Quote from: JimBobOzA Biter Non-Gamer (BNG) is a person who no longer games in a group, because every campaign they were ever in was a disaster, and every group imploded - naturally, they conclude that this means that gamers are all fucked in the head, and "gaming is broken."

There are also plenty of people who still want to play but don't because they can't find a group, don't have the time, or whatever.  Years ago, on rec.games.frp.gurps, S. John Ross pointed out that he could tell who was actually playing and who was just thinking about the game by the questions they asked.  People who are playing ask practical questions about things that actually come up during game sessions.  People who don't game tend to obsess over edge cases and "What if?" scenarios.  So even where they aren't bitter and would like to game, people who aren't actually gaming also color the discussions on a forum.

Certainly there are people who can't game, but would like to (Lonely & Lazy Gamers), and these are distinct in conversation style from those who do game, and like it (Normal Gamers). However, I'd rather sit around talking to LLGs than BNGs. It's a bit like when you go on a date with a woman for the first time - it's more pleasant talking to someone who is merely lonely or lazy, than someone who is lonely or lazy and bitter.

Which of course has nothing to do with combat in rpgs, maybe we should start another thread and stop derailing this one. I was just answering the question about what is a BNG.

Now Morrow, go make yourself useful and comment on my Cheap warp drives thread so I can make a new campaign to get over the trauma of the implosion of the last one

Quote from: JimBobOzNow Morrow, go make yourself useful and comment on my [ur=http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4198]Cheap warp drives[/url] thread so I can make a new campaign to get over the trauma of the implosion of the last one

Morrow does seem to be the go to guy, when a campaign needs a bit of rescuing...

Regards,
David R

Late to the thread.

Why avoid combat?  At it's most basic, combat expends resources, and those resources are better conserved.  The more you conserve your resources, the more you can do, and presumably the more you accomplish.

Also, since the early versions of D&D are the prototype for what we consider an RPG, we should look to AD&D1 for this reinforcement.  AD&D1 gave reward for treasure obtained.  While there were rewards for slaying monsters, those rewards were much smaller than those for merely grabbing the treasure.  With a good plan, the vast bulk of the reward could be obtained without slaying the monster guarding it.  And since the party had saved resources, they could proceed to the next encounter and the next potential reward.

So, from the beginning, avoiding combat was the sign of more intelligent, sophisticated, and more proficient play.  This mantra has been handed down to modern RPGs, but the original reward system reinforcing it has been removed.  So, if anything, the modern paradigm demonstrated by D&D3 and it's experience based on defeating monsters without discourages bypassing the monster to achieve the reward, as dealing with the monster directly is the reward.  So, the old version of what used to be intelligent play is rendered ineffective and what used to generally be considered "gung ho" and overly violent play is rewarded.

Quote from: jrientsThat's a horse of a different color from a Vampire chronicle where the GM expects everyone to talk out their little problems.

And this, comparatively, is a far cry from nearly every Vampire chronicle I've ever seen. Vampire is (or was, anyhow) quite combat-intensive by default, despite many claims to the contrary (there was even a special book of nothing but combat maneuvers).

Quote from: mrlostWell I tend to avoid it when possible. It probably is because I don't like violence or pretending to inflict violence on others, which is why most of my characters are pacifists (or are mostly all talk, or are cowards or otherwise not likely to murder anything).

Well, that almost explains it.  Though your favorite genre fiction (Heroes Die) includes epic, brutal, mind-blowing acts of violence.

So I'm a tad confused.

Quote from: jdrakehAnd this, comparatively, is a far cry from nearly every Vampire chronicle I've ever seen. Vampire is (or was, anyhow) quite combat-intensive by default, despite many claims to the contrary (there was even a special book of nothing but combat maneuvers).

Thus is the amusing paradox of WW's games.

In actual play, I've found them to be no less combat heavy than your average D&D game, completely in opposition to the supposedly "all about story and roleplaying" play that's held up as the ideal goal.

And yet even though that gameplay isn't actually happening, they hold it up like it is, and lord over D&D and the like for being "rollplaying" or whatever fucking stupid derogatory term they're using this week.

I should know.  I was one of those guys.  And I had a lot of friends.

Personally, I still think that Exalted came about as a sort of silent acknoledgement of this fact.  they created a new game designed expressly to let their fans revel in the powergaming they accused everyone else of being all about, while simultaneously feigning superiority because it was "their game".

Yup, like I've said before, Exalted is like the "Arts Channel" for gamers.

You know, the "Arts Channel"? That one, whatever it might be called in your neck of the woods, that at night is absolutely filled with pornography, but "artsy" pornography, so intellectualoid pretentious twits can wank while still claiming to look down at people who buy playboy or watch Debbie Does Dallas, because they're just "watching porn", while the art snobs are watching "art films"?

Exalted is exactly like that.  I'll never forget the claim one exalted swine said to me, which pretty much sums up their whole little sick delusional justification: "D&D is just POWERGAMING, while Exalted is a game about dealing with the issues and themes of having incredible power." :rolleyes:

Fucking idiots.

RPGPundit

On the subject of avoiding combat:

As a player: Good Boy!
As a DM: Bad Dawg!

Quote from: RPGPunditExalted is exactly like that.  I'll never forget the claim one exalted swine said to me, which pretty much sums up their whole little sick delusional justification: "D&D is just POWERGAMING, while Exalted is a game about dealing with the issues and themes of having incredible power." :rolleyes:

Exalted isn't really like that - whoever said that got it very wrong. Exalted is about hitting someone so hard that their fourth-cousin's great-great-great-grandmother's best friend's dog feels it.

EDIT: That sounds to me like the reaction of someone who has been told all these years that powergaming and munchkin characters are bad, then they run into a game that they like (Exalted) that glorifies all of that so they have to work it into their worldview somehow.

EDIT EDIT (I'm cleaning and thinking at the same time): The funny thing is that all of the gonzo things that you see in other roleplaying games that are generally thought to be too over the top - flying bears shooting lasers from their eyes, handguns that blow up skyscrapers, y'know Rifts and Synnabar and whatever else - have a perfectly good home in Exalted. Somehow, Exalted makes it cooler.

QuoteSomehow, Exalted makes it cooler.

No, it really doesn't.  Unless you've been drinking the "storyteller game" koolaid for the last ten years.

Quote from: J ArcaneNo, it really doesn't.  Unless you've been drinking the "storyteller game" koolaid for the last ten years.

That's bullshit too, though. I like Exalted a lot, and I'm not really a fanboy of any fucking stripe.

Quote from: Thanatos02That's bullshit too, though. I like Exalted a lot, and I'm not really a fanboy of any fucking stripe.

There's nothing about Exalted that other games haven't done before, and nothing about it that makes it any better than those games.

Quote from: J ArcaneThere's nothing about Exalted that other games haven't done before, and nothing about it that makes it any better than those games.

It's not a matter of the originality, it's a matter of the mixture. It's still not better, but it's certainly not any worse as a result.

Quote from: J ArcaneNo, it really doesn't.  Unless you've been drinking the "storyteller game" koolaid for the last ten years.

I dunno.  It has a pretty cool setting.  If only it could be easily de-coupled from its mechanics...