend JM, are you selling sth together? This reeks of something...

I am pretty much just having the conversation I would have with noisms if we were talking about anybody who got a grant and then was taking longer than expected. Noisms is a smart guy and I have liked talking to him about stuff for 3 years.

Like i said, in the art business this is a really common thing and is rarely seen as a sign of anything alarming.

Quote from: The Butcher;584737Beg to differ. From the sagas of old to The Man Who Would Be King to The Hour of the Dragon, taking a crown and holding on to it has been the stuff of high adventure.

But I agree that if you can't see the fun in taking over a kingdom of thieves' guild (where any "persuasion" probably won't get done at a neat oak table with fancy words, but in shadowy alleys and with poisoned daggers), you're absolutely not the target audience.

Uhhh . . . that's actually P&P's point. Taking over a thieves guild, or anything else, should involve more than a die roll.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;584740Uhhh . . . that's actually P&P's point. Taking over a thieves guild, or anything else, should involve more than a die roll.

But there's no "take over the guild" table that I could find.

There is a "what happens when you take over the guild" table, which is essentially the guild henchmen's reaction roll to the new management (p. 140), and which is the only "take over the guild" table I could find.

The subsystems presented in ACKS, as far as I could discern, all seem designed to complement, rather than replace adventuring, and if anything, take it into new and interesting directions. Some people don't want hard and fast rules for these things and I understand this. But I just don't understand what is it that you and Stuart read into ACKS that suggests to you that the rules somehow downplay adventuring in favor of bureaucracy; that's not what I get from reading and re-reading the campaign rules, quite the contrary.

Quote from: The Butcher;584743But there's no "take over the guild" table that I could find.

There is a "what happens when you take over the guild" table, which is essentially the guild henchmen's reaction roll to the new management (p. 140).

Yes, ACKS is trying to answer the question - what's happening around the characters ? - rather than the DM winging it. Not that I see winging it as inferior.

Quote from: Sean !;584746Yes, ACKS is trying to answer the question - what's happening around the characters ? - rather than the DM winging it. Not that I see winging it as inferior.

Agreed. Hell, I don't see why someone can't use only some of these subsystems, and wing the rest.

Quote from: Zak S;584739Like i said, in the art business this is a really common thing and is rarely seen as a sign of anything alarming.

This ain't the art business.

Quote from: The Butcher;584743But there's no "take over the guild" table that I could find.

I believe he's referring to "Change in Management," p. 140.

Quote from: Zak S;584739Like i said, in the art business this is a really common thing and is rarely seen as a sign of anything alarming.

Um, gee, I hate to break it to you but this business is either one of two things:

1. Publishing

2. A hobby

Yeah, see it is publishing. The sooner more people realize that when you take the money (via a kickstarter) it stops being a hobby and becomes a business.

If you want to do this as a hobby, cool, and that is great. Yet, if you want to do this a "job" treat it as a job.

Simplistic?

Fuck no.

In no ways what we do is art.

IRWS

Quote from: Black Vulmea;584752I believe he's referring to "Change in Management," p. 140.

:rolleyes:

That's the one I referred to in my post, and like I said, it's not a "take over the organization" table. It's a "what happens when you take over the organization"; a reaction roll, really.

Quote from: I run with scissors;584753Um, gee, I hate to break it to you but this business is either one of two things:

1. Publishing

2. A hobby

Yeah, see it is publishing. The sooner more people realize that when you take the money (via a kickstarter) it stops being a hobby and becomes a business.

If you want to do this as a hobby, cool, and that is great. Yet, if you want to do this a "job" treat it as a job.

Simplistic?

Fuck no.

In no ways what we do is art.

IRWS

I don't think Zak means it in a high falutin' "RPGs are art" sense. I think he just means in the art industry it is common to get commissions or advances before delivery.

And that, by the way, is reasonably common in publishing too: I don't believe many novels are written on a payment-on-delivery basis, except for those submitted on spec.

I have concerns about Kickstarters, but I'm sure they can work well when the person involved is extremely conscientious. Not everybody is, though.

Quote from: noisms;584761And that, by the way, is reasonably common in publishing too: I don't believe many novels are written on a payment-on-delivery basis, except for those submitted on spec.

I have concerns about Kickstarters, but I'm sure they can work well when the person involved is extremely conscientious. Not everybody is, though.

In this I agree, but even in publishing, internals are maintained to ensure the trains run on time. Robert Jordan was a writer who took a long time to write. Tor did not solicit a book to the book trade until manuscript was in house and the editor knew it could be kicked into production. They did not say:

"Hey Bob, we're going publish volume 127 of the Wheel of Boredom at year's end. It's March. We good, right?"

Writing and game designing is creative. I get and accept it. Creatives have poor time management and mercurial attention spans. It is up to the publisher to have a clear idea of what they want, and if they can do what they want.

IRWS