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Author Topic: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}  (Read 519 times)

GeekyBugle

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Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« on: October 11, 2021, 11:34:41 AM »
What the tin says, in a modern setting you have automatic weapons, that fire 10+ bullets per second.

For a full auto burst you would need to roll large quantities of dice.

How to have it without rolling a huge ammount of dice?

I have thought of rolling a d20 to see how many bullets hit an enemy: 1=5% of the bullets hit an enemy and so on. then roll to see who got hit and the damage.

If the number of enemies is great then roll in batches: The first 10 on the left are rolled together to see if any got hit by rolling a d10 and so on. then roll for damage for the batch. Rinse and repeat.

Thoughts? If you have/are using automatic weapons how do you handle it?
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tenbones

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2021, 11:58:07 AM »
The only way to do it is to abstract that automatic barrage into a discrete bonus.

Depending on your system that "action" should ideally take into account recoil, ammo usage, and damage and possible area of effect.


Pat

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2021, 11:58:21 AM »
Depends on whether you want some semblance of reality, or pure cinematism. Close in under ideal circumstances, fully automatic fire could be mildly useful, and might land a couple hits on a target, or allow you to spray a bunch of targets like with trench clearing. At range or with moving targets it spreads and creates a cone of fire which makes multiple hits unlikely, but could theoretically increase the chance of a single hit, especially by tracking to a target. But rapid semi-automatic fire is better. Suppressive fire can be effective, but that's more psychological than anything.

Ex-Delta Force, and helped design the weapon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cosc-RO_oMg&t=169s

GeekyBugle

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2021, 12:00:42 PM »
The only way to do it is to abstract that automatic barrage into a discrete bonus.

Depending on your system that "action" should ideally take into account recoil, ammo usage, and damage and possible area of effect.

Something like a directional explosion?
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

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GeekyBugle

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2021, 12:01:51 PM »
Depends on whether you want some semblance of reality, or pure cinematism. Close in under ideal circumstances, fully automatic fire could be mildly useful, and might land a couple hits on a target, or allow you to spray a bunch of targets like with trench clearing. At range or with moving targets it spreads and creates a cone of fire which makes multiple hits unlikely, but could theoretically increase the chance of a single hit, especially by tracking to a target. But rapid semi-automatic fire is better. Suppressive fire can be effective, but that's more psychological than anything.

Ex-Delta Force, and helped design the weapon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cosc-RO_oMg&t=169s

Realism is overrated, more pulpish, cinematic FTW.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

David Johansen

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2021, 12:04:51 PM »
Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes rolls 1d6 for every six bullets.

GURPS used to have a chart that compared margin of success for each group of 4 bullets.

Twilight 2000 second edition rolled for each bullet but applied difficulty modifiers to the number of bullets instead of the target number.

Another variant is one extra roll to hit per n bullets which is basically how Mutant Chronicles did it.

HERO and GURPS 4th edition use margin of success divided by a number.  In HERO it's 2.  In GURPS you get a bonus to hit based on the number of bullets and a divisor based on recoil.

For Galaxies In Shadow, I've played with a lot of ideas but finally settled on dividing the chance to hit by the number of bullets and dividing the roll to hit by the result.  Admittedly that's a game where I said "screw it, just do the math" as a core principle so it'll never be popular.

For most games, offering the option of a bonus to hit one target (small arc spray), a damage multiplier after armour against one target (focused spray), and multiple targets (wide arc spray) is probably adequate.  Palladium and Rolemaster Standard System both do it that way.

 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 12:06:54 PM by David Johansen »
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Pat

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2021, 12:05:32 PM »
Depends on whether you want some semblance of reality, or pure cinematism. Close in under ideal circumstances, fully automatic fire could be mildly useful, and might land a couple hits on a target, or allow you to spray a bunch of targets like with trench clearing. At range or with moving targets it spreads and creates a cone of fire which makes multiple hits unlikely, but could theoretically increase the chance of a single hit, especially by tracking to a target. But rapid semi-automatic fire is better. Suppressive fire can be effective, but that's more psychological than anything.

Ex-Delta Force, and helped design the weapon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cosc-RO_oMg&t=169s

Realism is overrated, more pulpish, cinematic FTW.
Then treat it as a cone of fire. Up close when it doesn't have time to spread, you can pump a lot of lead into a single target, or spray it across several. Further away, you could increase the chance to hit, especially against moving targets, but more shots will just miss, and spraying a group will be fairly random. Some kind of morale effect for suppressive fire, forcing people to take cover. Maybe a flat roll to hit for everyone, with some kind of random miss chance based on range.

tenbones

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2021, 12:27:37 PM »
The only way to do it is to abstract that automatic barrage into a discrete bonus.

Depending on your system that "action" should ideally take into account recoil, ammo usage, and damage and possible area of effect.

Something like a directional explosion?

Sure. The abstraction of full-auto in the cinematic is a person unloading a bunch of damage at a target(s).

In reality - it's more about area-denial. In fact unless you're using it for suppression, full-auto in real life is not a good for accuracy or for your ammo. But it's scary if you're getting shot at.

I'd figure out the level of "swath" you want to allow for the effect. I'd apply a damage value bonus based on the "Full Auto" mode, and then decide what the penalty/bonus is to hit targets in that swath. Again it depends on if you've got recoil rules etc. The degree of "realism" will be a big impact if you want that detail.

I think you should consider "suppressive fire" as either 1) and option for full-auto or 2) a separate mode itself. Where Suppressive fire covers an area where anyone walking through that cone has a distinct chance to get hit.


HappyDaze

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2021, 12:53:48 PM »
Use the Missile Hit tables from BattleTech. You have tables for batches of 2, 4, 5, 6, 10, 15, and 20 in the basic game, and there are probably other products that add in other values (particularly 3).

GeekyBugle

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2021, 01:18:38 PM »
@Pat & @Tenbones

Okay, so you roll as many d6 as one bullet does? and multiply by the ammount of bullets? Then divide between the number of targets in the cone?

@HappyDaze I don't own that game.
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Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

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HappyDaze

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2021, 01:28:33 PM »
@HappyDaze I don't own that game.
Google "BattleTech Missile Hit Table" (or, apprently in some newer products, "BatteTech Cluster Hit Table") where you'll see a 2d6 based distribution of how many missiles (or cluster munitions) hit from a given salvo. Accurate groupings can get a +1 to +3 on the table, inaccurate groupings a -1 to -3 on the table. The inverse modifier can apply on the attack roll if you like (so that a very wide burst increases the overall chance of a hit but will likely result in fewer missiles/clusters hitting). It's a very simple subsystem to pull out of BattleTech and add into almost any ruleset.

Ratman_tf

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2021, 01:42:32 PM »
Depends on whether you want some semblance of reality, or pure cinematism. Close in under ideal circumstances, fully automatic fire could be mildly useful, and might land a couple hits on a target, or allow you to spray a bunch of targets like with trench clearing. At range or with moving targets it spreads and creates a cone of fire which makes multiple hits unlikely, but could theoretically increase the chance of a single hit, especially by tracking to a target. But rapid semi-automatic fire is better. Suppressive fire can be effective, but that's more psychological than anything.

Ex-Delta Force, and helped design the weapon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cosc-RO_oMg&t=169s

Realism is overrated, more pulpish, cinematic FTW.

Cone attack. Every target takes an attack roll at a small penalty (or makes a save, I like the idea of making a save better) each target gets hit once, up to the number of bullets fired.
Burst on one target is a damage bonus to the attack roll per round fired.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 01:44:28 PM by Ratman_tf »
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Snowman0147

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2021, 02:29:48 PM »
I base damage like this.  Arc, blast, and single. 

Single we all know so I won't  waste your time on that.  Well unless your pumping a dude full of lead.  In that case just increase damage modifier by one per ten rounds of ammunation.  That way a rifle that has a 30 round mag can easily do +3 damage modifier.  Then again...  My games are low HP like the max is 30.  For high HP game make it two bulllets for +15 damage modifier.

Arc is for 45 to 90 degree attacks.  Only the enemy with the highest AC is rolled against.  On a successful hit look at your damage die and how many dice your rolling.  The number of people hit are equal to half the damage die times the number of dice.  So a 3d6 attack is 3 x 3 = 9 people hit.  Then just roll damage as normal.  That is your classical spray and pray.

Blast is for explosions.  The only difference is that it uses the whole die times dice to see how many people are hit.  So a 3d6 is 3 x 6 = 18 people are hit.

tenbones

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2021, 03:29:46 PM »
Thats a good extrapolation.

There has to be some huge diminishing returns for autofire. A 10-to-1 ratio isn't bad at all.

So I'd figure out some "generic" value - maybe based on caliber, and treat it as a shotgun blast with very long range, if I'm being slightly lazy.

OR

you could do a Roll over mechanic, if you're feeling gritty. And figure that for every increment rolled over your target number that many bullets hit within the swath. Divide those hits by targets and roll damage for each hit.

You'll have to determine what those increments are.


hedgehobbit

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Re: Auto-Fire without 30 dice, howto Maybe {NO POLITICS}
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2021, 04:43:11 PM »
Here's a chart from the US War Department's Field Manual for wargame Umpires (FM 105-5 March 1944)



The chart shows the effective "firepower" value for various weapons ranging from semi-auto rifles to heavy, belt-fed machine guns. These number would be a decent approximation for "number of attacks" for these weapons. It's still rolling lots of dice but tops out at 10 in the rare case your firing a heavy machinegun. Note that the "Automatic Rifle" in this case is a BAR which is a magazine-fed light machine gun. I use these number IMC for PC's shooting.


When NPCs shoot at the PCs, however, I switch over to a save-based system. Depending on how many bad guys are shooting, I'll designate an area of the battle as "Hot". If a PC does anything in this area other than hide in cover, the PC needs to take a saving throw to avoid getting hit. The difficulty of the saving throws (I used DC-based saves) is based on the number of bad guys shooting at them.