Quote from: Settembrini;584469Sorry, metric ton, ofc.
A qualifier not used in metric system countries... except when dealing with shipping freight, Americans or bomb loads.

Without differences in such measurement we would be denied such awesome expressions such as the metric fuckton. Its all good.

Quote from: _kent_;584472Fiasco, again I have to point out that you are having a one sided conversation in your own head because I don't know who you are, have no interest in finding out and am going to ignore your buzzing on my peripherals from now on. Feel free to continue your close reading of my blog though.

Some Thing Kent is your true identify little man? Wow they let retards choose the darnedest names at the deed poll office.

Quote from: Settembrini;584460But a Q for J. Alexander no matter how much IRWS is a bag of untruth, from the outside it does indeed looks like Tavis and JM reacted way more after online ruckus was caused.

That's an unfortunate effect of James having preferred to do most of our communication about the project through backer-only updates. I think it would have been better to talk publicly about the delays from the beginning, but the online ruckus in open forums has gotten the job done in any case.

The perspective from the inside involves a growing ruckus of emails and phone calls as it becomes clear that the announced ship date is unlikely to be met and we try various approaches to getting it back on track which were less effective than the weekly update strategy adopted on August 10. Some dates that backers can verify, though, are:

- In backer update #17 on June 4, 2012, James talks about events with his family's health that have contributed to the project not being finished by the original date planned, and predicts that the complete PDF will be available in Fall 2012. Fifteen comments from backers, two expressing frustration with the delay.

- In backer update #20 on August 10, we discuss how the three drafts of dungeon levels that have been completed since then (shared in updates #18 and #19) haven't arrived at the rate James had hoped in update #17. As a result we commit to internal scheduling that will help establish whether or not a reasonable rate of progress is being achieved and allow the projection of a realistic date of overall completion, and begin a series of weekly updates to increase transparency and accountability. Seven comments, all supportive.

- In backer update #21 on August 17, we share scans of some of the dungeon notes from the original Dwimmermount campaign (as promised in the first bonus goal). One comment from a backer who says the notes are much more skeletal than he'd realized and expresses doubts about whether it ever would have been possible to have turned these notes into a finished product by the original deadline, which in a reply I agree was over-ambitious and did not leave a sufficient hedge against the unexpected.

- Updates #22 and #23 are on August 24 and 31 and continue tracking progress against and updating the internal schedule of milestones towards completion. Two comments, one about the Minecraft server, one from a backer interested in a refund.

- On September 1 a user called I run with scissors starts a thread on a public area of the Autarch forum and quotes the backer updates. Later in the thread a user called IRWS, who seems to be continuing I run with scissors' voice in the conversation, identifies himself as having pledged $40 to the project. This is the likeliest way to have been reading the backer updates, but it can't be verified because neither user account has been created with an email or Kickstarter handle that matches a backer in the system.

Raising that ruckus had the praiseworthy effects of bringing discussion of the issues facing the project into the public sphere and allowing more space for voices expressing dissatisfaction, since the general tone established among the backers in the comments to the updates was supportive. Nevertheless four backers felt comfortable enough being nonconformists to express dissatisfaction prior to September 1; differences in modus operandi make it seem unlikely that any of these were the same person who later posted as I run with scissors.

Addressing comments in the Autarch thread helped me identify some better ways to communicate about the current status of the project in the weekly updates. Nevertheless the project management approach that's been proving effective predated I run with scissors; was in reaction to the delays themselves, not any online ruckus about it; and wasn't a decision to start dealing with the delays for the first time, just a decision to be transparent with backers about the process.

Quote from: Settembrini;584450In this case of JM, the moment his claim to leadership of the OSR went unopposed or at least was generally accepted..

Link please. Again as with some others on this and past thread who like to bash the OSR or individuals with generalizations, link to the specifics so folk can judge for themselves.

Quote from: EOTB;584213I'm not seeing the requirement for ACK to be its own game either in that thread.  That it could be a supplement is evident in that it is acknowledged as able to be used with a minimal amount of work with other systems. (emphasis added - BV)

*PING!*

Quote from: EOTB;584213Once we get to "it's tempting to fill in the other parts and make it its own game" then I speculate that's a baser motivation that drives it.

Like the cloying cross-marketing of ACKS in the Dwimmermount Kickstarter: "The dungeon key will be published for LL as well as Autarch's new Adventurer Conqueror King System, or ACKS, which adds support for characters who wish to use Dwimmermount's wealth to start a thieves' guild, create their own magical cross-breeds, or build a stronghold."

When you're simultaneously claiming that ACKS 'needed to be a complete game' in one breath while touting it as "easily adaptable" to all flavors of D&D in another and pushing your product in someone else's ad copy, then the hype machine is running on overload.

Quote from: estar;584238The one hard and fast rule about selling to the OSR is  never ever promote what you do as a better D&D.  That kill sales across all segments of the market.

Does it, really?

The main commercial benefits of publishing a separate game are (1) brand creation and recognition, and (2) a priori less strings attached to other products and lines from other publishers you cannot control and supervise yourself.

What's being systematically ignored is that the more brands you add, the more fractured the audience becomes, and the stronger the individual brands are, the more individual identification with a particular game, and therefore oppositions, etc, there'll be on the part of the audience(s) of these games.

Also, to those who wish ill to the "true" clones like S&W, LL and OSRIC and at the same time applaud the coming of new games taking things in their own separate directions, just realize that without S&W, there would have been no LotFP or Stars Without Number, without LL there would have been no ACKS and no echo resounding, and without OSRIC there would have been no Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea.

So I honestly find it hypocritical to bitch at the former, and then praise the latter like they're the second coming of Gygax. It's not logically consistent.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;584494Does it, really?

The arrogance alone  is an open handed slap to the face. If someone's knocked together heartbreaker makes this claim then it has to more than deliver.

I'm ok with " my take on D&D" or "my version of D&D". Saying that its objectively better is an instant flag that signals the smell of shit.

Quote from: Settembrini;584450According to the general theory of the RPGpundit, the lacking social hygiene will fire back on the OSR. In this case of JM, the moment his claim to leadership of the OSR went unopposed or at least was generally accepted...
...basically what he writes and does is seen by many, many people, the majoritiy I fear, as being THE OSR.

He claimed leadership over the OSR? When was this? Egads, this is getting more terrifying by the moment. The entire idea behind the OSR, from my understanding, is that we are all doing our own thing, just related war stories and what worked and what didn't.

I am surprised he would be unopposed though, I would imagine that the One Of Porn would want that crown.

I am rather glad that I am out of the OSR and just doing my thing, which was what I sort of thought was the point anyway.

Quote from: bat;584500He claimed leadership over the OSR? When was this?

An event taking place in Settembri's mind is going to be hard to date precisely.

Quote from: Benoist;584496The main commercial benefits of publishing a separate game are (1) brand creation and recognition, and (2) a priori less strings attached to other products and lines from other publishers you cannot control and supervise yourself.

What's being systematically ignored is that the more brands you add, the more fractured the audience becomes, and the stronger the individual brands are, the more individual identification with a particular game, and therefore oppositions, etc, there'll be on the part of the audience(s) of these games.

Also, to those who wish ill to the "true" clones like S&W, LL and OSRIC and at the same time applaud the coming of new games taking things in their own separate directions, just realize that without S&W, there would have been no LotFP or Stars Without Number, without LL there would have been no ACKS and no echo resounding, and without OSRIC there would have been no Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea.

So I honestly find it hypocritical to bitch at the former, and then praise the latter like they're the second coming of Gygax. It's not logically consistent.

Well said, Benoist. Many attitudes have changed from 'Standing on the shoulders of giants.'  to ' My idea is better than theirs!'  and it is rather puzzling as this is a small community and it probably behooves one to step back, take a deep breath and appreciate all that has come before.

Another blogger and I are right now, working on YET ANOTHER BLOODY SYSTEM, not because we think it will be the next best thing, but rather for points mentioned by Benoist; we want to release settings and adventures, but feel that we would need to have a core set of rules to maintain balance and control over our releases.

Our system will be different from many other offerings (note I am not saying better, just an alternative in many ways) and we plan to support it with adventures (we are actually working to get the majority of work done before release: core, supplements, adventures and settings to expand in time) before making huge detailed announcements and without crowdfunding (or clip art).

Through this process my partner in crime and I have bounced a lot of ideas around, but at no point did either of us consider this particular take to be better or worse than any other game, we just started talking and the game has grown organically from many, many discussions. I know that another set of rules is diluting the OSR pond just that much more, but we are also stretching to look into and revive a couple of other games in this process to go beyond D&D retro-clones to reach an audience outside of the OSR as well.

Will this all work? Who knows? But we will be able to control subsequent releases by controlling the core, which is a CYA move that is practical to use when whoever owns the core rules you are riffing off from can say or do something that you do not agree with.

Quote from: Tavis;584501An event taking place in Settembri's mind is going to be hard to date precisely.

I seem to recall something of that nature a few years ago. As to who said it, where and when, well like i said, a vague recollection is all.

Quote from: Benoist;584496Also, to those who wish ill to the "true" clones like S&W, LL and OSRIC and at the same time applaud the coming of new games taking things in their own separate directions, just realize that without S&W, there would have been no LotFP or Stars Without Number, without LL there would have been no ACKS and no echo resounding, and without OSRIC there would have been no Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea.

I'm not wishing ill on the first generation of clones, because you're right, we wouldn't have had the second generation without them. And even re-implementing old mechanics, it's obvious that the authors of S&W, LL and OSRIC have put a lot of work in. For all the self-aggrandising of the bloggers, it's Matt Finch et al people that have done the hard work and got the products out there and on shelves.

But... these days, I can't see a reason to recommend LL over ACKS, for example, because ACKS is a superset of the same material. Out of the book, you could get the LL play experience from ACKS, but not vice-versa... and while a GM could write all that material themselves for LL, or grab it from elsewhere and integrate it into their campaign, it's a lot of work to do when someone else has already done it for you.

So not "the newer products are better!", but "the newer products provide more explicit support and resources!".

Quote from: Tavis;584501An event taking place in Settembri's mind is going to be hard to date precisely.

Heeheehee....

Quote from: Black Vulmea;584494Does it, really?

It does.

Quote from: Ladybird;584507But... these days, I can't see a reason to recommend LL over ACKS, for example, because ACKS is a superset of the same material. Out of the book, you could get the LL play experience from ACKS, but not vice-versa... and while a GM could write all that material themselves for LL, or grab it from elsewhere and integrate it into their campaign, it's a lot of work to do when someone else has already done it for you.

What is consistently missed here is that LL, S&W and OSRIC were never end onto themselves, UNLIKE the new games trying to be "things" apart from their genitors. The core, ultimate, main reason for LL, S&W and OSRIC to exist was to create indexes and compilations of OGL-compatible rules (note that OSRIC stands for Old School Reference Index and Compilation here - it's a VERY conscious choice of an acronym) so that the original games, namely Moldvay-Cook D&D, OD&D and AD&D First Ed could see new modules, supplements and variants published for them under the legal, explicit protection the OGL affords.

That's it. THAT was the point. OSRIC didn't aim to be a "game" onto itself. The first version was actually, noticeably NOT a full game. It was a collection of material destined to be referenced by later products as "OSRIC compatible" meaning in OGL-jargon "AD&D 1e compatible. It's only AFTER, once people started to actually play with these documents and went back to Stuart Marshall and Matt Finch (btw, note that Stuart is credited in OSRIC as the Editor, not the "author", which is a very conscious choice of terminology here again) complaining that these could be better used at an actual game table that the editors of the game, surprised, realized that some people were actually using OSRIC as a game, instead of the OGL reference document for publication it was (and still is) meant to be.

In that sense, the fact that now you'd recommend say ACKS instead of LL to your friend searching for an old school game to play doesn't invalidate the primary reason for the existence of LL at all. As far as their primary goal of reference documents for OGL publication is concerned, OSRIC, LL and S&W have been and still are brilliant successes. Whether they are played as "things" of their own is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things: fashions come and go, tastes differ, whatever. But what can not be taken away at this point is the ability of anyone on this planet to publish materials for old school D&D, B/X, OD&D and AD&D, under the explicit legal protection of the perpetual OGL. And that's the real win here, the win that was always intended in the first place.